So, like, KateTheShrew was like: 'When I want to know what's "new" in the marketplace, I gasp actually go to the marketplace and hit the "what's new" button. I know, it's a radical concept, but hey, whatcha gonna do?' That doesn't show you anything but what's on Renderosity. It doesn't who you what's new at DAZ. It doesn't show you what's new at RDNA. It doesn't show you what's new at 3DCommune. It doesn't show you what's new at any other site. Sure, you could go to those sites to see what's new, but things aren't going to be represented in a fair comparison basis in a single forum. Moreover, what about when a new site starts up? You're not going to even know about the site. One of the things about Renderosity that is nice (as opposed to places which I won't mention cough3DComnCough that have done some very insecure appearing things like insisting that no off-site products be advertised, Renderosity has been nice and allowed other brokerages to tout their wares in the PS forum here. KateTheShrew, I respect you on a lot of levels, but this whole 'I'm glad the merchants can't post their WIPs here so I don't have to see them, and if I want to see new things I'll look in the marketplace' argument is just bullshit. It's an example of the sort of segregation I'm talking about in pure form. Chuck, you may be right, though the subject at hand does very specifically relate to this forum and not other forums. It's about what should be posted here and thus of interest to those who post here and read here. One other thing to note, to all... Segregation is not the sort of matter that should be decided by a case of 'Majority Rules'. If it were, there'd still be four bathrooms in the establishments that even allowed blacks. There'd stil be sections on the bus, and Rosa Parks would have died in jail unremembered. The Chinese would only be allowed to live in Chinatown, and the gutterpunks would not be allowed by law to spange on the street or even hang out because people don't like the looks of 'em. Wait -- hang on -- that last one is true. When you let people vote themselves bread and circuses, they will -- and they'll vote that someone of a different 'class' (which is really what we merchants are) can't have them. As a result, I'm not appealing to a democratic majority. I'd guess that the democratic majority would be perfectly happy to discriminate against my art because I'm going to sell it and not allow me to show off my WIPs -- any of them because right now I have to spend ALL of my time creating things that will bring in money, and I don't have much time to make things that won't, or will even cost me money to host. I'm appealing directly to the sense of justice of the powers that be here to make a decision with fairness in mind. That means if WIPs by merchants that are intended to be sold when they are done aren't allowed, then WIPs by non-merchants shouldn't be, either. I'd like to categorise this to content creation... characters, textures, pose sets, props, and so on... but in all fairness, it should be applied to everything, even pictures, as ANY of us could at any time decide one of our works was good enough to sell and put it up on Zazzle or Cafe Press or get prints made to sell at a convention. That's a merchant WIP when that happens, even retroactively.

11. Do you want to know what Poser Free Items are available? Giving a bit more thought to this... if Free Stuff promos were also forced into the Product Showcase forum, that might alleviate the frustration many merchants (I still have the ethical argument, but many do not) feel in the thought that the PS forum is a 'Ghetto'. If postings of Free Stuff were also forced there and the description said so (and the Poser Forum said to go look there for them now) it might draw a lot more traffic into that forum.

Quinlor, Nether... you've both said you don't want to see merchants' works in progress, but you do want to see members' works in progress (Nether, with caveats). I'm a member. See, that's exactly what I'm saying Ladynimue... The end goal of my work should not have anything to do with whether I can post it or not. To do so is discrimination.

I don't so much mind Poser Technical questions and Howtos. I myself have posted several howtos (reflection mapping and such) back before I saw the segregative activities hit full effect. But I do want fairness. If the Product Showcase exists as a place to move anything that has anything to do with a work that is going to be or is being sold when posted by the merchant themselves, then yes, I want to see Technical things moved to the technical forum and OT posts moved to the OT forum because that's wha those forums are there for. As to number 3, well, to be honest, it's generally the other way around. I'm usually one of the ones giving the answer, not asking, so that one doen't really apply to me. Though, on that note, we should have a Poser Troubleshooting FAQ, even just as a static document in the backroom, and REALLY PROMINENT links to it, so that when someone does post the inevitable 'I lost my document window' a moderator can kindly point them to the REALLY BLATANT LINK to the FAQ and tell them to see question #1 and quietly delete their post. With some notification that questions that are in the FAQ will be removed, thread and all, that's perfectly fair. I want to see EVERYONE'S works in progress, and I want to be able to show my works in progress whether it be something I can and will sell or not. I don't want my WIPs discriminated against because they will be or may be sold at some point. 5. Do you want to have Off Topic subjects allowed [as in so and so just had a baby, or the weather is nasty here how is it in your area, or does anyone know if a specific member is ill? Again, I don't mind Off Topic posts not being moved if the same even-handed moderation is used for WIPs. Notice I'm not going over 'Merchant WIPs' or 'Product WIPs'... I'm saying WIPs in general because I, for one, do not see a distinction between art based on whether or not it's profitable. 6. Do you want to see Copyright issues that deal with Poser Images? I'd generally rather not see copyright issues. Seeing copyright issues that deal with specific poser images and such -- i.e. 'Key, Ladynimue, I saw your recent picture on a T-shirt at the mall. Are you selling T-shirts of that?' doesn't bother me, but I get rather fed up with the 'Attention everyone who bought Stoner Eyes, it's a ripoff by footballcoach of Evilheart's Demon Eyes' messages. I certainly wish to post special things I've done and awards I've received with my Poser images or creations. One thing I'm seeing as a distinction being made that shouldn't be... If you load up three things you bought, two things that came with Poser, and four things you got in Free Stuff and arrange them to make a picture or simply work out a matching theme for them even, it's art. I'm in no way saying it's not, even though that's been suggested of Poser artists. There have been comparisons between things like arranging painted action figures and taking a polaroid. People have taken offence to this. Thing is, I don't think those are necessarily bad coparisons, either.... but I think that arranging action figures and taking a polaroid counts as art. Making such look good REALLY counts as art. But then there is no way that the tricks I've done with Yoroi (Japanese armour) in making it to look like it has a texture* even around the edges, or the vectoral sculpting that goes into them, or the paint jobs I've given such, or the accessories I've built to go along with by any means are any less art because I'm going to sell it. Announcements of sales, ads specifically geared towards selling a specific product (i.e., Buy this ray gun now at my store), and so on belong in the Product Showcase forum. Thing like what several of us were doing by giving sneak peeks of M3 that everyone kinda wanted to see (even people who complained in many cases) and at the same time being able to show off what we were creating -- NOT tout our wares (which weren't even wares yet, and in my case is still at the 'almost there' stage) -- not only shold be allowed here, they belong here. Frankly, WIPs do not belong in the Product Showcase forum because it's for things that are for sale not things that people are making. I don't even know what you mean by the online lectures thing, so I doubt if t concerns me much. I've never even noticed any moderator gallery picks of the week, nor do I know what those are, so I doubt if, at least in my case as repreentative, they're very effective, whatever hey are. Of course I want to know what Poser Free items are available, though I think Renderosity is shooting itself in the foot by segeregating those from themarketplace, as they [free stuff] are the biggest draw of this website. I do not believe that a price tag of $0.00 in any way distinguishes a different level of commerciality than a price tag of $0.01 or or $1.00 or $10.00 or $100.00. Even if a person id giving something away completely out of the goodness of their heart (and many aren't -- some have ads on their sites, some use them to draw attention to their not-free-stuff, and some simply provide them as support items for their not-free-stuff, requiring the merchandise first), they're still being commercial, drawing (intentionally or not) traffic and attention away from other things, and so on. Zero-dollar-stuff is the same as any other merchandise, just with a lower price tag and no guaranty at all. I'd like to see the Poser forum generally deal with Poser stuff. Works in progress (merchandise or not), links to tuts, and so on are all fair game as far as I'm concerned, but as soon as anyone starts discriminating against any portion thereof then such segeregation and discrimination should be applied evenly and fairly across the board. Some people hate to see anything that might someday be be for sale. Some people hate to see any technical questions. Some people hate to see copyright violation notices. Some people hate to see fluffy toonimals and sad attampts at humour. Some people hate to see nudity. Some people don't want to see violence. Some peole don't want to see TV related stuff. Some people don't want to see movie stuff. SOme people don't want to see the blood sweat and tears someone has put into creating the virtual representation of their pouty-lipped simpering dream girl. As soon as a coalition is formed to relegate any of these things to smoe backwaters of the site, then such segeregation should be applied across the board. ANY subject which enough people don't want to see ('enough' being one of those things for later debates, I suppose) should be relegated to its own little shantytown somewhere on the site, or at the very least this should be done when specific categtories DO in fact already exist.

I'm confident the mods can handle if a posting is too technical and should be moved. I'm afraid you're being rather naive if you think that would ever happen. But as I said, if that's not technical, posting my WIPs is not advertising. Whether I'm going to sell the end result or not. there HAVE been numerous apparent "look, it's not advertising OK? I just wanted to draw people's attention to this wonderful item that'll be for sale soon is all, so I can make a buck. Not advertising at all, no-no - asking for feedback, WIP images, perficly legit yer honors" That is exactly the sort of prejudice and segregative/discriminative activity that I'm talking about. Just because it's going to be sold does not mean that showing off a work in progress is any diffeent than if you're going to give it away or give it to your wife.

L Like I said, I can read them no. I'm sure if I gave itmyall I could even visualise the object from the vertices (though keeping track of the faces wold be bgoyond me, but a point cloid inthe humanmind ios easy enough to render... wonder when our software will catch up?

Hmm. Well, depends on your definition of cmoplexity... and I use a killer text editor (vim -- www.vim.org). Open vim Open another vim Open M3 object Open V3 Object /^vt (search for a line beginning with vt) Shift-V (begin Visual selection in full-line mode) } (jump to next empty line to complete selection) Switch to open M3 object }}}... (jump enough empty lines so you're past the v lines though it doesn't really matter if you do this because in an OBJ you can declare texture coordinates anywhere before you use them) Middle-click (paste in gvim -- copy is automatic on selection) :wq (write-quit) But I'm a text-mode Linuxy kinda guy. Viola. B^)

I'm certain that they plan on using a structure similar to high-end boards such as vBulletin for their threads, etc. (though obviously something developed in-house) My forum software (that which Iused on XFX3d) may be under consideration, but unfortunately with my ISP having worms it's not online for evaluation at the moment. It would be nice, though, to get that licenced and make some real programming type money off a software licence. then go to File>Export UVs and export the UVs with all of the flags UNCHECKED Ahh, I never do that... I always load up from an OBJ when I've imported. save a backup of the Mike without UVs ;) That's already in my downloads folder -- the one I saved out of my email B^) (Besides, it's me. I could just hack them back out of the OBJect file, seeing as I can read them now L)

And showing off a work in progress is not advertising, even if it's going to be for sale. It's certainly less advertising than technical support is technical. That's why they call it technical support. Anyway, I'm not angry. If I were angry I wouldn't think of the comparison, I'd be too flustered. But I do want to see fairness.

Oops, I might get in trouble. I spoke of a Poser Tecnhnical subject in the Product Showcase forum. There's a seperate forum for that, after all. Hey, DraX, during those skirmishes (the war is not over) about merchant's equal rights to post their WIPs in the Poser forum just like anyone else with a WIP rather than being discriminated against because their art would eventually have a price tag... All the antimerchant bigot pro-discriminators kept pointing out 'There's a seperate forum for that' It's too bad we didn't think to point out that there's a seperate forum for hardware issues (Hardware/Technical) and a seperate forum for Poser technical issues (Poser Technical) but no one pitches a bitch when someone asks for help configuring their bloody video card or asks how to reset their Poser UI to default because their viewport window is somewhere over near Guam. That sort of PROVES it's discrimination and not merely a case of 'there's a forum specifically for you people' segregation. As if there were much difference.

If Mike wasn't UV mapped he wouldn't be able to take V3 textures either 8-) - the map data is there. Not in mine. I got mine early. No installer, no UVs, no morphs except the JCMs, that's all. I only have UVMapper Classic*, so I get no options on import -- it does groups and materials and all, though if I can import them I could conceivably do it in Max's Unwrap UVWs modifier. * I have the demo of Pro, but it didn't do anything I can't already do in Max, so I didn't get it -- I occassionally use it to preview a mesh, so if 've posted a screenshopt from it and you're confused (I think I have) that's why. - - - - - -

On another note... Allow me to say 'Grr' at Poser. If you import by group from multiple figureResFiles to a single figure, it works fine, but when you save it it leaves out the other (different) figureResFile line (for more on this see my tut on loading a few months back in the Poser Tech forum). That means I have to stick both tabi in one OBJ because I don't want to make seperate tabi CR2s -- I HATE seperate CR2s for shoes (gloves I can see, somehow that's different). Back to Max. Grr. Luckly I have my scripts so I can do it without splitting along the groups.

Besides which, the objects don't have the same number of vertices, so that can't properly work. I know they will be able to use almost the same map but that's a slightly different story.

That big long stupid thread int he Poser forum, Catherina has the UVMapped version and showed some slight differences (like the eyelid area leaves a gap and such)

It's already the 20th -- I probably should really just finish the obi, textures on the katanas and wakizashis (I'm incuding both 'normal' and shirasaya varieties), and wrap the whole thing up. Heck, I don't even have Mike's UVs.