OK, here's something that goes along with what I was saying could be done -

"A new technology called "Grand Central" will make it easy for developers to create programs that take full advantage of the power of multi-core Macs. Also introduced is Open Compute Library (OpenCL), which extends the computing power of the GPU to any application written with OpenCL commands."

Now, this is just the first step. Over the next few years it will be multiple cores and CPUs over clock speed. So, the HIGH-END desktop computers will not only have full 64 bit support but have full blown open power of the cores and CPUs along with the OCL with more brute force graphics power than ever.

Shift ahead 5 years. We have NOW quad cores and multiple CPUs. My Mac has 2 quad core CPUs right now. Soon that will be an OCTO core with duel or quad CPUs. That would be 8 cores on at least 2-4 CPUs. Add to that at least 16-50GB of RAM and you have one heck of a brute force computer that can be realized in 5 or so years from now. 

So, I am just saying while some here are maintaining their point of Sub D being more efficient use there are certainly ways that may make it a moot point coming in a few years. No one I don't think is saying Sub D may not be more efficient at THIS time but it doesn't mean it will always be. As the technology grows, you can throw brute force at it and take the realism to a much higher level on home computers. You should in theory be able to use millions if not tens or hundreds of millions of polys in a scene with smooth and stable renders at an amazing speed. While we are not there yet, I am not sure that if you were to split a program like Poser into the the "mass market" and "high end" market you can't achieve the same or perhaps even better results doing it with brute force as some put it. Certainly the underlying technology will be there to do this. I'm not saying stay the course, but they certainly could and do both the Sub D version of Victoria and 200+ thousand high poly version then let the market decide which is better.

All I am saying is that while I understand the CURRENT trend of Sub D and it's uses I still say for true HUMAN realism you need more until I see some figure come out that is way better than anything now that blows V4 out of the water. How to do this 5 years from now may be a simple matter of preference and what the user has for their computer they design on rather than one method being better than the other.

Quote - "That's my point, the market that Poser, Daz and Renderosity has is mainly due to ease of use and being able to learn quickly and do the renders. Not many are going to do a custom figure because like you say there is a LOT that goes into it. Therefore my point all along of going high-end for Daz and Poser still seem viable if it means ease of use VS a bunch of time consuming work just to get started."

No, not viable because as everyone has pointed out that low poly over high poly is the way to go. It is the tech of poser that needs updating to the norm. Even DS uses SubD now and Daz has a SubD V4 with the morphs. So you can jump right in without any effort and start your project and not need that $27k machine to do it. Also you seem to be confussing those that are creating new figures and what they are doing in that creation from the finished figure that they would release with all the morphs. So again, even with a custom figure, your not doing anything special that your already doing with Daz figures.

I see your point there and although I was not confusing them I do see what you mean by some of my statements on this. If the FINAL figure actually had all the morphs and was as easy to shape/bend/form as the Daz figures then yes I could see a following if they can be used in Poser. If those same figures are only heavy sub d, I don't see a lot of aftermarket support unless Poser changes their sub d type support in the next Poser 8. I can see moving platforms to something like Modo ONLY if there are tons of aftermarket support for that figure. BTW, anyone hoping to make a new figure and move in another direction should still think about it being a much better female figure than V4. Then you will see the people here in that are known for their V4 designs in the marketplace take notice and support your figure well. Again, sorry if I confused you on the whole doing a new figure to the FINISHED design that would be easy to use and morph.

What people here have been proving is you can get a very efficient figure that has all the morphs and bends well  in poser without the heavy poly count as these Daz figures, not counting thier subD figures. This makes for a faster, easier workflow in the long run for poser users.

Quote - * Mondo could be the app, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not as easy to play with as it would be as Poser and a Daz figure with the built-in morphs. Sure, you can always sculpt and do your own, but if you are talking about the HUGE mass market appeal of selling like here at Renderosity, then look no further than the market place. Almost 90% of all new content is for the current Daz figures. So, unless you have a design team behind you, I don't see a way to possibly make enough cloths, props, etc. to support any figure for mass market. 

Yep!  I suppose the Daz figures have a certain comfort zone.

*Also, how and could you add hundreds of morphs to your custom figure in Modo to make it easy to sculpt for body, face and expressions like the V4, M3 figures by Daz? I don't know anything about Modo other than Daz V4 was created in it. That's why I was wondering how hard it would be to do all those morphs for a figure you design yourself. 

Not hard at all.  Study anatomy then take a few live drawing classes,  a few sculpting classes. 
Study expressions and body language along with motion and gestures.  Apply the knowledge you've learned as you push and pull vertices,  edges and polys.

That's my point, the market that Poser, Daz and Renderosity has is mainly due to ease of use and being able to learn quickly and do the renders. Not many are going to do a custom figure because like you say there is a LOT that goes into it. Therefore my point all along of going high-end for Daz and Poser still seem viable if it means ease of use VS a bunch of time consuming work just to get started.

*Again, I think we are comparing 2 different ways of doing things to 2 different markets. One is more professional and taking a longer time to learn and work with to achieve what you want. The other is giving you ready-to-go type figures and software. I see the advantages and disadvantages to both sides here. 

I agree.  There's only one difference between Daz  figures and Renderosity figures.
We made the developement of our figures public and we listen to what the public wants from our figures. 

I see what you are saying but that wasn't the point I had. Basically, unless you design a figure that is better than V4 and is as easy to morph in Poser with more realism then you are not likely to get mass appeal. The FEMALE figures are by far the most popular for a reason and most do a lot of fantasy type renders or fiction stories. So, the way I see it is if you want to do something new then it needs to be a female figure to start with as your first character and then gain it's support. That is why if Poser goes HIGH-END like I suggest, it will be for ease of use and to use such characters with it. Now, if Poser HIGH-END did sub-d and someone other than Daz made figures as you say that are sub-d with LOTS of aftermarket items here at renderosity and it was as easy to use as the Daz V4 type figures then yes, I can see a move like that.

However, going full Modo I don't see happening since there are no figures for it as easy as the Daz figures are to use nor is their any real market support here for such. I guess that leaves me wondering then if this market is not LOCKED into Poser and thus requiring as I mentioned in the other posts a split for low and high end use.

It just makes you wonder where and how fast the market is heading because without support like the Daz figures has here and over there plus the ease of use in morphing/shaping them then I don't see anything catching on unless something easier like Poser can handle those figures.

I have a question.  Which figure would you like, one off the rack or one custom made?

 Mondo could be the app, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not as easy to play with as it would be as Poser and a Daz figure with the built-in morphs. Sure, you can always sculpt and do your own, but if you are talking about the HUGE mass market appeal of selling like here at Renderosity, then look no further than the market place. Almost 90% of all new content is for the current Daz figures. So, unless you have a design team behind you, I don't see a way to possibly make enough cloths, props, etc. to support any figure for mass market. 

Also, how and could you add hundreds of morphs to your custom figure in Modo to make it easy to sculpt for body, face and expressions like the V4, M3 figures by Daz? I don't know anything about Modo other than Daz V4 was created in it. That's why I was wondering how hard it would be to do all those morphs for a figure you design yourself. 

Again, I think we are comparing 2 different ways of doing things to 2 different markets. One is more professional and taking a longer time to learn and work with to achieve what you want. The other is giving you ready-to-go type figures and software. I see the advantages and disadvantages to both sides here. 

Quote - "I can change the plugs in my truck and give it a tune up too but I'd rather take it to the shop and have them do it."

Not the same at all. Not everyone has the tools and scopes to tune a truck, they do have the tools needed in Poser.

Besides I was pointing out that the morphs would be a good selling point to add.

I can see where you are coming from here. 

That is one reason why I think Poser WILL continue to shine for many years in some form or the other. The ease of use is the key, especially for the Daz figures and such with their built-in morphs. Having built-in morphs is a must for any new figure to be popular and supported. 

 I saw the "Nargron Race" render and yes it is good. However, besides the back ground created in Vue 6, there is not a lot of FINE detail for the character creatures. While nice, doing models like creatures can be (certainly not always) much less demanding than human realism and that is what I have been referring to. Programs like Vue 6 Infinite are very amazing and well designed programs that I certainly would recommend. Mainly though, it is a background/world creator. This is why Poser needs to split and be at least as high-end as Vue 6 in the next 5 years. 

While Modo is indeed nice, it has a bit of a learning curve some may need professional training with. There are not yet enough books and DVD how-to beginners guides (at least that I know of) to really get a NEW user into it and realize the potential at their hands.

I still will debate the fact about Poser needing to split for this very reason. It is brand most are comfortable with, most will automatically think that with enough time and practice they can learn it without the need of professional training courses at a university or studio. Plus, if they split it as I always maintained you can use BOtH the current Poser library for years to come and the newly modeled high-poly figures or whatever they come up with to re-boot the Poser program.

Penguinisto -

If you read my other 2 main posts that was the whole point. One entry level version at the $2-400 price range, one ULTIMATE version at $800-$1000 price range. As I said too, yes you would be marketing to the top consumers and NOT the "mass market" typical computer buyer. Only a current cutting edge computer at least 5+ thousand would run software like this but that's the specific market they should go far with by using the split. In other words the top 5-1% of computer users.

Quote - 3DNeo, I think I understand what you are getting at and I will try to explain the low poly / V4 issue as best as I can in my inebriated state.

Sometimes throwing more brute force processing power won't solve the problem as effectively as streamlining the entire process. Said another way, sometimes less is more. Enter subdivision surfaces.

V4 has a slightly lower poly count than V3 - 68,000 polys verses 72,000 polys respectively or something like that. That many vertices are required for a polygon renderer to create "smooth" silouetted (sp) images (though if you viewed an alpha channel zoomed close enough you would still see facets). Several of these characters will kill your viewport's response and interactivity.

By contrast, take a 3000 poly character and subdivide it. Now you have a smoothly rendered, low weight character that refreshes very quickly in the viewport. This is the industry standard for feature films, and this is the high-end resource of which you speak, with local details provided by sophisticated displacement mapping.

When you are rigging using weightmaps, it is much easier to skin a 3,000 poly character and "wrap deform" it to a subdivision surface than to weight map a 70,000 poly character. There is no debate on this point.

Speaking with the utmost respect and humility, I think your heart is in the right place but your method is not fully realized.

Thanks for your post, it is interesting to see your take on this and get your theories. I can see what you are saying in terms of how other software and such can do it to a better extent. However, can you tell me how Poser can do this WiTHOUT re-writing the entire program? As pointed out, Poser is poly based and thus unless you start over I don't see how the methods you mention are going to be implemented, at least to such an extent as what I was getting at in my prior posts. If you can maybe expand upon this it would nice to talk about this in greater detail, but I don't see how it can be done.

This was basically my point. Unless Poser starts over, which I doubt given the absolute mass amount of add-ons and Daz figures out there, then the only way I see of achieving a HIGH-END detailed renders with photo-realism is to split the software and figures into two distinct markets. Now, if you are talking starting over then yes, everything you say can be done with better means that are not so old. But, current technology with multiple CPUs and cores with HUGE amounts of memory from 8-30GB is no longer a holding point for doing this.

Again, thanks for your thoughts and take on this, I hope that I have maybe explained more of my talking points better with your post as a guide.

Quote - Not to turn this into a mac windows debate but I doubt I will ever buy a mac. Taking Maya classes and the macs are always crashing left and right for whatever reason, thank goodness my pc's at home can handle everything I've thrown at them so far or I'd never get my homework done. I don't see any need for a super high end poser, they can't even get the versions they have out now right, what makes you think they could develop something high end. Poser needs to stay within the budget of the hobbyist. I bought the poser pro so I could use it with Maya and so far it isn't working. And I'm not the only one having problems. I don't think as a company they are able to correct the problems with poser, and I don't think they will put in the money to make it high end.

Just about everything in this post can be refuted. Not saying this to hurt your feelings but it is fact and I won't discuss the topic of Mac VS PC because that is not what this thread is about.

Please refer to my other detailed posts here. You will see that again the point is missed about Poser splitting. Think of it in some ways like Vue, you have the entry level and then the full bundle for $700. Poser can EASY do this if they put enough money and man power behind it. It is not aimed at the same market the "main stream" users would be in so you have two price levels as pointed out several times in prior posts.

Sorry, but you need to read the other posts more close. I do wish you the best in your art and studies as a young person. 

 I am going to have to disagree with most of the posts so far based on the following.

1. I was not aiming for the "main stream" user as mentioned in my OP. From what I have read so far about the reasons for believing something like this may not be viable appears to be based upon either other software like Vue or the disagreement about the need for 3-4X the number of polys, verticies, etc. for a HIGH-END Daz figure of VX and MX. As mentioned in my OP, I was not referring to beginners or main stream but rather pushing the limits of modern technology. 

That said, based upon response, you can do everything you want with a typical $1,500-2500 computer with 4GB of memory. What I was saying is that I think there is a REAL market for high-end Poser with a lower entry level Poser in two different price rages and markets. Something that goes beyond what Vue 6 does now of course since Vue 6 does nothing for added rigging or characters. It does give better, faster renders and some will say even better lighting. I LOVE Vue 6 as much as the next guy but they go hand-in-hand with Poser, it is not a Poser character program nor does it do what Poser does. It compliments Poser very well indeed but that is why I think a high-end Poser program should exist.

1. Remember,  I'm not talking about price here or trying to get on other subjects of Macs VS PC performance VS cost discussion. I also pointed out specifically I was not referring to main stream computer users about pricing as pricing was NOT a factor in my discussion. I believe there has been a market for a long time now for those wanting to push the envelope.

2. I will debate the subject of those saying:

"As other posters have said, high polycount isn't the key to great realism. The ideal weould be a low poly character, with high levels of SD at render time, with a great material setup - much lighter on resources, able to be used within the UI of the program in its 'naked' state very quickly due to its low resource overhead. This is not something that's going to happen in Poser until they change their method of smoothing and subdivision (not likely in my opinion)."

We are not talking about something that is light on resources here. What I said in the OP is I think there is a real market for those wanting to push the envelope and that means high-end resources that take advantage of full current computer technology. 

While I understand what those saying this are getting at, I must fully disagree to an extent. Just look at V4 compared to V3. Some say that V4 has even more problems and nothing was fixed and is even worse than V3 in some areas. Where, the hip and butt areas are known issues. Look at the verticies/polys and V4 has even fewer in those areas making it even more difficult to get human poses from her in certain positions and extreme action pose. Therefore, lower does not solve the realism issue. Also, why do artists like those that work on movies such as Shrek use such advanced and intensive work putting together all those polys, rigging, etc. for a movie like that? This is in addition to the advanced lighting and other uses they implement. 

Now, I was not talking about using millions of dollars worth of equipment least someone posts something about such extremes. Again, going back to my OP I am talking about doing this on a home scale use and we have the ability to do so now, just not the software or characters to do it with.

I love the discussion even though I disagree and debate the responses, it shows we are all very passionate about our Poser, Vue, etc. love of art. :)

Quote - should have got Alice 2, but you could go to Renderotica and see if they have some gens.

Thanks for the reply but it didn't help any at all - I'm sorry but please read my OP on this as I am looking for detailed feedback and advice from those doing this in a pro way. :)

1. I know about Alice but most don't use that figure and I have WAY too much invested in V4, hundreds worth of add-ons for cloths, props, etc.

2. As noted in my post, I know about that site and have seen all of them and find no PROFESSIONAL solution like you can get with V3. I have even tried "Amber" but find some faults with her.

3. I don't like any of the pre-fab post work items on that other render site as they look bad, too fake, etc.  plus I am wanting to do them on my own in post work for the scene that requires it. That means I will need something like Photoshop CS3/CS4 to do this and modify the character textures I own for V4 as outlined in my original post.

 If anyone can help on this for advice, software/brushes and techniques you recommend for Photoshop CS3 or how you do it in post work yourself it would be appreciated. You can send me a PM on this if you prefer as well.

Thanks.

Does anyone have a solution for this (see original post)? Surely there is because of all the V4 character packs sold here that work just fine. Maybe one of the marketplace people can chime in and say how they save their morphs for the  V4  body,  which includes the "body" dial  of V4 such as "young", "fitness", etc. Surely others have saved their custom V4 figures OK or else there would be FAR more outcry and no market place items would exist because of the saving V4 morphs issue.

Thanks.

Quote - Do you have the "Use External Binary Morph Targets" unchecked in your preferences?

Yes, I do. Is that OK? I get confused sometimes on when to check or uncheck the "Use External Binary Morph Targets" option. I usually just leave it unchecked.

Thanks.

**estherau -

Can you point me to some indoor scene content for vue? I looked here and didn't really find any rooms or such for inside. I'm looking for a package that either has or will let me build an indoor room like a living room. What I would like is something I can use for either an indoor cottage or other type of interior. Are there any good packages for constructing interiors in Vue 6 you would recommend?
**

Thanks for all the replies on this. I should've said that despite doing a comic-book style story that  what I am going to do is more along the lines of realistic renders or at least to the point of not the cartoon look like the Poser option has. I'm not going for realism since my renders will be mostly sci-fi and fantasy based, just more real looking like V4.1 using highres textures, lighting and so fourth.

I am leaning tword Vue, but most of the packs for it is for the "infinite" software which is $700 (YIKES!). But I would like to get away with the espirit package for about $200 but it seems like most items for Vue 6+ are for the REAL HIGH END package only. :( Any thoughts on what you use if you have Vue?

Bryce seems a little more appealing at the price level and will at least let me get my feet wet some. But I don't know rather just to bite the bullet and learn ONE software package for try Bryce then Vue if that's what I need.

Also, these packages look GREAT, especially Vue for OUTSIDE scenery, skies and planets. But, what about inside renders like a house room (i.e. living room, bed room, kitchen, etc.)? I looked and didn't see many packages for such things either in Vue or Bryce. Any thoughts there?

Thanks, I'll let everyone know which program I go with once I decude,

Here is a sample of what I did with the V4 "add-on" prop over at the other Rendero site. As you can see from the picture, it doesn't quite look right and it also does not blend with the character skin or the pubic hair you can see behind it. I tried most all settings and applying the mats in different order and this is the best I can get it with the add-on.

Any advice or help on how to do it better or for post work image add-ons would be helpful.

Thanks.