Another thought on categories is that, IMO, they'd do a bit of disservice to a lot of people. I'd support having such a form available to the critiquer, but, in a lot of cases I can see it limiting the feedback. For instance, most of the time that I spend analyzing and interpreting a piece in my head, I just let whatecer thoughts come to me, follow them to their conclusions, and then move to the next thought. For those of us who work in that way, it would limit us to immediately give us a "form" to which we were adhering, and it would probably actually do the reverse of what it was intended for. So, my thought is this: Leave the critiquing open so that people don't feel they have to stick to a predetermined method, but make it available so that if the person wants to use it they can easily access it, and apply the format to their post. This all assumes, also, that R'osity's coding guy has the time to set something up. As I understand it, they've been keeping him pretty overloaded, and one person locked in a cage being fed bread and water can only do so many things at once. ( That's an inside reference to one of Micheleh's posts elswhere. ) Regards, Paul P.S.: Sorry about the spam above, again... I'd just put in a twelve hour day of physical labor for my family, and hadn't posted for a while. It's Paul's law: The length of my posts in inversely proportional to the number of post I make in a sitting, while remaining geometrically explosive to the power of time I've been thinking about them. Summed up as L = ( x^P ) / n.

Come to think of it, I guess the biggest reason I don't like the review form idea is because it takes out the entire reason I like the forum, which is because I want to DISCUSS images. It's not really a critique the other way, more like a comment card. In fact, I can't really see how any sort of form would tell me anything useful about my work. Ok. So I got rated a 4 on lighting and 5.6 on technical. What's that mean? Am I making any sense here at all? Maybe that sort of thing could be made available as an extra to the forum, but if that's all the forum was, I'd probably never bother. No offense, to anyone, btw... That's just my opinion. I think it's terrific people are taking the time to think so much about this thing, even if I don't agree with them. Regards, Paul P.S.: This is my last post for a while... honest... I'm shutting up now.... (Sorry about the spam - I know reading my posts here is starting to get like what happens when you use the VERBOSE command in Zork. )

wow. That last post is really long, huh? *8^>

Like voodoo, I don't like the idea of categories and ratings, much. For instance, one of the things that got me interested in this idea to begin with is that I wanted a place to post my images where I could get some idea of the emotional impact of the piece, while remaining aloof from critiques of technical prowess. On the same note, I understand people who prefer it the other way around. If I wanted to know what impact a piece had on the viewer, them rating in various categories would be pretty arbitrary, and tell me very little. As for the standards, I don't think the forum should be as "tight" as other places. While I understand the need for strict interpretation in some forums, I could see it killing this one quick. I'd like to see it become a relaxed atmosphere, where if a critique seemed out of line, the mod was someone who could send an IM asking for a reword or delete from the person who posted. This would solve a lot of the problems with what many view as censorship. At the same time, if the member was unresponsive or took it personally, the mod would have to be willing to step on toes to keep wars from breaking out, and I respect that. Also, the mod should be able to spot other potential forms of abuse not incumbent in the ToS outright. I personally could foresee people trying to use this forum as a place to gain comments, views, and votes for their image that they did not necessarily warrant. I could also foresee several ways it could be used to sell products ( which is the domain of the Product Showcase ) and to start flamewars. Whatever mod got put in that position, would have to know their way around the membership pretty well, and have pretty good judgement. Ironbear comes to mind, for me, because of the things I've seen him do in C&D, which included a lot of times knowing when something was about to happen, and diffusing the situation with the people involved on a one-on-one basis. Of course, C&D wasn't always under control, but IMHO it would have been a thousand times worse without IB's abilities. Contrary to what Slynky thinks, I also think Micheleh would do well in the forum, if she could handle the extra work. I say this, because, contrary to popular belief, I think she has a good heart, and sharp wits. I think the OT forum has forced her to get seasoned quick. My only caution in that matter would be to her, to not let herself think that this forum could be handled the same way OT is. It just wouldn't work. OT's run the way it is because of the nature of the forum, whereas, to be as strict in this forum as is necessitated in that, would lead to so many more problems. The last thing I'll say on moderation is this: Whoever you pick, make sure that all the mod's have a good consensus from day one. The witnessed inconsistencies in TOS interpretation could be easily stopped, if the mod teams took the time to see past their differences, and act decisively. Basically, I know that the inconsistencies are because you are all different people, with different POVs, and when there's no one around to consult, each mod/admin must act on their judgement. All I'm saying is that, before the forum even opens, all the mods involved should find the time to sit and discuss any abuses and grey areas they should look for, and decide how the TEAM will deal with them if they occur. What's the old saying? "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cheese curd." Wait... that's not it.... Anyway, I'm done telling you guys how to do your job, I'm sure you're much better at it than I am... Just thought I'd speak my mind FWIW. Regards, Paul

You mean I had the right answer?! WOOHOO! Actually, I just made all that stuff up based on something I once read put out by the Department of Transportation. If I keep this up, maybe I can go on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire". And btw, Pauls are good people. So are folks named Pavel, Pablo, and !Xabbu. ( !X is pronounced with a clicking sound made from the back of the throat, and is only used in the language of the Bushmen of the Calihari ) Regards, Paul

On two side notes: #1: I have no idea why my last post is in italics. #2: As long as threads are getting shuffled around, I notice this one has diverged completely from the original topic of "Why was a thread moved?" to something else ( I'm not sure what ). Does that mean this thread will get moved to the OT forum? ( If it does, I apologize in advance to the mods over there ) *8^> Regards, Paul P.S.: If it DOES get moved, please post a brief note to let me know where to... I get over 100 ebot messages a day and don't really want to sift through them all.

While I appreciate your outrage over my banning, and admit that at the time I was pretty outraged, too, this has little do with what's going on. First of all, I'm not gonna let that topic get dragged up again, because it's been sufficiently put to rest by all involved parties, and has no place here. I know there are a thousand fanatics ready to lynch the admin and run screaming through the streets, but, frankly, it's no one else's damn business. You can't seriously be suggesting that BH is starting a lynch mob, and then broach that whole wierd-ass topic again in the same post, without considering the results, can you? Secondly, Blackhearted didn't start this issue... It was originally opened by bebop under the nick of virchual, then later reopened by one of BH's customers who noticed similarities, then again opened by bebop under his virchual nick, and most recently opened by VirtualSite. As for BlackHearted's "crusade", and I'm not sure he'd welcome my speaking out on this for him, but who cares, he's actually avoided the bulk of what's been going on, only having stepped in ( so far as I can see ) when someone was publically posting against him on matters that he felt were untrue. As far as witchhunts are concerned, there isn't one, zardoz. Bebop/virchual/zoeloves/whatever nick he thinks of next has already been banned. Furthermore, he/she/it continues to come back to this site, and attack members. If those members being subjected to the attacks speak up and say, "Hey, bebop's back!" It's not a witchhunt, it's a call for administrative action. Frankly, I'd be ticked if action wasn't taken in this case. Regards, Paul Btw: After reviewing the other thread ( link above ) it wasn't BH that started the issue, and it wasn't BH who posted links, and asked for zoeloves ( bebop's newest nick ) to be banned. All that BH DID do is get really pissed in public. Who wouldn't in the same position?

If you really want a more solid answer to your question, btw, I'd recommend IMing either audre or spike. She's the admin who originally put the idea out there, and he's the admin in charge of forum coordination, as I understand things.

I'm pretty sure the mods and admins are discussing things, PabloS. The general procedure, as I understand it, is that someone puts the idea out, then they let people respond to get an idea of how much support is out there. After that they probably discuss the new forum, what it would entail, and how it would be run, assign moderators, etc. and then open it up. Also, as I understand it, this critique forum idea is probably gonna take a bit more time to get running, just on the grounds that it's much more prone to abuse than most. IMHO, they're probably gonna take some time to establish the ground rules before opening it for business, to avoid trouble they've had in other new forums in the recent and not so recent past. Keep in mind, this is all speculation, based on the way I've run my site in the past, but, in general, the same issues apply universally. Regards, Paul

P.S.: I have no idea where the post I made attacking bebop/virchual/zoeloves/whoever was... it was a month ago, but if anyone bumps into it, feel free to IM me and I'll delete it. Paul

It seems a little wierd this thread is still an issue... First of all, the actual thread that matters was moved, and while no link was provided by admin, someone, out of the kindeness of their heart, took the time to post the link... who was it that did that? Oh, wait... it was me. Also, this isn't really a matter of a thread that was moved to quiet it down or suppress it, it was moved to that forum because, undeniably, JenyK is the person to deal with it. One of my threads was moved there, too, awhile back, and I'm rather glad that I got the feedback from the person who's actually appointed to deal with those matters officially. Also, Jeff: There's something to be said for precedent. Several weeks ago I posted on a thread that made some pretty harsh statements about bebop/virchual/zoeloves. They were quite obviously a personal attack, and so I IMed Spike to ask if it was acceptable, or if I should delete reword my post. As far as I know, that post still stands in the original thread, and there has never been a complaint to me about it, on the grounds that the individual I was making an attack against was no longer a member here, and had repeatedly acted in ways that, I felt, necessitated a calling out. In retrospect, that post of mine was out of bounds, but, in Blackhearted's defense, bear in mind he's working from the assumption that it was acceptable before. Lately, there have been a lot of changes in rosity administration, and a lot of shuffling of mod's and admin's positions that is affecting various TOS interpretations. Perhaps it would be incumbent for the mods and admins to use their own channels to develop some sort of concensus or guidelines to what was the proper interpretation. Don't think I'm bagging on you folks... I think you're doing a fine job... But from the member's side of things, it gets a bit tough to know in all circumstances what's ok and what's not. Most people shouldn't ever have a problem with the variations in interpretation from forum to forum, but those who do are probably also going to be the ones who speak out the loudest when they feel they've been stepped on, regardless of whether or not there was actually a stepping on involved. Well, I'm broke, so... no $.02 from me... Regards, Paul

Atom: Speaking from experience, you should draw your product testers from friends and people you know well. A lot of people think this is 'clique' politics, but there are some pretty good reasons for it. Personally, I've got a few friends who are merchants here, and they get their testers his way because: A.) They can trust them. No merchant wants their product to show up in a shared folder, or being warezed in any way, prior to release. And, B.) You probably know your friends 'style' and ability better than anyone else, thus, you can usually talk your testers into doing promo images, or posting their work with your product in the galleries to help support it's sale. Just good common business since. Don't rely on support from folks you don't know, unless they have a pretty well known reputation for integrity and thoroughness. On a related note: Your friends can take direction and criticism better from you, and you from them. Meaning, a stranger's going to feel awkward giving you advice, and you really don't know how they'll take it if you say, "This image is no good..." and ask them to redo it. Just my 2 wampum's worth. Regards, Paul

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=655276

I had that same thought, miyu... People should be able to give negative constructive critiscism without being afraid of hurting feelings. This way, if a person posted their image and asked for feedback in the forum, it would be saying, "It's ok to discuss my flaws." There have been a lot of times that my friends have asked me to tell them what I thought they were doing wrong, and I could tell them honestly, without coming across as mean or picky. As long as the mod team was good at recognizing the difference between a constructive negative comment, and a troll, I think it would work out marvelously. Paul ( Who, the more he thinks about it, really likes this idea )

Heh... Cross-posted Sipapu... I agree with your point, completely. A critique forum would have to allow for both ends of the spectrum. I think it could be easily workable, as long as the mods and members could work together to keep it clean. I wouldn't mind someone saying one of my images was dull, lacked technical ability, etc. so long as they didn't say, "Entropic sucks and shouldn't even bother." Most of the people I know want honesty in their feedback. I don't think it's honest to use hurtful commentary, even though a lot of folks would defend it as such. Honesty generally implies objectivity. If the mods of such a forum could understand that simple axiom, and maintain that standard, I'd frequent the forum. Also: I've noticed that a lot of the best artists have either lowered the frequency of their posts, or stopped altogether. Many of these say that it's because they don't feel that comments like, "Nice Work." and "Good Job" are useful. If this forum would give those people a reason to return, and even help newbies, then I think it's worth a shot. Paul