To Recap:
1). pushinfaders wants the forum to have  photographic genre challenge not photoshop challenge hence "keep postwork to a minimum" statement/rule.
2). inshaala feels the statement/rule can't be defined further as it becomes too difficult to regulate and adds to the workload of the contest administrators.
3). it is felt through experience the addition of a more defined statement/rule will discourage entry to challenge.
4). members decide for themselves whether or not to submit an entry using their own interpretation of the "postwork" statement/rule.
5). members having submitted an entry  may still have it deemed ineligible by the challenge administrators for what they consider excessive "postwork".
6). it is felt through experience that the voters would be uninterested in any postwork information or the transparency of postwork.
7). tom's pictures speak to him ;)
8). and art doesn't want any pie;p

My feelings:
1). i agree with.
2). i disagree with.
3}. i disagree with.
4). i agree with partly.
5). i agree with, but why can't the criteria they apply be available to all? Is it like the freemasons?
6). i disagree with.
7). don't worry tom mine speak to me too, but I've got pills for my condition ;)
8). if art don't want his pie I'll have his ;P

I am reluctantly prepared to bow to the experience of those who have replied to this thread, but wait to see what developments occur in the future.

If the April Genre Challenge is indicative of what is deemed acceptable by the moderators in the terms of postwork, I'd love to see the rejected images. And can't wait to see what appears in May's Genre Challenge (postwork-fest yahoooo!!!).

Pushinfaders I apologise for telling you, you couldn't count, in a public forum. If it happens again I'll tell you in secret. If you still need to use my fingers and toes just let me know ;)

Hi

To pushinfaders:
I'll not respond further to the "untruthful" remark. I merely stated that you were incorrect in your calculation. If it is not my right as a member to challenge inaccuracies please say so. You could have responded quite simply to my query by stating:

"Having received a query about the result of the April 08 Genre challenge from a forum member. The result has been reviewed and the result was a tie between Deviney and Dibs on 31pts each. However, the image submitted by Deviney received five 1st place votes and the entry by Dids received only four, therefore the  result will remain as previously stated."

As previously stated in an earlier thread I am a relative newbie to the photography forum. Unlike yourself, I don't have the advantage of historical knowledge of the previous discussions or practices of the forum. The forum is an organic system which changes e.g. forum members will come and go and therefore the "mindset" will change within the forum. The forum cannot remain rigid and fixed in its views of what the forum members want or require. The forum administrators will receive queries, challenges, suggestions and recommendations to change the practices and policies of the forum and I believe these should be noted and periodically presented for approval at a set time of the year, like an AGM. If this practice already occurs please advise me and I'll take note.

To TomDart:
My concern is not with regard to the production of postworked images but in the transparency of the postworked techniques used so that those who are less knowledgable may be better informed when it comes to voting for an image. For example, if my wife who is also a member of the forum, were to vote on a challenge she would do it based on the final appearance of the presented images. She has no or little knowledge of postwork techniques and would thus be making an uninformed decision based solely on the appearance of the image.
 
To All:
As a newbie to the forum, maybe somone would like to explain the rationale behind the "keep postwork to a minimum" statement. I still don't see why you can't have transparency about the postwork involved in producing an image.

The impression I get from the statement is to maintain the purity and integrity of the original image, maybe I'm wrong. As awjay stated, "I consider myself an image maker not singularly a photographer". He obviously distinguishes his work as either a photographic image or an artistic image by the amount or type of postwork involved, as do I.

Is the purpose of the challenge within the Photography Forum to post a photographic or an artistic image? The impression I get from some of the thread replies is that "anything goes" because they personally have the ability to discern overlypostworked images and don't require such information to make that judgement but they don't deem it necessary or desirable for others who may be less informed than themselves to have that information, see example presented above.

Hi

To pushinfaders:
As I previously stated I wasn't making a personal criticism just making an observation. You supplied the methodology by which the challenges are scored. As a member I checked for myself and found the result to be wrong which I queried at the time, even supplied the relevant information. It took a couple of minutes to do. If those who administrate the forum don't have time to check voting results and liase between themselves to verify the results, then I am willing to volunteer my services to provide a secondary check of the results, after the challenge is declared closed.

To tomdart:
This forum consists of beginners, amateurs, keen-amateurs, semi-professional and professional photographers. What may be "generally accepted" to a professional photographer will not be to a beginner or an amateur. If the end image is all we have to go judge by then obviously the "professional" and heavily postworked image will generally appear more pleasing to the eye. How can we make an informed choice if the information is not supplied, especially if we have two that are similar e.g. see the 1st and 2nd place winners in the April challenge? It may be that information that will allow us to "see" which image is closer to the original image.

To inshaala:
What's the point of having a rule if you can't enforce it? If you don't define the rules or set boundaries within the rules then the rule becomes a mockery. for example, If you have a football (soccer) competition and say that each team must have a goal, but you are left to set your own width of goal, and the organisers don't have time to check that you are complying with the established and "generally accepted" dimensions or constraints. Then what happens is that those who wish to bend the rules, do, and win the competition. The competition then becomes meaningless and those who do follow the rules and live within the spirit of the competition become disillusioned and decide not to participate in future competitions. 

To All:
Suggestion 3.

1. Set challenges, we all need a challenge
2. Have the rules about not using our stock images, so that we go out and shoot something fresh.
3. Make the challenge non-competitive ( no voting on images). This will ease the burden on administrators.
4. Allow people to post their images in their galleries, where they can receive their plaudits.
5. Let the voting be for the choice of the next month's challenge topic with the options either submitted by the forum members or the administrators.

Hi Pushinfaders

Thanks for the explanation regarding the points system, as a newbie to competitions I was unaware of the scoring system. I thought it was like the Olympics with rankings of gold, silver and bronze medals. However, with the new information, it would appear that No 57 and 19 tied on equal points.

No.57 5x1st 1x2nd and 3x3rd totalling 31pts.
No.19 4x1st 3x2nd and 2x3rd totalling 31pts.

If the judges made a decision to award first place to No.57 entry, can they say what aspects of entry 57 swung the vote in its favour, just out of interest to those who aspire to take better images?

Sorry to add to your burden of work/commitments

michaeldonnelly1963

:)

Are we allowed to challenge the announced winners? I agree with the first place and second place results. If the vote of scoleman123 was disallowed for being after the voting deadline, then according to my reckoning No. 11 should be awarded 3rd place as it had 2x 1st, 1x2nd and 2x3rd. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. Congratulations to all the winners. Not that it makes any difference to me, but I like to see fair results in competitions. Looks like next time I'll have to grab myself an old wrinkly to photograph as they seem to do well in the voting, hehehe. Apologies again if any of the winning submissions were self portraits ;p

1. image # 5
2. Image # 16
3. Image # 33