I have Poser 2, but started with Poser 3. Everything I did with Poser 3 was pretty bad, so didn't do a whole lot with it. With Poser 4 Pro I started doing more, but I still didn't like the results that much. I got Cinema 4D then Carrara. Liked the results I got with Carrara the best, so I stuck with it (and Poser) for years. The Poser/DAZ "split" forced me to chose one or the other because I couldn't afford (justify) supporting content for two different applications Since DAZ owned Carrara, I went with DS/Carrara.

I still remember how fun it was to be able to pose what passed for realistic figures on my own computer back in the day (and make some really silly stuff the the kids)! Poser made it affordable, much less than the other options. The first figure I ever used other than the included figures was V3, I was a beta tester for Jim Burton's Glamorous Jessie. I still remember how much everyone disliked Jessie, but I actually liked her.

Anyway, thanks for the trip down memory lane.

ironsoul posted at 11:54AM Sun, 09 February 2020 - #4379592

Think that's a pascal nvidia driver function and not related to poser or cycles, if you're 10xx card plus recent driver version (2017+ ?) it should work. I've rendered 30GB texture scene on a 8GB card ok.

Thanks!! That's huge, I must have been under a rock when they announced out of core memory (they really should make this a big marketing bullet point ... or maybe they have and I'm just blind). Hopefully after 11.3 comes out I can give the free demo a test drive (RTX card). Might have to start saving some $$ to get the upgrade.

Thanks for the info!! I'm guessing that this will use the latest version of Cycles? If so, I'm also wondering if anyone knows 11.3 also supports out of core memory (rendering scenes larger than will fit in GPU Memory using system RAM, but still rendering on the GPU)? IMHO this would be huge, and might entice me to seriously consider upgrading!

Regardless, it's good to see Poser moving forward again

Hello HKHan99, and welcome to the madness of 3D!

I've read your threads in the other two forums, and thought this forum may be the best place to post a response (the Blender forum would have worked too, but I use DAZ Studio a lot, so this is the one I chose). As you may well have already gathered, there is no simple response to your questions. Everyone tends to have their favorite software, often for different reasons, but one thing that is fairly common is the closer the logic in the workflow and the design of the UI fit with the way you think (especially when first starting out), the easier it will be to learn. It sounds like the logic and UI in Blender 2.8 is a good fit for you. I'm just learning Blender 2.8 myself, and I'm finding it very easy to use, with a lot of great features (soooo much better than the previous UI).

I should give you a bit of background, so you know where I'm coming from and you can better evaluate my opinions. I've been involved with 3D of some sort since about 1990, I started using Poser with version 3, I started dabbling with DAZ Studio (DS) when is was just a beta product (i.e. before is was version 1). I did my first real modeling with Cinema 4D (version 6), and then Carrara Studio (version 2), and have also used Hexagon for modeling. I've used several other 3D software packages, but those really don't pertain at all to what you are doing (more for technical landscapes and virtual archaeological site reconstructions). My focus has never been for any type of comic book style renders, so I'm fairly ignorant there! I have also had a real love/hate relationship with Poser. It has always seemed to have so much potential, but for what I've wanted it has always fallen a bit short, with the last version (Poser 11) being the first version I didn't upgrade to (even though I was very interested in Superfly, it seemed like it was rushed out the door, and didn't have what I was looking for). So, I'm not a big Poser user, but have had a fair amount of experience with it.

If you decide on Blender "only", the biggest hurdle might be finding the figures you want for creating your comics in a native Blender format. I have no doubt that Cycles (or Eevee) will be able to provide the comic render style you want, and the real-time view port rendering of Eevee, or near real-time view port rendering of Cycles will no doubt be perfect for the view port visualization you want. The real question is can you find enough affordable pre-made content in Blender format for your needs (or depending on your needs, you may have the time and desire to create your own, which makes the pre-made content issue mute).

For the content side of things, Poser or DS might be the perfect "addon" for Blender. I know there is a way to export from Poser to Blender (IIRC the steps needed are in the Blender forum here), but don't have any experience with it. I have tried the diffeomorphic plugin for DS, and it does a great job of exporting content from DS to Blender (including fully rigged Genesis figures and clothing with all the needed JCM's, and quite good conversion of the shaders to cycles). There is another exporter by mCasual called "mcjTeleBlender 4" that also looks quite promising as well (you can find more information about it on in the Freebie forum at DAZ 3D).

Personally, I prefer DS to Poser. The UI just works better for me, and most of the content, IMHO, far exceeds what is available for Poser (though Le Femme may help Poser to catch up). However, there is a big caveat in the previous statement .... I prefer a more or less real 3D style, not a comic style (see my galley for reference). So with that in mind, Poser content may well perfectly meet your needs. I do think if/when you feel so inclined, you should definitely check out DS to see if the UI and workflow work better for you, but that would only be if you decide you need content, or if maybe Blender isn't quite capable of delivering a workflow you want. If you are able to use Iray to create your comics, then I think DS would give you the view port visual capabilities you are looking for using Iray preview in the viewport. However, you might run into some similar issues to Poser with things not displaying correctly in the view port if using 3Delight.

Anyway, welcome to the world of 3D, where very little is as easy as it seems it should be!

quietrob posted at 4:15PM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359560

Penguinisto posted at 11:04PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359545

meatSim posted at 3:43PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359539

I think a sub only model would certainly kill the app. Of course as soon as that happened its 'free competition' would certainly become a paid subscription as well.

That would require iClone to do it as well, as well as the 10+ alternatives that a one-minute Google search coughed up... Did you know there's even one you can use in a browser?

I just checked it out, it looks like they co-opted Aiko 3 and Rendo's copyright!

You "made me look". Interesting app and figures. I'm surprised that no one has noticed the "Woman" figure is a dead ringer for Jessie that came with P6. She has a shape, especially her head, that I doubt you would see on a figure that wasn't some sort of derivative of Posers Jessie. Interesting .....

As for the Poser subscription subject, I don't believe I would be interested in a subscription without a clear road map for where Poser was going, and some very real improvements along with a must have figure. I dropped Vue Complete for this very reason, vague future and subscription only, I'm now learning how to replace Vue with Blender. However, there may be potential new users that would actually prefer the subscription model, if it was very cost effective.

Been there, done that, even though I know better ... I will no doubt do it again ....

EClark1894 posted at 12:26PM Wed, 07 August 2019 - #4358884

Can't argue that one. Especially since, again, iirc, Poser actually beat DS to the punch on several features. Btw, and we can argue semantics, but I don't consider a "plug-in" or a "Script / python" to be a true feature of that program. But that's just me, I guess.

Thought I should clarify, because I'm not quite sure what plugins or scripts you're talking about. DS now has integrated dynamic cloth (dForce) that both users and vendors can make dynamic cloth with (not a plugin). DS has integrated strand based hair now that both users and vendors can create/style hair (not a plugin) but dynamic hair creation is limited to DAZ PA's only (using dForce). DS also has an integrated full featured key frame editor and graph editor (not a plugin anymore, apparently they acquired the plugins from GoFigure, and integrated them into DS, with some improvements). Just an FYI, they have also finally address some of the long standing IK issues, and issues with pining (sliding feet).

But here's the thing that no one seems to be getting. If DAZ is losing money on DS, but making money on content, then why cut out Poser? They'd make even more money by making Poser compatible content, wouldn't they? In fact, they've appeared to go after other markets that are even more incompatible than Poser. So, it's not that it can't be done. They just don't want to. Switching to DS was never really in the cards for me anyway, as DS never ran on my Mac, to get Genesis, I would have to load DS on my Mac to get it. But DS wouldn't run on my Mac, so... I tossed the idea of making a Poser compatible model, but was dismissed almost before I wrote it down.

I think if you take the 20,000 ft. executive overview of this, the answer is quite evident. Yes, they could have made a semi functional version of Genesis for Poser. So you need to ask yourself why a business would not do so to ensure a continued revenue stream. The only logical answers I can come up with are 1) the estimated return on investment (ROI) was ether less than the estimated profit from sales, or 2) while there may have been and estimated profit from sales, it was still viewed as a overall potential negative ROI due possible negative impressions from a less than fully functional figure in Poser. Keep in mind, DAZ was at Genesis 3 before they completely dropped support. No doubt by then they felt they had already lost significant numbers of the Poser user base. The problem with Poser is that it doesn't have dual quaternion skinning, and also needs to "break" the figure apart into several vertex groups. These two factors, along with probably a very small Poser only user base at the time of the introduction of Genesis 3, may have made the decision easy. Not enough ROI to make it worth while.

Why work to get Genesis in other markets? Seems to me that is a part of trying to expand the user base beyond markets where it currently resides. Maya has the proper skinning method (dual quaternion) to accept a fully rigged (including JCM and MCM) Genesis 8 figure without any conversion to another skinning method. Plus, much of the heavy lifting was already done by the original script creator, so one would think that DAZ will have very little real investment in this. So, while the ROI is an unknown, the investment is most likely relatively small. The original plugin developer may still be the one doing all the work, with assistance as needed from DAZ, This may also be viewed as a way to understand what hooks into DS need to be created for others to write similar plugins, which may expand the market even more with no additional investment by DAZ (third party importers). Of course this is all speculation, but it makes sense with my limited cranial capacity.

EClark1894 posted at 10:53AM Wed, 07 August 2019 - #4358899

Btw, Dustrider,

Just so you know, I harbor no ill will towards you or most other DS users. Because I DO prefer Poser, I also understand your preference for DS. Peace be unto you, my brother. I hope we can still be friends in this 3D community.

Same back at ya!!!

EClark1894 posted at 10:24AM Wed, 07 August 2019 - #4358884

Honestly, I don't think you really know what would make Poser better, and the way you keep throwing around that perjorative, "Poser faithful", sounds like you're spoiling for a fight. I won't give it to you, but I will defend my position. But again, that's only MY opinion.

Yes, I'm sure you don't think I know anything about anything. That's just fine, I'll keep my lack of knowledge to myself (now, if others would only do the same). I'm sure this is how people grow and learn right? "You don't know anything so just keep your mouth shut!" Sounds just like things said in that video you posted. Jeeezzzeee, you crack me up!

Sorry for the Poser faithful thing, if you have a better term for it I would be glad to use it. I need a term that doesn't include the entire user base, as there are many users who seem to continue to use Poser, make/post images, and are quite happy with it (there are some great artists that post in the galleries, Poser as it is seems to fit their needs, but they never seem to use the forums) I don't want to include them as a part of the group I'm talking about. The group I'm talking about are the ones who are ultra sensitive to anyone saying anything bad about Poser, or more importantly, anything good about the competition. You can't compete if you don't know anything about the competition. There is an old saying that goes something like "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". Well, that's just the opposite of how the Poser forums have operated. So what would be the proper, non-inflammatory name to use for those who want discuss how things need to be better, but only if their preferred scope of views are expressed, and any miss information is left uncorrected?

Sorry for stirring the pot, obviously I'm clueless

Penguinisto posted at 9:54AM Wed, 07 August 2019 - #4358876

Sucker. ;)

lol ...10-4 that!

Just wanted to say "Howdy ... it's good to see your still around!" Not a lot of us old farts left around here .... though you probably don't remember me, since I'm more of a lurker (you were "here" before me, but I lurked for a long time before joining the fun).

Got to agree with everything else you said, both in your response to me, and your other posts in this thread! Hopefully Rendo gets the picture from their sales what has happened to/with Poser and they aren't in a state of denial. I find it amazing how people continue to blame everything and everyone else for the current situation. I find it particularly troubling that often the vendors are blamed for the situation, and for "following the money". Yet no one ever asks themselves why is there more money for supporting that "other" software and that "other" figure (well I might be wrong here, as so have indicated that it because that other software is free - but that's not why I left). Maybe because someone else understood what their customers wanted? Anyway, take care, I'll pop in every now and then to see how your doing, and hopefully just keep my mouth shut.

EClark1894 posted at 3:05PM Tue, 06 August 2019 - #4358818

Penguinisto posted at 6:19PM Mon, 05 August 2019 - #4358803

So, okay... which "other programs", specifically?

Poser's only direct competition right now is pretty much DAZ Studio and iClone... at least for software that costs less than $500 or so, and doesn't require a zillion plugins.**

There's a couple of other suites that come in between $500 and $1000, and after that, you'd better check your credit limits.

Not saying Poser should stand pat, but seriously? Trying to reach about and cover every conceivable base will destroy the application's efficiency, usefulness, and UI. If Poser can do all that DAZ Studio can do and maybe a bit more, then it's ahead of the game.

** I'm sure there are probably others, but they're likely too obscure, too specific/platform-dependent, or don't carry the same feature set.

Actually, the way I see it is that Studio can do everything that Poser can do. Yes, it can probably do it better. It has learned from Poser's missteps. Now, admittedly, I don't really use Studio, so I only have a passing familiarity with it, but basically what does Studio really do that Poser can't? And what it can do, it took a little time to catch up to.

Sorry, but one more and I'm gone. They are quite close now in terms of "features", and DS has finally caught up with integrated dynamic cloth that the user(s) can create (although there has been a script available here for years that let users create cloth for Optitex, and of course the VWD plugin). DS has also, sort-of, almost caught up with dynamic strand based hair. Any user can create and style strand based hair, but dynamic hair can only be created by DAZ PA's. Also, I think Posers morph brush is much better than the dform tool in DS (though the integration of DS and Hexagon give a free/cheap option for quick corrective morphs). Posers response to AutoFit, the Fitting Room, isn't quite as seamless and easy to use, though it may be easier for power users to get more out of it (I say Posers response, because it came out after Autofit, it may have been on the design table first, but it looked more like a response to Autofit to the general public).

Posers response to Iray is Superfly, and IMHO it really doesn't seem to really compete (this is coming from someone who doesn't own P11, so please correct me if I'm way off here). From what I gather, it doesn't have all of the features of cycles (which is a great render engine), requires a bit of hoop jumping too use HDRI's, and from images I've seen (with the exception of a handful of artists) the output really doesn't compete with Iray. IMHO, so far, Superfly has been a huge miss-step by Posers former owners. Bottom line, a software like Poser will be initially judged by the quality of it's output. If there are only a handful of users that are producing "Oh WOW" output that is as good as, or better than the competition, your first thought is that it must be really difficult to get images that compete with the competition. Now this may be a 100% wrong impression, but from viewing the galleries, that is the impression I get. I would expect Superfly to easily produce images as good as, or better than the images I've created in DS. If this were true, I would expect to see many more awesome images posted in the galleries. True, there are users that will never be able to produce awesome images unless we get a make art button, but, the Poser galleries seem to have a disproportionate number of almost P4 quality images to awesome images. True, there are a lot of uninspiring images in the DS galleries, but there are also a lot of really amazing images. Objectively, someone making the decision to go with DS or Poser (not really knowing anything about either one), with pick which one?? So while they are more or less equivalent in terms of features, the one with a greater number of awesome images will probably attract more new users.

So now, Poser has (maybe) a new flagship figure, Renderosity needs to make that figure as attractive to new (and possible old) users as possible (awesome images made by average users), and make the use of that figure as painless as possible for the end user (and as easy as possibly for Vendors to create for).

OK, off the soapbox and back into the shadows.

EClark1894 posted at 1:37PM Tue, 06 August 2019 - #4358761

cobalt posted at 4:46AM Mon, 05 August 2019 - #4358742

Animation layers have never been fully utilized within Poser. It's nice that you can create them, but it would be far better if you could create animation sequences on layers and set them to loop, or drag them around the timeline like clips in after effects.

Poser desperately needs a glow/lightbloom effect, too. This falls once again under the heading of "Why can Source FilmMaker do this but Poser can't?"

Additionally, I would like to see the following controls added to the image and movie texture shader components: Flip Horizontal, Flip Vertical, Invert, Rotate (by degrees)

Seriously, this needs to stop. It's okay to wish that certain features existed in Poser that aren't there now, but we've got to stop wishing that Poser can do everything any other app can do. The answer is quite simple. If you need something done that Poser doesn't do, make that app a part of your tool workflow. Otherwise, Poser will become prohibitively expensive. I remember when I first got into Poser, there were other apps that were more feature robust, like Maya, Lightwave, and 3DS Max. Lightwave, the most popular, was also the most expensive. A thousand dollars, if IRC. Even today, Maya is basically a subscription service. $195 a year, or 4 years for $4000 dollars.

Here's a video I found on Youtube about what happened to Lightwave. I think there's lesson in there somewhere. What Killed Lightwave?

OK, I knew I shouldn't look at the Poser forum, especially this thread, but curiosity got the better of me, and now I just have to say something. Sorry in advance for interrupting everyone's bliss.

Interesting that you post a link to a video that highlights what you seem to be doing here. I think it's also interesting that throughout most of the video, you could substitute "Poser" for "Lightwave", and it fits amazingly well.

Before I go any further though, I just wanted to mention that the features Cobalt mentioned aren't asking for the sun, but just asking for what other 3D software already has that she feels makes her life better. Also, I just have to add a minor correction (probably just a typo on your part?), Lightwave was not the most expensive, and in fact among the big names (at the time it's popularity started to wane), it was the cheapest. Making it's demise even more instructive.

Now for a few direct quotes from the video you linked:

"Lightwave became irrelevant due to an inability to change, a loss of key talent, and an actively hostile user community"

Maybe from where you, and other Poser faithful are sitting, this doesn't sound like what has happened to Poser. But for those who have moved on, and especially for those who have asked for Poser to have features and content available in DS also in Poser, it probably sounds quite familiar!

"There was incredible resistance to change in the Lightwave community."

Does this sound familiar? Even though some of the remaining faithful say poser needs to move forward, when someone posts about features they would like to see in Poser to help it compete with the competition (yes, DS/Iray has bloom), they get told to "stop it". Really????

"The final nail in the coffin of Lightwave was the user community, as previously stated, the users helped to retard the development of Lightwave at a crucial time, as many users left for other platforms. The only ones on the forums were the Lightwave hipsters. If you didn't like the way Lightwave was set up, or you found the software killing bug, the problems was you, never Lightwave."

This seems just like here (and the now defunct SM Poser forum), the Lightwave Community wasn't interested in knowing why people were leaving. Which is just insane, no business can ever succeed if they don't understand what their customers want. Keep in mind, with Lightwave they were leaving to use more expensive software. However, with Poser, many have left to use free software (though some have moved on to the "Big Boys").

"It became one of the most toxic groups I've ever encountered"

The exact reason I quit the SM Poser forum, and why I quit visiting this forum until Rendo bought Poser. Unfortunately their buying Poser didn't remove the toxic environment. If you really want to know how to improve Poser, and make it attractive for people again, you need to be better than the competition (assuming it remains a "paid for" product). You can't know what the competition does better by sticking your heads in the sand, plugging your ears, and going continually "nanananananana".

OK, now the Poser faithful can flame at will .... like they always do. I'll check back sometime to see if anyone really want's to have a real conversation about what I think Poser needs to become successful again. But my guess is like on the Lightwave forums, the Poser faithful really don't want my opinion, unless it's to say how great Poser is.

Peace out!

Penguinisto posted at 5:39PM Wed, 31 July 2019 - #4358321

wolf359 posted at 7:15PM Mon, 29 July 2019 - #4358311

Well Daz inc is already tied into the NVIDIA framework& eco system with IRay so it is not surprising that NVIDIA RTX would come to Daz studio.

^^^ This, precisely. You have to have the support built-in first, and DS has had it since 4.10(?) You also have to have a specific nvidia driver installed for it as well (And your GPU has to be new enough support it, and...) Pretty sure Poser ain't got that quite yet, since RTX is only what, a year old or so at most? (I honestly don't know, but it most likely is newer than the last patchset for Poser 11...)

By the way - anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but before now, IIRC you could not use both GPU and CPU at the same time in iRay - if the render was too big for your GPU card RAM, it kicked to CPU (I disabled CPU rendering entirely in 4.10 and earlier, so it wouldn't throw a rude surprise at me and shove my 'puter to molasses-speed CPU rendering). I've only been able to barely pop DS 4.11 open since I installed it; I might have time Wednesday to really give it a real test, though.

Anyrate, sailing way off-topic here... no idea if Poser has RTX support, or even if it would need it?

Iray in DS has been able to use either CPU, GPU, or both since it appeared in the first beta (but most people don't use "both").

As mentioned above, RTX support is coming to Cycles .... but new version would need to be integrated into Poser which, as also mentioned above, may take a significant programming investment and may not be available for a while (though we could be surprised).

Sure, but put them through prolonged high-end rendering, and they'll fry. Running a program and heavy use of a program are two different things.

I have to agree with Penguinitso based on my own experience. Properly made laptops work just fine for 3D and rendering without frying, I've been using them for years (almost all the images in my gallery were done on a laptop). True, they are not as fast as a high end desktops, but they are so much more convenient, which for many can be the most important factor. Try taking a desktop to a meeting to do a presentation or a live demo. Try taking a desktop to a lunch meeting, not very practical. I've had my laptop render for over 72 hours straight with no ill effects at all (the GPU never got over 60c), it's about 3 years old now and hasn't fried yet!

Want to render a lot of animated videos? Easy, just use a real professional 3D software, set up everything on your laptop, then send it to a render farm and get it rendered in less than a day. There are many freelance Blender artist that do this. They can take their work with them where ever they go. IMHO ignoring the mobile user will highly limit potential new customers (I know very few people under 28 that have a desktop computer, and most that do have a "real" computer (not just a phone or a tablet), it's a laptop).

As for what makes a good figure, that's a bit of a loaded question. IMHO, at a very basic level, what makes a good figure is one that is easy to use, easy to customize, easy to cloth, has great third party support, has outstanding shaders, is usable in a platform (software) that has a render engine that produces professional quality renders, and has a user base that is producing outstanding art. I'm also not going to invest in a figure/software platform where the majority of the renders posted are ..... well lets say .... don't look as good a what I produced 15 years ago. IMHO you really can't say a figure has to have certain set technical features, without also addressing figure usability and render quality. Unless your going for the professional market, it doesn't matter how technically "awesome" a figure is, if the average user (or even the content providers) can't easily produce inspiring renders. It's the renders posted here, and in other galleries, that inspire people to buy.

Cycles and Eevee are two very different render engines with to very different target audiences ...... sort of. What I like best about Eevee is it gives me realtime feedback of Eevee or Cycles shaders (for those that are the same). For projects where Eevee works, it's awesome! Think of doing an animation at 1080p with high a quality "PBR" renderer at 2-3 seconds a frame - that's what Eevee can give you (view port rendering is almost instantaneous). However, so far it seems to fall short with very large complex scenes (and poorly made models with polygons that are parallel and very close together), where Cycles shines. My understanding is that Eevee is an OpenGL renderer (I could be wrong).

With respect to Poser, I doubt Eevee will ever come to Poser. I don't think it has the same liberal licensing that Cycles has.