Interesting. You actually think I am someone else then? Is that it? That is a weird summation. As far as I know, I am Billy James. Is this all some new form of turning substance to liquid? I guess that's a very easy way to make someone sound very lame around here, just accuse them of being someone else and be done with it. I assure you, I am Billy James, (at least last time I looked in my mirror), and I have no clue what you people are going on about here. It might be real fun playing this kind of game, I just wish I wasn't in the center of it all, it makes me feel kind of weird, if you know what I mean.

Well, perhaps Tammy and Company can even organize a Lion pit and Gladiator combat to settle these disputes, since your all so funny now, thought I would join along in the festivities. I think that's a swell idea, so who should go first and where...??

A vote like that you suggest ASalina is not at all the same thing as a jury. That would be like having a country wide vote determine the fate of each court hearing. Somehow I don't think that would prove justifiable. Let it be known that I do understand the sarcasm of your post though, comparing it to what happened with this contest is commendable although it is nothing even near the same. Your kind of "vote" scopes the vastness of the internet and beyond, my opinion is one kept to a mainframe of only a very few "members and staff" actually deliberating between themselves and then approaching the people in charge who would ultimately still have the final word, hopefully based on the decision among the team depending on argument and circumstance.

hawkfyr, something to be said about Jerry Lewis, but this isn't the place for it. LadySilverMage, (nice catchy name, very sultry and eloquent), something to be said for throwing threads off track and hawkfyr above just did it very well. As for the nagging wife bit, if it makes Mosca feel better, I had one of those once too. She nagged and nagged till she was blue, if only she might have taken the time to stop nagging for even a moment, she might have realized I was attempting to say..."Goodbye, I have had enough of your nagging!". Sometimes it takes longer for some folks to reply than others, if they in fact CAN reply. Although if what you say about the admins here getting paid for their efforts is true, they would indeed be expected to fashion a reasonable accord here not only to staff issues but membership issues as well. However they would still have to answer to whomever pays them. The folks that actually run the place most likely DO have a real life sp easily forgotten in the online realm of things, just like every other person here has a life I would hope to presume. I would also assume that an answer so valued by Mosca for his pleas is one that would most likely make no difference to anything if it came from anyone less than this Tammy or whoever else oversees this art forum. And then there is that ever lingering question of whether an answer is even warranted, because an explanation WAS given and responsibility WAS claimed, unfortunatly it WAS also not good enough for Mosca, thus, we have, many, many posts unending here. Perhaps the best we can hope for is a valid solution to future development about all this, as has been proposed and apparently being worked on, "hopefully" from both sides. I still wonder if a jury idea might not be a bad idea; okay, so what if the folks running this place are paid, sometimes that in itself can even get in the way of emotional substance too because monetary value can so easily overtake the heartfelt passions of human thinking. If a team of totally unbiased and unswayed persons that have no expectations whatsoever and feel no fear of backlash could be summoned to quench the real heavy issues here when need be, I think it would make a difference to both sides. Just an opinion. Unfortunatly I haven't a clue how this could be done or if it is even possible in a forum place like this. That is why I suggested the brainstorming.

I don't know you, Spiritbro77 any more than I know Legume or Mosca. Seen them around the forums a few times thats it, Im pissed cause my opinion doesnt count for shit here anymore than anyone else that may be 'green' and the rules are changed around here midstream by the members. People are spat on for their opinions. The staff here are less respected for what they do or say than a bunch of sniveling, slurping, dirty morons in a soup kitchen. Fuck it, if you guys think its ok that all this is going on then woo hoo things are just great here. But when you all hang yourselves dont expect anyone to give a shit. You may all be to busy enjoying how terrific everything isn't when you see a "site not found" at the top of your browser. Wouldn't want to rock the boat of dissention mongers would we? You know, I can be just as fond of playing with sarcasm as the next person, and I also think it works BOTH ways. Perhaps we should just appeal to the staff to allow this place to actually BE a free for all and pass out guns, ammo and knives and maybe even bazooka's at the entranceway and let the membership and staff go at it?? Better yet, let's lynchmob the staff and scramble the prizes and take over the joint and ransack the entire marketplace and make the gallery and discussion boards a free for all!! I would actually be inclined to enjoy such a fortune of caustic, catastrophic events a place such as this would endure in a scenario like this, the bloodshed and waste would be a tale to be told for countless ages online, but at what kind of cost? How long has this huge place been here and taken to grow to such gigantic proportions? I have also heard from various sorts that what I have just proposed sarcastically above has pretty well happened here before anyways; it was all a part of what indeed has made this place so...BIG...and also prosperous and precious in many ways. Do we go backwards now and relive that enactment and see if we can do this all again? I would hope this place has learned from past and gone forward enough to somehow deal with this more professionally and diplomatically as a result of past scrambled charging among the ruins. I think that if anything, the staff here may be wanting to make certain that all the things here that have been "gained" through past hardships, are maintained and even enhanced to grow forward towards a more peaceful and professional outlook instead of backwards to where it seems no one really respected anyone unless they had a bigger gun or grenade up their nose instead of a flowing brush and creative hand. I can comprehend the value of a free for all and more "space" in a place that may be a lot smaller and where everyone really kind of knows one another. I have seen that format work most efficiently in such places because then the members really do have a way of taking care of themselves and any rigamortus that may offer themselves into that kind of scenario is deadmeat on their own accord. It is all about teamwork and friendship and close bonding and actually really "caring" about one another and coming together time and time again and sharing that same space and "knowing" each others boundaries and respecting the value of one another both individually and as a whole. That works if you have the right people and the right place, and I think although there are many, many people here just like this, there are also many not like this; this place is just too BIG for it to work this way here. Ironically I do think the staff here do want this kind of flavor here, but because it is so darn huge, it needs policing and policing can be hard and direct and cold and it can get in the way and be looked at the wrong way especially in an emotionally charged place like this where you get folks from both sides of the coin happening too often and out of control too easily. Many may come here for family reasons, many others may come here just to be a pain in the ass and many others may be here just to sell or profit, and yet many others just to buy stuff and others, just to post a show and say "look at me!" Then you get folks that are like me that just come to look at pretty pictures and suddenly stumble in one day to see what else is here. Now, I may well have easily crossed the wrong person here myself if I was that way and gotten myself banned or cast out quite easily too, it sometimes doesn't take much even in the real world to get stopped by a cop. I have seen people get stopped by police and begin to give them an earful midstream of getting a ticket which resulted in another ticket and eventually even a pair of handcuffs and a visit to the station because they could not shut up! Maybe the person being fined had a point about being picked on while ten other folks got away speeding, or how she saw the officer looking up her skirt or maybe the officer was being unfair somehow or not within the rights of the law; but was she making this point the right way at the right time and is there not a place better to do this and a better way than to risk losing that credibility for the sake of the moment? And what if the officer was right and the person fined was just causing grief and spite for getting caught? I think once a place gets THIS big as I see this place being, it becomes like real world economics and requires laws and a specific order or it does stand to lose more than it can possibly gain from a free for all place where the membership should be trusted to sort out the mess in whatever way they want. Just like a real world scenario I don't think the amount of members and staff here can really be expected to have this place with no rules and conduct and responsibility because in such a vast place there is just far too much heresay and variance of circumstance, nevermind emotions aplenty. I do wonder though, if a place such as this, that has needed to "enforce" policing of sorts to keep the place from in fact falling apart from so many mindsets and diversities, whether they shouldn't really consider having some kind of jury system?? What I mean is, hearing how folks are banned and seeing how things can get out of hand so easily and I am sure just as members can be unforgiving, so can staff at times, the emotions DO run high here bigtime, perhaps the staff here take on too much responsibility to themselves, and thus pay the price of disrespect at times because members scream unfair and shady! Maybe in some cases they should consider appointing a cast of members, some known, some unknown, perhaps picked randomly, before a judgement like a banning is decided with the final decision made by the staff of course. It "would" make members here more close to the various issues at hand and it would also give the vast membership here more responsibilty for their own actions too. This could also work with contests if done with respect to "both" sides here. I think "respect" is what it's all about here. I see that being an issue more and more. I think ultimately what IS most important is that the site is respectful in what it is trying to portray to the internet masses, and I think both the staff and members know this and want this very much but none of them want to give up any of their own respect to make this happen. Maybe this place needs a good brainstorming session rather than so many emotional outbursts upon the boards.

Enormous, excessive sarcasm is another symptom of change, it would seem.

"I'm being civil (more than I can say for some of management's apologists), and staying squarely within the TOS, at least as I read it." "I do wonder if all this could not be resolved with more more private avenues and not so blatantly openly obvious to make the site staff look like a bunch of imcompetent boobs." "Hey, they don't need any help from me."

"Billy, I have seen some of your posts and have to wonder, do you really feel we should all just blindly sit by and take whatever comes from admin?" Spiritbro77 I have to ask you, do you really feel the Administration staff here should all just blindly sit by and take whatever comes from Mosca? Seems to me as if they are. Seems to me they take more than their share of crap from their members and all these continuing posts are proof of that. I have been to different forums where far less is tolerated, I assure you, members here do have a big voice! I have also been enlightened somewhat as to why Mosca seems so determined to have his say, and I do have to give the Mosca due "credit" for being so determined to stick up for his friend Legume here for what he may feel to be some sort of injustice towards Legume due to some past possible grievance. I must ask if the "way" this is being enacted is indeed "proper" though?? Although Mosca's passion for all this is admirable I do wonder if all this could not be resolved with more more private avenues and not so blatantly openly obvious to make the site staff look like a bunch of imcompetent boobs. I would imagine artists to have a very outspoken voice by nature, I would expect that much and I would also take it for granted that the folks that run this place or any other art forum KNOW exactly this and what they are getting themselves in for when they open an artistic community. IF they do NOT, they have no business even trying to run an art site because it would be fatalisticly self destructive indeed! I also don't think staff of any site should be subject to all out open ridicule and abuse from anyone especially when they offer so much of a vast community area with so much potential foundation and wealth to so many here. I do wonder if the folks that run this place are used to this kind of screaming and yelling and so that is why it is tolerated so openly. I read somewhere that this place once had a big huge complaint forum of some kind that was shut down because the members didn't know how to behave or abused it or something like that. I believe this Poppi person has reminisced about this quite often and I have seen several other members bring this up more than once in various threads and sound almost like they lost their best friend when that particular forum was ended. It appears many members seem to regret losing that forum like it had some special attraction here. It's a real shame I have come so late onto all this because I would have enjoyed seeing something so vital to the members as this Complaint forum with first hand experience. If this stuff happening here is just a small example of what used to go on there, I can just imagine what a profound headache the staff must have endured; unfortunatly it also seems no one here has learned anything from the loss of this so called Complaint forum. It may explain why the members here are so cocky and full of injective attitude though. If this forum has had a more leniant time during the past and condoned so much for the sake of art, one then would understand the open rabble fests. It would indeed take time and consistent re-learning to establish conformity and teamwork, especially among so many diverse and emotionally charged creative folks; and when you have a few boisterous folks practicing their soprano lessons with every opportunity such as this, it makes restructuring even more difficult. I believe I understand this more now. It may actually have nothing at all to really do with Legume, but then again it may; and if it does, then Legume seems to be an unfortunate person caught up in all this somehow due to his outspoken art, or this past greivance Mosca is playing on, or Legume might even be being used as a catylist either by the members or the staff, (sheer speculation on my part), which would then be unfair to Legume, yes. The staff here have said that Legume has nothing to do with this, but Mosca mainatins it does, a duel of sorts? I really don't think it has anything to do with Mosca directly, except I thin Mosca certainly thinks it does, and I won't try to tell him otherwise, I do think amidst trying to speak for his friend Legume Mosca also just likes the attention he is getting too. I am starting to see that I have come onto this place just as there seems to be some kind of forum evolution of sorts, that would explain a lot of the dissention and almost near rioting at the smallest drop of a pin here; it does take so little to cause a ruckus and everyone seems so edgy and touchy even at the most spiritual time of year. I know there is also much worse forum type places around on the internet, mostly gaming sites full of snot nosed kids that don't know any better and so they are allowed to run rampant and destroy one another, those forums are great fun for sport and a great timewaster with really no substance and nothing as far as professional quality and business fortune ventures which is what these artistic places are seemingly about upon onset. One would expect a certain clientele here that would be more inclined to have structure and class and above all as much respect "for" this place as they would expect "from" this place. Right now this art forum seems a little member self gratuitous, almost like many folks here somehow got really spoiled over time and now scream "MOMMA" because they have to grow up and don't like the rules that come with that prospect. My apologies if this sounds fragilistic, I suppose this is an overall viewpoint from a newer member that has been told several times already to almost "bud out" of all this. On one hand this place is so "friendly" with creativity and community spirit and even commercialistic attraction like that of a huge family store with a welcoming committee galore. On another aspect there is almost a very dark side to this forum that shadows itself readily whenever stuff like this happens, and one such as me almost feels as if I am being ogled and watched suspiciously as I am told I am welcome and to feel at home,....."Oh, but come in fine sir, but do not touch anything or even stand too long in one place and above all keep very quiet and out of site and mind amidst the noise here because we don't like strange distractions or interruptions."

Mosca, the adminstration here probably has their very own real life kids to spend Christmas time with before they would ever want to hurry back to spend time dealing with any of their online ones. I think there might be a 'signifigance' factor here on their part. You may want to chew frantically on a teether of some sort until they have time to leave all that hometown feeling and return here just to please you. Happy Boxing Day

Hey, thank you for mentioning all those other art sites, I had no idea about them since I found this place by accident. I looked around and find this interesting. Now I will have lots more art to look at everywhere! This Renderotica place is certainly something I have never thought possible, wow, I knew there were adult picture sites but adult art sites like this? Is it even safe to go in there? That is a joke, don't take it wrong, no one. You know, all these other art forums you mention now have me even wondering more. With so many places that are similar, if this place is so bad and some folks don't seem to like the way things are here, why do so many folks keep hanging here and coming back here? There seems to be a big load of homies here everytime I come here. I can barely keep up to the galleries some days, and folks like to complain lots and lots here, yet, they practically live here each and every day. So if it is so bad, why doesn't everyone just flock away to one or two of these other places? I figure that perhaps a lot of these folks here just like to have something to complain about to make online life interesting, that may be the reason. Or is there really something else that maintains the homies here? Badco above states the other places are not the same at all, so what is so different? If I have a pimple on my bottom I would want to get rid of it, not enjoy it and make it into a boil. You folks here put this place down and they can do no right here and yet in the same breath you all do love it here. This place and its' members reminds me of a married couple that likes to fight and keeps fighting just to maintain the fun relationship they have. I suppose that might make sense. Mongo, I did not think anyone here was a hamburger flipper or an apple polisher at all, just like I didn't go for Mosca being a horsefly. Everyone here is probably well versed in high end careers and many are so very talented they should be professional artists if they are not.

"some are getting very, very tired of crap like this contest. oh, 'n shucky durns...i've even heard some have pulled their marketplace items, and, are no longer posting to gallery. now fancy that." That's what I mean. If everytime something offball happens here and this kind of reaction occurs, it really can leave a bad taste in many mouths here and folks start to wonder if they even want to be here and then even possibly leave. I think that's sad. It's just like that thread in the Copyright Laws and Ethical Standards forum here where folks seemed like they were ready to lynchmob this Clint for not making a snap decision. If he had, the whole thing would have been a lot worse. To me it seems like there's some folks around here that just can't wait for trouble to start so they can have some kind of tabloid hayday at the expense of others or the folks that run the site. Is there not a lot of better things to do? I think the majority of members seem to have the right idea about the creative environment here, but it only takes a few to cause a ruckus time and time again and dull the shine this site has. I like the shine, it is so much more attractive. I just hope this place has a huge supply of wax and hand towels to maintain it during so many storms.

"And that's all I have to say to you--you've contributed nothing to this thread, as far as I can see, beyond a lot of rambling misapprehension and a few interesting adventures in grammar. If you don't think this issue is important, butt out and let the grownups sort it out." I do think this issue is very important because I happen to like the art here and I would hate to see the folks that run this place get fed up running this place because folks like you give them such a hard time when they happen to maybe muck up and continue to give them an even harder time even after they acknowledge this and say sorry, we know we messed up. I kind of resent the fact you suggest I contribute nothing. I suppose you are contributing lots and lots with your endless whimpering about this contest and how bad the folks that run this place are? I guess that's really beneficial to all here and very inspirational to all the artists here? I do hope I am wrong, I get the impression this place is a lot more than just about guilt trips, blaming and neverending complaining about the same things, in fact I have seen that it is a lot more, I wish you would too. As for being grownups, my kids even know when to stop making a fuss and stop slurring each other, you seem to still keep going and I am sure you will still be going till next week and the week after. I think this entire place is an adventure in grammer of a sorts because these discussion boards seem so dependant on dueling with words and who has the best and loudest line for the moment. I suppose in that aspect, you win Mosca, although what good that does all these artsists, I haven't a clue. I just hope it doesn't stop them from creating anytime soon.

"Well BJ, Any comment about a housefly is mild compared to what you have said about Mosca. Lemme see, you say he whimpers and spouts shrills and screams, rants and raves. You also compare him to Mutt or Jeff or Abbot or Costello or even one of the Stooges." I didn't say Mosca was a stooge or a horsefly or anything else. The housefly label came from someone else, and then someone else even said something about a gadfly, whatever that is. I was only making a comparison of what a lot of this sounds like, not actually saying Mosca is a Mutt or anything. Please don't you be making a fire out of a harmless way of trying to describe something. I am wondering if Legume was in the CL Poser 5 contest? If he was, did he win? If not, was Mosca upset about that too? Happy Boxing Day

"Jeebers, Billy - let it die already..." There have been 60 posts between what I just posted and what I posted before, and that is only on this thread alone. And you ask me to let it die? That must be because I am new, I guess. I did not know about this CL Poser 5 contest stuff but it would seem to me there should have been loud screams about that too, if there weren't then there is something wrong. What about all those that only used poser to try to win? If people scream so loud about this, then why not about that too? I guess that is my point. Maybe it was a Vue d'Esprit prize involved too? I have no clue. As for Mosca being a housefly or anything else, please, don't make anyone think I said such a thing. Stuff is so easily taken out of context here already. I did not say anything like that at all. Happy Boxing Day

Okay, I am somewhat confused here. I am fairly new to this forum as you know. I don't know any of these artists personally, which means Sir Legume, or Legume just as well as this ToxicAngel person or any of the other artists. I also maintain that I DO recognize each and every candidate up for AOY as an "ARTIST" and that is including Legume. In fact I happen to think your a wonderful "artist" Legume, your art makes people laugh, think, dance, sing, argue, maybe even fornicate among many other things. In so many ways I think that IS what art should be about. I also think that this ToxicAngel's art rubs people certain ways as well, as do all the other artists. All of them ignite some form of emotion and passion among those that view their art or they would most certainly not be the candidates they are. The question of whether you are an artist Legume never entered my mind, YOU ARE, and a very good one, and this coming from a newcomer that knows very little about you other than what I can establish from reading posts here, history or recently, and the artwork you thrill me with time and time again. However, this same comprehension also makes me very curious and also confuses me. It makes me mixed up when I see the shrills and screams all over this big forum countless times by this Mosca fella ranting and raving about this contest being unfair, but ONLY TO YOU Legume, I do not understand this at all??? I don't understand why this Mosca or anyone else hasn't screamed bloody hellish murder for this ToxicAngel, who actually WAS winning; no, not one scream, not even a whimper from this Mosca or anyone else in regards to this ToxicAngel that I can find anywhere, all I can see is this Mosca scream as loud and as often as he can and then those that follow like lemmings off the Legume cliffside. This is why I used the term Sir Legume and his sidekick Mosca, because Legume, it just LOOKS like that you know. It all reminds me of Mutt and Jeff or Abbot and Costello or the Three Stooges with one Stooge missing, there is something just very obvious when all Mosca does is cry foul just for YOU Legume. Why is it just about YOU?? This is something that bothers me. As for asking for votes or stuffing the turkey, I don't think it is cheating to ask for votes if it is within the scope or realm of the subject matter at hand. If a Presidential Candidate were running for office, he would be very foolish to just wait for folks to vote and hope people just blindly notice his qualities of leadership and whatever other reasons one may wish to vote for him, so widespread canvassing and whatever else it takes would be the norm and expected. However, if this candidate starts attempting to win over all the people in China to come vote for him for a Presidential Election in America, there's just something wrong about that now, what do they know about America. I suppose that is what I am comparing this to, it does actually seem that far stretched from what I see here and what I see people say, what do folks from newsgroups and this subgenius stuff know about Renderosity day after day. Okay, we know the contest was NOT stopped because of anything Legume did at all, we have been told this countless times, and I heard it, but does Mosca understand this? I ask this because Mosca still seems determined to make someone, anyone pay for abusing his buddy Legume, that is what I also see. I also don't see him stop anytime soon. I do not see this same thing happening for this ToxicAngel even though he was in the lead and winning and what if he now loses?? Will this Mosca scream as loud for ToxicAngel, campaign as harshly for ToxicAngel, or anyone else up for candidate?? I must sound like I am talking about politics, that's the other thing that still bothers me. I thought I had joined an art site, not a political site about just a few folks that can scream the loudest and only for some and then scream UNFAIR! I really find it sad, the very things this Mosca and others scream about here, the unfairness, the cheating, the corruption; this seems to be happening right before my own eyes, but not by the folks running the place, but by those that seem to think they have the only say and anyone disagreeing with them can go somewhere else or stay out of all this because they don't matter. I think that is unfair, especially since it seems fair that folks from anywhere can vote, but people like me should keep my opinions to myself because I am not an artist and I am too new. To me it appears that the only things that matter in this whole contest is this Mosca and Legume. I mean you no offense Legume, I still think you got caught up into this and of course you are going to ride along, what I don't really get is Mosca's deal here other than a very tight friendship he may have with you. But is THAT fair to ToxicAngel or the others? Should he not be screaming just as loud for them too?? Not that I am saying there is, but IF there was a victim here at all, why is it only you Legume? Because this Mosca says so? This Mosca seems to be a very important person here, but I haven't figured out what he is or why he is as yet. Maybe I am missing something or maybe this Mosca is just very opiniated. If it is just loud opnion, then I think this Mosca should be the last one to scream unfair because he seems to have more screaming rights, and favorable ones, than anyone else here. Perhaps there should be an award for that? Happy Boxing Day