Quote - Quote - "See, we can agree when you don't state personal opinion and try to pass them off as facts. :-)"

Well, my conclusions were a personal opinion. LOL :-)
And I don't think I ever tried to pass my opinions as facts. It is only your opinion that I did that. :-) And it's only my opinion that I didn't. LOL

I wouldn't want my computer only for Vue but also for 4 more apps that form my workflow (GeoControl, Poser, Zbrush, Photoshop). But, for all of these, the factors that I mentioned are more than enough and so my conclusion still stand valid, I would say (flag: my opinion! :-)). I think that most Vue hobbyists, like myself, do not use a lot more apps than these, if that many.

I must say this was a rather intesting discussion. Thanks for that! :-)

No problem, glad you found it educational.

Now, that you know I won the Apple debate you started with by sighting personal conjecture over FACT in your posts (about Apple), I wonder if you will be professional enough to concede you were wrong about your Apple statements (nothing to do with Vue)?

Also, an apology for making it personal and questioning my education background (something I didn't do) would be nice. Then we can sign off and shake hands on this like any professional would.

Quote - Quote - "The i7 is pretty comparable in doing rendering[...]"

LCBoliou, that was the key sentence for me, thanks.

If I'm buying a computer for Vue, I don't care at all about the other stuff that I don't need (being a workstation instead of a PC, having aluminum case, being used as server, etc). For Vue, my main concerns are:

• good render speed,
• good memory and
• good OpenGL implementation.

All the rest is meaningless, from Vue point of view.

Let's not forget the original question, which was centered precisely around Vue. So, for Vue, both an i7 HP or the Mac Pro would render at aproximately the same speed, according to your statement. Because you can choose the memory and graphic card you want, I conclude once again that it's better to buy an i7 HP because it's equally fast and it's much cheaper.

So, I conclude from your statements (LCBoliou's and 3DNeo's) that:

• if I would like to buy a very good graphic workstation I would buy a Mac Pro, as the best value for money.
• if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.

So, thanks, that's a wrap for me! :-)
 

I**'m pleasantly surprised you actually did not take words out of context or make up your own personal conjecture vs known FACT as in all your prior posts, especially Apple.**

To be clear though -

• if I would like to buy a very good graphic workstation I would buy a Mac Pro, as the best value for money.

Yes that is CORRECT.  You would use it for other apps that are 64 bit on the Mac OS platform like C4D and others. Then Bootcamp for the few apps that you want to use that are not 64 bit yet on the Mac OS if you wanted.

• if I want to buy a computer for Vue, an HP i7 (for example) would be roughly equivalent to a Mac Pro regarding the main factors that are relevant for Vue, at a much lower price, and so it's a much better choice.

If its VALUE over performance you are after and you ONLY wanted it for Vue and NOTHING else mattered at all, that may be true at this time. However readers should note there are not many technical benchmarks out yet on the new Intel Nehalem CPUs. The speed increase is significant on some reports, but too early to know about the price/performce ratio yet cross platform (Windows or Mac), not to mention the graphic card specs and amount of memory, etc. which could raise the cost.

See, we can agree when you don't state personal opinion and try to pass them off as facts. :-)

Quote - Actually the new Mac Pro has 8-cores (2X4 core Xeon “Nehalem” processors) which, along with 8 virtual Hyperthreaded cores results in 16 "cores." The i7 is 1X4-cores plus 4 Hyperthreaded cores, for 8 "cores."
 Let's not compare Apples to oranges though. The Xeon “Nehalem” processor is not, I repeat, NOT the same as the i7.  The i7 is pretty comparable in doing rendering -- clock for clock, but the mac is a workstation level PC, and one could use the Xeon “Nehalem” processor based Mac as a powerful server. The Mac Pro is first and foremost a powerful graphics workstation. BTW, 3D applications like Vue are graphics applications -- just not 2D graphics applications.
My Mac Pro is not the Xeon “Nehalem” processor base Mac, but the Jan 2008 model. Doesn't matter to me, the 8-cores still render like about 16-cores worth of RenderCow activity (RenderCow is Not very efficient!).
The only significant difference between a brown box PC and my Mac Pro is the OS. Except, my Mac is also the most stable Windows platform I've ever used.

Again, I think this is well stated and you make some valid points. I don't know how many times I have pointed the same thing out in this thread about the fact I use Windows 7 too and love the fact you get a HIGHLY reliable platform for both OS.

Quote - Well, fact also is that an i7 from HP costs $1460 (list price) whereas a MacPro costs $3300 (list price). I haven't seen any comparative benchmarks but I doubt that the performance of the mac pro is more than double the one of HP. Has anyone seen a benchmark?
Of course, HP is just an example, there are other hardware makers who offer similar stuff. That's another advantage of PC: there's competition between hardware producers, whereas Apple is alone doing their machines.

Compare the specs, enough said there. Doesn't matter anyway because it's personal conjecture vs direct quote from Maximum PC Microsoft interview where even their own company admits the pricing is "OK".

And until now I still haven't seen my list of arguments being defeated... :-)

**If you would read again, which obviously you have not, this debate you started was due to FACT vs personal conjecture. What happened is it was YOU and just a few others that split this thread off into two different topics:

1. What the OP stated about a "Ultimate Vue Computer" and

2. Yourself and a minority voice of others passing off your personal bias and conjecture about Apple computers as if it were FACTS.

I have yet to see you or anyone else defeat my FACTS against the statements you have made about Apple because they are backed by links and references.
**
Regarding consumer base, because it's so small, it's only natural that it grows. Any smaller and Apple would disappear... ;-)

**Again, personal conjecture, NOT FACT. As I point out before which you obviously missed or didn't bother reading:

www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41291/140/

It's from a 3rd party source, NOT Apple so you can't use that excuse any more. Of course it's just one of several.**

No I have not heard of them. That's not saying they aren't legit or good, but I don't have first hand knowledge of that site.

Also, you have the great video tutorials by AsileFX and GeekAtPlay.com

If you are looking for on-line course, try Peggy Walters. She is here on this site at times and does a nice on-line course I have been told by several for Vue 7. Her next one is in May this year. You can do a member search for "Peggy_Walters" and send her a PM to find out more.

Best of luck and happy learning.

Here is a little tid-bit that is one of several examples that support yet another statment I was referring to in prior posts. Like I have always said, it's not about one platform vs another it's about knowing what has been said and published in magazines and podcasts so misinformation is not given to those that don't read all this material on a regular basis.

Source: Maximum PC October 2008
Title: Inside Microsofts $6 Billion Failure
Interview: Eric Lustig - Product Manager at Microsoft. Responsible for "Windows Fundumentals"

"He conceded that Apple appeals to more and more consumers because the hardware is slick, the price is OK, and Apple doesn't annoy it's customers (or allow third parties to).

This is a direct contradiction to some posts here regarding Apple prices and acknowldgement of the growing consumer base stright from Microsoft. A great read and very insigful feature with lots of comparisons. He really gives some rather candid ansers and there are many comparisons done too that deal with Visa vs XP.

As the other poster said in his links, make sure and try the free demo first, I would say the PLE as it has recently been updated according to e-on with the current patches (it was not before a few weeks ago). It gives you a full working copy of Vue 7 for you to try. However, you can not use any of your saved work according to the pop-up on a real copy of the software meaning that file is tied to the PLE. Also, you will get overlays on your images rendered large size with "e-on". I can't recall if that was from the first day or after 30 days but it is there so you can't use it to do renders and export the images.

As to learning, I too will fully admit I didn't start using it until about 4 months ago in full earnest. It's not REAL hard to pick up and there are some GREAT videos to help. Like anything else, you just have to dig into it. I would HIGHLY recommend both AsileFX and GeekAtPlay as they do top queality video tutorials and you learn a lot from them. Vue has good community support with those two companies.

Links:

tinyurl.com/clje2d

tinyurl.com/c4wty3

Good luck and happy rendering.

**See my prior post to you for the intro, I will refute this post with KNOWN FACT point-by-point below where possible to correct your personal conjecture. I remain shocked you would post this without validating the statements first because they are glaringly inaccurate.
**
Commonality  (easy to get, easy to ge tparts or repairs, nearest MAC shop is 30 odd miles away, dozens of PC shops in between, here)

**It depends on your country and location within as to this statement. Mac is just as easy to get parts for either direct from Apple or through others that have been around awhile like OWC (Other World Computing). I can have a part here within days. Also this depends upon if you have Apple Care or not as this is no hassle at all if you do.

Also, most (not all) PCs have 3rd rate support and the workers read a script. They are mostly foreign based outside the USA too. Apple Care is not and you can talk to one of their "Genius" people too at a Mac Store or online.**

lower price (you do NOT see local Tescos bulk pricing MACs! As an example.)

**Nor will you and thankful for that too I am. They will never be at a bulk store because that is not their demographic model and they know who their market is very well. It goes back to what myself and others have said, you get what you pay for. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy.
**
Can't play most games on MACs. WHy have consoles when most games are better on PCs?

**Fact vs Conjecture > Fact is Mac can play games rather an Mac Pro, iMac or Macbook. As pointed out many times, the value comes into play when you can use "Bootcamp" and run Windows in it's native environment. Buy whatever games you want made for Windows and there is no issues at all. You must not have read any of my prior staments on this.

Why have consoles when most games are better on PCs you ask is because of several known reasons. First, the game consoles are geared to hard-core gamers or teens and the trend has shifted in that direction as market share shows. Magazines web sites and podcasts like PC Gamer, OXM, the Firing Squad, Gamespot, etc. have shown this trend for some time now. Also, Microsoft has done a fine job with their 360 Live support and built a better networked gaming community there, even better than PC. Sony is catching up, but still lags behind. Another HUGE factor is game companies make a lot more money on platforms and then port over to PC.
**
Many apps don't come for MACs, and why have ot go through hoops AND buy WIndows for the MAC to run them?

**FACT vs Conjecture> Most apps do come for Mac now, very few don't have any support at all. In fact Autodesk has started to support Mac now more than ever as more professionals switch platforms for production work. You may refer to 3D World #114 for the full column.

Not sure what "hoops" you mean to buy Windows as it's a mouse click away at Amzon.com and I can have it here 2 Days with free shipping on Amazon Prime. A personal choice though for why you would buy Windows is because you would get the best of both worlds if you wanted it. As I said before I am running the current build of Windows 7 now.**

64 bit.

FACT> Mac is too, especially under Snow Leopard. Check out this link for details explaining this fact. www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/28/road_to_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_64_bit_to_the_kernel.html

Etc So I stick with PCs, yes it's taken Microsnot years to get a decent OS, sigh, but MAC's aren't all that either, the Amiga was more than 10 years ahead of both of 'em 20 years ago!

**The Macs are for reasons mentioned in prior posts. You are correct about the Amiga though. I worked for Commodore during my early years as a tech writer and that is where I made lots of friends, some still in the industry today. In fact there are many things copied by Microsoft and Apple on that platform. Do you recall "Sticky RAM" and the GUI that looked sort of like Windows 3.11 years before? Oh yes and 20MB hard drives were insane along with 2MB of memory because that's all anyone would ever need. The good'ol days indeed.
**
If folk like MACs, good, everyone ot their own :) and competition keeps that bunch in Microsoft moving (however slowly).
But for the average person, MACs aren't all that, like it or not.

**The data from the news sources like those sighted in prior posts here by me suggest otherwise. In fact, the Mac is the fastest growing platform for the average user, especially their "Macooks and iMac" lines. Most students entering college now have a Mac.
**

Less security threats , yeah tha'ts a good point, bar that...take your money and go see how easy it is ot get each, and what you get for your money, in the REAL world, NOT the world of computer specialists in the world's major cities!

So, think of Joe Public, guys, when you are fighting , 'cause they usually haven't got a CLUE  ;)

munches popcorn wahhcing the fight :p

silverblade:

**I would not have thought someone like yourself would have made those two posts as written. They show lapses in known facts vs interjection of your personal biased views and even have hostility in some of them. It's even more confounding as we have talked before and you seem like someone that is trying to give to the community yet somehow has done what a select few have done and made personal conjecture vs known fact. No one has or can prove me wrong on my technical statements because everything I have said is at present date backed by many media sources which I have already sighted in prior posts above so I won't repeat. If others can back up any statements with known facts sighting long standing news media outlets then by all means use them when posting as I always read or listen to them because technology is constantly changing.

So, I will challenge you on your personal views on a point-by-point basis below.**

LCBoliou
majority of Vue users are Joe Public, not pros, and E-On better remember that (regarding the utterly asinine price Vue has reached for it's more "complete", ha what irony!!, versions. Damn foolish of them to push Vue's price that high, sigh.)

**Really? This coming from you sounds petty. Your use of colorful language aside, it serves as no purpose here. The goal of any company is to make money and prices will always rise. You have a rather hostile view to this company for someone wanting to use it. Setting their price to $1,000 for the Vue Infinite and about $600 more for "extreme" is not that unreasonable. They are aiming for a high-end market, not a cheaper Poser market. It takes money to put together a design team to come out with a new version, add features, fix bugs, etc. so without money there will be no Vue product at all. Also, compared to C4D, Maya and Max it is still within price.

As to the statement Vue users are Joe public not pros is something I think e-on may disagree with. Joe public as you say does not use 3D software and uses their computers for basic tasks.**

Most folk are not computer experts. It takes folk time to learn about them, many folk don't want to learn that stuff, in fact why should they have to at all?! Ever asked yourself that?
All they (Joe Public) should need is just enough to deal with their computers, they want the "meat and potatoes", not digging the damn things up or slaughtering 'em! hehe

The general computer users are not computer experts on that much I will agree. But saying "many folk don't want to learn that stuff, in fact why should they have to at all?" is something a lot of educated people would laugh at. They are not toasters and why they should need to is simply so you won't be ignorant of basic tasks of how computers are used in general. Also, it give your "Joe public" at least a very basic skill set in the work force as it is common place now that at least some skills with computers are required.

It's ridiculous really, that you have to spend so much hassle getting a good computer, setting it up right, spending so much money...bah, bloody stupid, no wonder many pople preffer consoles, phones and other systems for their games, browsing etc.

**There is no hassle if you have the proper knowledge to get you by. As to people preferring consoles to computers for games that market trend has been there for years. I grant you Microsoft has made a darn good console and is the leader in on-line gaming. Only now is Sony starting to catch up. In fact, the GUI to their 360 reminds me a lot of Apple and Sony reminds me a lot of Linux.

In terms of spending so much money that depends on what you are using it for. Computers have used Moore's Law combined with ecnomic inflation to net a typical cost of about $2000 for a typical system.

Of course you can avoid the headaches of setup and setting it up right if you buy a Mac Pro. :-)
**
Of course to solve the

Someone may come along with a much better, cheaper system and blow the Mac and PC world's to hell and gone, and good thing too! Long as it runs Vue I'd be happy ;)

Anything is possible but it will be some time if ever this happens because of how most are dug in and the vast majority of software for the Mac and PC. The best i would say is a Linux OS provided it had the support of all the developers and professionals.

MACs used to dominate graphics for 2 reasons:
standardized colour system
Photoshop.
Not been that way for a while though.

"Mediocrity" ... hello, I've got news for you, Her Majesty the Queen, dictators, presidents and everyone else: we're all Human, we all have the same biological processes.
So elitism be damned, we all need to poo! :p

A computer is just a tool, nothing "Individual" about it, unless you have sat down and built one yourself from a Millenium Falcon toy, or some such (In which case, well bloody done, mate!).

It's what you DO with a tool that makes it individual, it's what you do in life that earns respect, not what computer you own, clothes you wear or any such like frippery.

Agreed. That is why I am disappointed to read your words here. Statements like those blasting e-on software seems uncalled for at best.

I don't mind if folk love MACs, hey knock yerself out, if you're happy, great! :)

Agreed and vice versa as I said a number of times.

But until someone can knock Microsnot into the dustbin, which I wouldn't mind at all, AND gave us a free, stable, secure OS that will work with our apps....we're stuck.

Alas, like it or not, Microsnot set a standard around which a coherent system could evolve. Apple had a silly closed in monopoly that damn near wiped them out years ago, "exclusivity" = mass extinction at some point, as history teaches us :D

**FACT vs Incorrect information > Fact is it was Apple that set the standard upon which a "coherent system" can be built for the public when they introduced their very first Mac. It was Microsoft which later came out with Windows, a GUI on top of DOS format like Apple. To this day, Microsoft has been copying what Apple has done and is even more evident with their Windows 7. This even translates over to their product like the Zune.
**
**It was not and is not a closed system for Apple that gave them such struggles. To understand this you have to know both companies history here. Other factors were in play. Apple computer let Steve Jobs go and that is the primary reason for what nearly cost them their company. The other factors included the cash flow on hand when the ".com" bubble burst. There are many articles a few books and even a few audio books at "audible.com" on how Apple turned things around, the return of Jobs and more. If you love computers you will find it enjoyable.
**

Today, what we all need, ALL  of us, is a free, stable, secure, fast, effcient OS, that works with MS products and that can evolve with hardware improvements.

It's a rip off that we have to pay for an OS, something which you simply cannot do without, and which the 2 monopolies have made a shambollick mess of, compared to the openess of the Linux crowd.
I don't use Linux, I want as little hassle as possible, and as much compatability as possible. Otherwise I'd be all over it like a rash! Linux does indeed show the way.

**Agreed about Linux. However as you may know Mac OS X has a Unix underpinning as opposed to the kernal in Windows providing a more robust and stable foundation. Certified "Unix 03"

Here is a factual link to back it up, others can be provided.

**en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X

renders up a scene of a giant airship dropping hundreds of tons of poo on Microsoft and Apple HQs! :tt2:

So me, as an "individual", I don't like any of the monopolies, but I'll use what works and is cheap.
Yes I'm cheap, damn right I'm cheap!! Because I don't have much money, and what I do have I'll spend on Vue and content, rather than an extra £500 to £2000 on a MAC! :lol:
Man, £1400 for 64 bit Vista rig with 8 gigs was a PIA to pay, but, it is a huge improvement.

If Blender was like Vue, I'd be all over that, too. But it's about as much fun to use as covering yourself in chocolate and kicking your toe up a hungry hippopotamus's bum! :D

And now, for something completely different!

On a less silly note...have you or anyone else compared an Apple 8 core, versus a dual Xeon i7 for render speeds? :)

Look for a report on 3D World, they said coming soon. There have been tests done by Toms Hardware and some others but not sure about render speeds tested. Will have to look that up.

Quote - You two debating over Mac vs PC are ruining what could be potentially a very interesting and useful thread....

Since a Mac is a Mac and a PC can vary in it's hardware configuration from computer to computer as there is no single PC company or builder as there is in the Mac world...let's just drop Macs from this thread altogether... And let's get back to providing the information the original poster asked for...

Cheers

Ken

Trying not to clutter anymore, but I thought you deserved a reply.

I understand your view point but have received several PMs supporting me and find it to be educational. One thing I have done if you follow my posts is provide known facts sighting multiple publications and podcasts. For me, it is not about Mac vs PC but rather people wanting to ignore known valid sources of technical information. This makes it difficult because just a few select people want to make conjecture based on their own personal views. What this leads to is someone reading this thread getting wrong facts and data which may lead them to believe those are true if no one challenges them factually.

The other thing is I have not made personal attacks upon others education, personal attacks, etc. unlike a select few here that are ruining it with those comments making it personal.

As I said, I have gotten several positeve feedback on this via PM as most here know my professionalism. I have and will continue to help others if I can with anything I am capable of doing and confident in. That means both Windows and Mac alike.

Happy rendering.

Quote - Well, I do think education has something to do with knowledge. I have no degree, but work at the largest nuclear power station in the U.S. with instrumentation and controls. My work often involves PLCs (ladder logic programming, as well as computer control systems). I also worked in aerospace, materials research, and worked with analytical instrumentation. I worked with computers since the DEC PDP-11 LSI series, Modcomp, tape readers, drum memory, etc..

So do I get lambasted because I've been a science geek most of my life?

The integrated Macs are not so hot for the $$, but the Mac Pro is entirely different. It's a rendering monster, and is built with an aluminum chassis that is about twice as thick as the Chinese stuff sold all over the web. The keyboard is solid aluminum, but I don't like the feel of the keys. The mouse is...a stupid, but "cool" design. Overall, the computer is the best built PC box I've ever owned. And, the Mac OS is much nicer, albiet, lacking a 64-bit version of Vue. Using Bootcamp to run a Vue sesion is no big deal for me.

Precisely and well stated. There are only a couple of people that are making this personal and refusing to accept known facts and read the actual statements made by others like myself. I have been misquoted, my education questioned, personally insulted and even baited into a flame war.

I think me and you both agree, as I said here many times, it is of no concern or matter to me personally what you use. But known facts are just that and you can't make up your own conjecture to fit your personal views.

This is still a valuable thread as I have been thanked by several members here via PM for taking the time to give such detailed information. Again, all of this can be supported by educating yourself with publications/podcasts liike: Maximum PC, Mac World, Tekzilla, Toms Hardware, TWIT (This Week In Tech), Macbreak Weekly, etc.

Here is yet another supported fact outside Mac only publications on market share. Windows losing market share to Mac and Linux. www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41291/140/

Happy rendering.

I am glad to hear the good news and wish you all the best in your renders. Post some in the gallery when you can so we can see some too.

Congrats and enjoy.

I certainly will do so and wish you and their family all the best. May peace and comfort be with you during this troubled time.

All my best.

Quote - Quote - "FACT: Mac users now take up 12% market share, NOT 3.2% as you quoted. Source, Mac World Magazine, Macbreak Weekly and others."

So, you go to Mac magazines to know the Mac market share... ;-)
I rest my case now without even needing to say anything...

Quote - "Sorry, but I won't debate this as obviously you have no intent on reading actual facts from other media sources than myself in the points I have made."

Again, what facts have you stated that could help the decision to purchase a Vue computer?

Quote - "In order to understand this you must know the way development teams are implemented and work."

:-)  Actually, I'm the leader of an IT department which includes a development team. I think I know how a development team works. And I also know that outsourcing costs money. And I know that benefits must outweigh the costs for every business decision. So, my conclusion stands perfectly valid.

Quote - "The figure you quoted about PC users are largely from the average Joe and NOT the high-end users like myself that make up those statistics."

So what? My point was about "de facto" standards. "De facto" standards are not created by "high-end users" (whatever that means) but rather by the consumers (to which you call "average Joe").

Quote - "The Mac can run nearly any OS, NOT a PC."

That is obviously untrue. You should check your facts. You probably mean that a PC can't run OS X. That's hardly a disadvantage... :-)
But even if you were right and a Mac can run nearly any OS and a PC can't, how does that benefit the average consumer? Better still, how does that benefit a Vue user?

About prices, I won't even argue more. Just go to a shop and compare prices.
Your comparison Ferrari - Chevy... The comparison is obviously incorrect because a PC can be as high-end as you choose it to be.
But if it were correct, I can honestly tell you that I'd prefer a Chevy than a Ferrari for my daily travels. :-) A Ferrari could be good to show-off and have some fun but, in the end of the day, it's going from point A to point B with reasonable prices that really matters. Gaining a few seconds in my 10km from home to work at the expense of a much higher invoice makes no business sense whatsoever. So, thanks for the comparison, it helped my case! :-)

Quote - "It seems to me like I have hit a nerve that is not a-typical of forums on the net when someone tries to explain facts, that have even been reported by many technical news media outlets."

Again, what facts have you brought that could help the decision of a Vue user who wants to buy a computer?

Quote - "All this talk has no regard to personal choice and use as now many times and was ignored, use what you like, it's YOUR MONEY."

You keep saying that, which reminds me of some business consultants I met. :-)
They give the advise and then step back. If the customer followed the advise and it proved to be right, they're fine. If the advise proved to be wrong, they say "I told you that it was your decision".
It's nice to always be on the safe side... :-)

"You speak as if your knowledge is so great that you know the ultimate truth. You know for sure what countless experts have discussed before and have not agreed on. You are the ultimate expert. Ok."

From this moment on I could not take you seriously or put validity behind your comments. It is obvious you have a bias here and can't support your statements with facts. At no time did I ever say I was an "ultimate expert", those are your words that you are using to validate a slanted view of bias to mine and making conjecture.

You also are clearly making up your own facts to suite your personal views as you refuse to believe in them even when valid news media sources are quoted. Again, this validates all I stated because you choose your own opinion over a fully reputable source.

I find it interesting that only a couple of people want to draw me into some sort of flame type wars as you obviously want to insight a personal attack here. However, I will not be party to any such thing and have spent more than enough time on this trying to help. Most have been very kind and responded quite favorably. To them I say thank you and am glad to know most users are professionals in our community.

Signing off this thread, best wishes to all.

Quote - > Quote - Quote - "Sorry, but I don't get into debates like this as I have pointed out my credentials which speak for themself. They are based on known facts and have nothing to do with personal feelings."

You speak as if your knowledge is so great that you know the ultimate truth. You know for sure what countless experts have discussed before and have not agreed on. You are the ultimate expert. Ok.

Quote - "... as I said before, their OS has a better kernal than Windows"
 
Admitting this is true (whatever "better" means in this context...), how does that benefit the normal user? The user doesn't see it. The user sees the "graphical user interface", or GUI. And 96.8% of all personal computers in the world are Windows (95% in USA). So, why even start to get used to a new GUI that so few people in the world use? During the course of a normal life, it's much more probable to accidentaly run into a PC than a Mac (at a future job, at a friend's house, etc). I don't see how having a better kernel (assuming it's true) justifies any choice, when confronted with the power of numbers. Like it or not, Windows is a "de facto" standard, whereas Mac is a deviation, a niche. We all know the disadvantages of going for non-standards.
 
Does having a better kernel could translate into real benefits? For example, speed or security. Regarding speed, there are several benchmarks available that state otherwise. On the same hardware, Vista runs faster than OS X. Regarding security, with the proper care (regular update, antivirus and firewall) there's no advantage to OS X. I had PC's all my life and never had any security problem.
 
 
Quote - "In terms of Vue and 64bit on the Mac, I am hoping Vue 8 will address that."
 
Hope... Is that really a purchase criteria? :-)
 
 
Quote - "However, it's more of having the programming talent in place and the resources to do it because there is no reason it can't be done right now to a certain degree."
 
So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs...
 
 
Anyway, regardlessly of which OS or hardware is "better" in the general sense, the thread title mentions "perfect Vue computer". So, general sense is not relevant. Focus is Vue.
Let's see:

• Not taking hope as a criteria, can Vue run on 64 bits in OS X? No. Can it run on 64 bits in Windows? Yes. Is this important for Vue? Yes! Comfortable memory space is fundamental for Vue.
• Does Vista have problems? Yes. Does Vue work great on Vista? Yes, as many people will testify (me included). So, does it matter if Vista has problems? No.
• Is OS X "better" than Windows? I don't know. Does it matter? No, because user can't see it, particularly if he wants to run Vue in 64 bits.
• Does OS X have more authoring and media tools? Yes. Does it matter for Vue? No.
• Is a Mac more elegant than a PC? Maybe. Is that relevant for Vue? No!
• Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price.
• Can a Mac run Windows? Yes. But if we run Windows+Vue on a Mac we actually ended up buying two operating systems: OS X (that we never use) and Windows. Does this sound like good business logic? No.
   

Sorry, but I won't debate this as obviously you have no intent on reading actual facts from other media sources than myself in the points I have made.

FACT: Mac users now take up 12% market share, NOT 3.2% as you quoted. Source, Mac World Magazine, Macbreak Weekly and others.

"So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs..."

WRONG: FACT - In order to understand this you must know the way development teams are implemented and work. Most companies, rather e-on or others rarely maintain a full time technical team of program coders. Typically, this means that when a company wants to put out another release and has looked at the market they hire additional programmers to augment at that time. The reason e-on and others would and are investing more now than ever in the Mac platform is because they and other developers know that more serious users are moving to a Mac. The figure you quoted about PC users are largely from the average Joe and NOT the high-end users like myself that make up those statistics.

"Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price."

As mentioned before, you pay for what you get. The Mac can run nearly any OS, NOT a PC. Also, the service with Apple Care is much better and American based support. I don't know of any "render farm" that could be done on that scale. You would need to network at least 2 of those along with a good 16GB of RAM each to produce a farm with good speed. So about $10K should do the job. Note, Leo Leporte is running a 2009 Mac Pro that is going to just sit in his closet for a video server type of system. Price was just north of $5K. Also, that price you quoted on the PC was in fact cheaper as has always been the case with Apple products in comparison. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy.

It seems to me like I have hit a nerve that is not a-typical of forums on the net when someone tries to explain facts, that have even been reported by many technical news media outlets, yet conflicts with their personal bias. As I said before, use what you want, makes no difference to any of us here. I am simply stating known scientific facts that were also backed up by others. All this talk has no regard to personal choice and use as mentioned now many times and was ignored, use what you like, it's YOUR MONEY.

Best of luck and happy rendering.