Firstly, may I state that this is not a personal criticism of anyone involved or participating in the forum.

I am making these suggestions after the reviewing the April genre challenge "Portraits" results and declaration of winners dated 30/04/08.

Suggestion 1.
In future challenges can we see, detailed in the image description, a declaration of any and all postwork involved in producing the final image? This will ensure that the "postwork to a minimum" rule is not being flaunted.  It will also show how true the final image is to the original image. Additionally, it will also give some insight to those who aspire to turning their photographs into something more special, on how to achieve it.

Suggestion 2.
Can we have voting counts double checked, by a second judge or co-ordinator to confirm the scoring.

How do the other forum members feel about these suggestions?  I know that this month's challenge (Photo Manipulation) some submissions may require the production of an essay to describe postwork activies if suggestion 1 were taken onboard!!!

Obviously, your suggesting that I counted the votes wrong.

Would you like to volunteer to help? I can always use another hand doing this..

I'm totally serious...you don't have to be a staff member to help out with something like this..

As to the other suggestion, and this is just my opinion...To me, that's making too much of a project out of a simple challenge..
We have a hard enough time getting peole to submit image that are the right size...requiring that would just cloud the issue even more..

I believe each challenge is unique and post work may be simply stated with something like "generally accepted" or no note at all. For images which fit the "photo manipulation" genre, perhaps a note can be made by the poster to that affect. 

All in all, even if implemented, I believe the voters will choose the results based on how the image appears to fit the challenge and of course, image quality overall.

The portraits challenge did show one thing to me: Voters preferred the portrait to be human portrait, in the portrait sense, not family shot or animal.   Sure, some were postworked to emphasize the character of (and the person within) the photo.  This is done everyday both in digital and darkroom and causes no problems for me whatsoever.   

I am sure the suggestions will be considered but for the moment, I do believe the forum leaders are slammed.   Having worked with these folks over time, they do take suggestions seriously and must weigh the value against ability to implement without a full blown forum debate on the issues.

If others have thoughts on the post beginning this thread, please say so.

I am grateful for the challenges in the present forms and not at all unhappy with that.   We will see how it goes.

TomDart.

By requiring postwork to be announced you then by inference need to have a stringent set of rules which set a boundary to what you can and cannot do to a photo. Being a member of another such website i know the problems involved in keeping to such a tight policy of "such and such is allowed in a photo at this level of competition".  Also - to get so pedantic on the subject would mean submitting originals of the photo to the team for review (so they can recreate the steps involved to check if any "foul play" has occured). They already have enough on their hands to be bothered with a challenge which is (as far as i know) only present in this forum on Renderosity and put together on the essence of "good will"...  "let the voters decide" i say...

Surely you can recognise postwork , I'd have no problem helping make decision's,  surely you could implement a simple system of asking people to be truthfull with there work & add a littlecouple of letters to there work (Pw?) 
 Unfort yes it's very difficult & time consuming to moderate such a challenge , So all the best to those in charge.
 Always outspoken lol :) & has to get to work , peace!

Hi

To pushinfaders:
As I previously stated I wasn't making a personal criticism just making an observation. You supplied the methodology by which the challenges are scored. As a member I checked for myself and found the result to be wrong which I queried at the time, even supplied the relevant information. It took a couple of minutes to do. If those who administrate the forum don't have time to check voting results and liase between themselves to verify the results, then I am willing to volunteer my services to provide a secondary check of the results, after the challenge is declared closed.

To tomdart:
This forum consists of beginners, amateurs, keen-amateurs, semi-professional and professional photographers. What may be "generally accepted" to a professional photographer will not be to a beginner or an amateur. If the end image is all we have to go judge by then obviously the "professional" and heavily postworked image will generally appear more pleasing to the eye. How can we make an informed choice if the information is not supplied, especially if we have two that are similar e.g. see the 1st and 2nd place winners in the April challenge? It may be that information that will allow us to "see" which image is closer to the original image.

To inshaala:
What's the point of having a rule if you can't enforce it? If you don't define the rules or set boundaries within the rules then the rule becomes a mockery. for example, If you have a football (soccer) competition and say that each team must have a goal, but you are left to set your own width of goal, and the organisers don't have time to check that you are complying with the established and "generally accepted" dimensions or constraints. Then what happens is that those who wish to bend the rules, do, and win the competition. The competition then becomes meaningless and those who do follow the rules and live within the spirit of the competition become disillusioned and decide not to participate in future competitions. 

To All:
Suggestion 3.

1. Set challenges, we all need a challenge
2. Have the rules about not using our stock images, so that we go out and shoot something fresh.
3. Make the challenge non-competitive ( no voting on images). This will ease the burden on administrators.
4. Allow people to post their images in their galleries, where they can receive their plaudits.
5. Let the voting be for the choice of the next month's challenge topic with the options either submitted by the forum members or the administrators.

"As I previously stated I wasn't making a personal criticism just making an observation"

let's be real here OK? it was personal..To say it wasn't ..just isn't being truthful.

as for a rule about not subg stock photo's...That's overstating the obvious isn't it? If the majority of the members want's a line added about that..fine easy enought to do that..

Non-competitive...we've been there and discussed this previously..That is why we have two challenges per month..

The entire point of two challenges..is this..the forum challenge is less formal..you can post a comment in the thread about the images posted..The Genre Challenge is more formal..more rules..

If the images are posted to the gallery..then it defeats the purpose of commenting in the forum thread..it could be dome that way..but it seems pointless to me.. besides then it is no longer annonymous..we discussed this previously and the members perfer it to be annonymous.

Voting..voting can be done right on the challenge page..and let an automated system tally the votes in an un-weighted manner..We used do run it this way..

But, we had a few ties..and back in the older days of Rendo..This is how we used to do voting...
There is less of a chance of a tie..I showed the members this option..then voted and decided this is what they prefered.

Voting for the next subject..been there done that one too..doesn't work..getting people to make a clear cut decision  in a given time fram edoesn't happen..

"What's the point of having a rule if you can't enforce it?"

I have a feeling that was exactly the point i was making.  Creating a new set of rules which set a boundary for what can and cant be done to an image is a lot of effort, check out this ruleset for the challenge site i mentioned:

http://www.dpchallenge.com/challenge_rules.php?RULES_ID=17

they have a team of 16 people who, each week, have to enforce those rules - and that is pretty much all that they do apart from moderate the forums on the site. To enforce those rules is to ask for specifics of postwork and require the entrant to send the original to them for review... is that really applicable here? And would not increased rules deter entrants?

As you will know Rich, from being on this side of the "fence" enforcing the rules is not too difficult.  From this month on we have asked for the exif info.  So apart from checking the dimensions and file sizes we can now check when the photo was taken. If the entries don't meet the criteria we won't put them through.

If we had loads of people on the team, with some doing nothing else apart from checking challenge entries, more rules could be applied.  We have enough on our hands. 

Getting entrants and keeping the interest is hard enough without putting would be entrants off with loads of rules. 

EXIF should be fine.  I always use an image taken during the challenge period or if I don't get one I have no entry.  That is quite fair and timelines are one reason this is actually a challenge to me, besides producing a  photo good enough to enter.

Michael, I can understand you concern for the beginner and feeling of advantage to the more experienced.  I was pretty new at digital imaging when first entering a challenge, am better now but still far behind the really great photographers here. I grew by seeing the photos by others in both techinical and artistic levels. And, I cannot remember a challenge in which many really poor images have been entered. The choices are generally not easy when voting.
I cannot agree that the most postworked will "please the eye" better than the quite well composed photo with minor postwork.  The winning entris are certainly some or experience but also of personal point of view and creative thought of the challenge theme.

I would not vote for a poor photo any more than vote for one appearing over postworked.  Seeing the creative photos of others is a benefit of the challenge area and as in other contests. What the viewers select as best to them will be,  even if that disadvantages the raw beginner. I see no reasonable way to level that playing field and am not certain such would be desirable.

My real wish is more entries but more than that more voters.

Your thoughts are appreciated.        Tom. 

thats why i dont enter very often as i postwork most of my images

i consider myself an image maker not sigularly a photographer.....

Fred, if they shoot film or otherwise do not have EXIF, we must rely on the integrity of the entrant. I can go for that.

When ever we are not sure we contact the member for more information.

Thanks, friend. That makes it clear. 

Hi

To pushinfaders:
I'll not respond further to the "untruthful" remark. I merely stated that you were incorrect in your calculation. If it is not my right as a member to challenge inaccuracies please say so. You could have responded quite simply to my query by stating:

"Having received a query about the result of the April 08 Genre challenge from a forum member. The result has been reviewed and the result was a tie between Deviney and Dibs on 31pts each. However, the image submitted by Deviney received five 1st place votes and the entry by Dids received only four, therefore the  result will remain as previously stated."

As previously stated in an earlier thread I am a relative newbie to the photography forum. Unlike yourself, I don't have the advantage of historical knowledge of the previous discussions or practices of the forum. The forum is an organic system which changes e.g. forum members will come and go and therefore the "mindset" will change within the forum. The forum cannot remain rigid and fixed in its views of what the forum members want or require. The forum administrators will receive queries, challenges, suggestions and recommendations to change the practices and policies of the forum and I believe these should be noted and periodically presented for approval at a set time of the year, like an AGM. If this practice already occurs please advise me and I'll take note.

To TomDart:
My concern is not with regard to the production of postworked images but in the transparency of the postworked techniques used so that those who are less knowledgable may be better informed when it comes to voting for an image. For example, if my wife who is also a member of the forum, were to vote on a challenge she would do it based on the final appearance of the presented images. She has no or little knowledge of postwork techniques and would thus be making an uninformed decision based solely on the appearance of the image.
 
To All:
As a newbie to the forum, maybe somone would like to explain the rationale behind the "keep postwork to a minimum" statement. I still don't see why you can't have transparency about the postwork involved in producing an image.

The impression I get from the statement is to maintain the purity and integrity of the original image, maybe I'm wrong. As awjay stated, "I consider myself an image maker not singularly a photographer". He obviously distinguishes his work as either a photographic image or an artistic image by the amount or type of postwork involved, as do I.

Is the purpose of the challenge within the Photography Forum to post a photographic or an artistic image? The impression I get from some of the thread replies is that "anything goes" because they personally have the ability to discern overlypostworked images and don't require such information to make that judgement but they don't deem it necessary or desirable for others who may be less informed than themselves to have that information, see example presented above.

"For example, if my wife who is also a member of the forum, were to vote on a challenge she would do it based on the final appearance of the presented images. She has no or little knowledge of postwork techniques and would thus be making an uninformed decision based solely on the appearance of the image."

And, would her decision be a bad one because the postworking was not revealed?  Images are photographics, yes.  This does not eliminate artistry but encourages it.  I see artistry as the goal to reach in photography unless one is bound to technical photos only.

We do not agree but I do see where you are coming from.  This is where I come from in voting for an image:  Does the photo catch my attention?  Does the photo in some way speak to me?  If so, the producer of that render has done better than others.

I do not vote on the technical merits only of a photograph and obviously overdone postwork will eliminate it from the voting when I start through the challenge entries.

Telling all the post work done would not hurt but would require much more than needed for a challenge based on the image more than the "how it got there".    While of interest to some, I would likely not read the extra info and change my votes.

And, by the way, what if I shot film and actually knew enough about it to truly pre work my shots? I would choose the film for saturation, contrast and grain desired..I would have the film developed in the manner needed for a certain result...I would likely shoot with lens filters at the get go...just a thought.       TomDart.

Enough said by me on this thread.

Micheal...I'm pretty straight forward..I call things as I see them..plain and simple..

I admitted in that thread there could be an error..I'm not that much of an ass to think I don't make mistakes.. Just in my opinion..dropping me a line privatly would have been a better choice of actions..
"Hey Bruce, I think ya counted wrong...I got this number.."

The rules stae the following
In the case of a tie for first place, the challenge managers will make the final decision.

As to the keep the post work to a minimum section...I wrote that..why?

because for the most part, it's a photography challenge..not a photoshop challenge..

when an image comes thru and it seems like to much post work..we discuss it and make a decision as a team..

Whomever's left standing, post a sign on the door!

But, Seriously, doesn't images taken with a digital camera have the camera information embedded in the photo? If this can be easily verified, then when a "No Postwork" rule is in effect, the camera information should still be embedded. If postwork is done on the photo, it'll be missing. Ergo, the photo should be rejected by the moderators. There should not be a small size limit on the full-sized photo forcing contestants to resize and save. You can just state what setting to use to take the photo. The photo would be uploaded directly to the Renderosity contest. No more hassles.

To Recap:
1). pushinfaders wants the forum to have  photographic genre challenge not photoshop challenge hence "keep postwork to a minimum" statement/rule.
2). inshaala feels the statement/rule can't be defined further as it becomes too difficult to regulate and adds to the workload of the contest administrators.
3). it is felt through experience the addition of a more defined statement/rule will discourage entry to challenge.
4). members decide for themselves whether or not to submit an entry using their own interpretation of the "postwork" statement/rule.
5). members having submitted an entry  may still have it deemed ineligible by the challenge administrators for what they consider excessive "postwork".
6). it is felt through experience that the voters would be uninterested in any postwork information or the transparency of postwork.
7). tom's pictures speak to him ;)
8). and art doesn't want any pie;p

My feelings:
1). i agree with.
2). i disagree with.
3}. i disagree with.
4). i agree with partly.
5). i agree with, but why can't the criteria they apply be available to all? Is it like the freemasons?
6). i disagree with.
7). don't worry tom mine speak to me too, but I've got pills for my condition ;)
8). if art don't want his pie I'll have his ;P

I am reluctantly prepared to bow to the experience of those who have replied to this thread, but wait to see what developments occur in the future.

If the April Genre Challenge is indicative of what is deemed acceptable by the moderators in the terms of postwork, I'd love to see the rejected images. And can't wait to see what appears in May's Genre Challenge (postwork-fest yahoooo!!!).

Pushinfaders I apologise for telling you, you couldn't count, in a public forum. If it happens again I'll tell you in secret. If you still need to use my fingers and toes just let me know ;)

Quote -

Whomever's left standing, post a sign on the door!

But, Seriously, doesn't images taken with a digital camera have the camera information embedded in the photo? If this can be easily verified, then when a "No Postwork" rule is in effect, the camera information should still be embedded. If postwork is done on the photo, it'll be missing. Ergo, the photo should be rejected by the moderators. There should not be a small size limit on the full-sized photo forcing contestants to resize and save. You can just state what setting to use to take the photo. The photo would be uploaded directly to the Renderosity contest. No more hassles.

Just thought i would point out that you can keep the Exif data after postwork - look at pretty much every shot in my gallery - you see the information there (only times they arent are actually because the program used doesnt save the exif in its processing as it is actually in Beta at the moment).  Interesting that those shots are "straight from camera" in your estimation - i'd love that to be the case.

And size issues:

• Server bandwidth and user bandwidth -> load times and stress on server. A full size jpeg from my cam is around the 3-4MB size...
• Stealing images - wont go into it, but it is a known problem and would deter entrants.
• Ever tried looking at a 3504 x 2336px shot (that is only 8.2 megapixels and some people have 12+ megapixels) on a 1440x900px screen? (not even going into a 1024x768 or 800x600px which the majority of people use on the internet )

Michael - check the galleries for levels of postwork... what is allowed in there is effectively allowed in the contests - obviously minus the obvious new addition "Photomanipulation" (as far as my knowledge goes on the subject) - and yes there have been images disallowed for non-photographic additions etc.  Maybe the rule should be worded differently to avoid the confusion which seems to stem from the word "minimal" to something along the lines of "Postwork should be kept within reasonable limits of photographic acceptance" or whatever - you get my jist hopefully. The winners of the portrait challenge didnt use ground breaking techniques to get the shots from camera to what they are now and i would consider them to be within the realms of "normal" photography postwork... i personally see no problem with them.  But then i'm at the other end of the scale in terms of photographic traditionalism and conservatism having never shot film at any level other than holiday snaps...

And btw - you disagree that my point is applicable, not that it is true because it doesnt take a genius to understand what i mentioned is completely logical... more rules = more work for those imposing the rules. Simple.

Quote - Just thought i would point out that you can keep the Exif data after postwork - look at pretty much every shot in my gallery - you see the information there (only times they arent are actually because the program used doesnt save the exif in its processing as it is actually in Beta at the moment).  Interesting that those shots are "straight from camera" in your estimation - i'd love that to be the case.

Well that blows my theory. How can you keep the exif data on your images after modifying the photo andshrinking it to fit Renderosity's guidelines. Mine is always lost afterwards. Thanks for the info.

Hi

To inshaala/moderators:
Is it technically possible to have a statement within the challenge guidelines saying, "Please refer to Postwork Guidelines" with a link to a one off, but permanent statement?

The "Postwork Guidelines" statement could define what is deemed acceptable photographic postwork techniques. Each technique could be grouped under an appropriate  general heading (as you would probably find in most photo adjusting software packages). The General heading could carry an abbreviation which the challenge submitter would enter within the image description, thus providing some transparency about the techniques employed in producing the final image.

The "Postworks Guidelines" statement could be compiled on assignment, reviewed and adjusted by the moderators, before being presented to the forum membership.
 
The Guidelines could be updated and approved as new techniques arrive.

Moderators/challenge administrators need only be involved in checking an image's elligibility if they receive a query from a member (via site mail) who feels the guidelines have been breached or there appears to be no coding suppied by an entrant. The moderators/challenge administrators could contact an entrant to request information to be supplied, or if deemed necessary request an original image. They would have the final say as to whether an image be included or excluded from that particular challenge.

If, as some of those who have previously responded, the majority of members/entrants share your opinion regarding the existing levels of postwork, and with the "Postwork Guidelines" to refer to and operate within, then the moderators should have a pretty quiet time.

It is still my personal belief that if you have a competition where the rules are not clearly defined, then eventually the competition loses its appeal. Time will tell.

Ok..this entire converstaion is going in circles..

This isn't directed at at one person..so..wtih that being said..

http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php

Keep the member conduct code in mind

Members and users are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that is constructive and respectful of others at all times. Additionally, we hope that each member/user will work to facilitate a culture of collaboration and positive reinforcement, so we can all share our passion for art while developing our personal ambitions, and friendships.

In regards to post work:

Editing an image is simply another way of using the tools that you have. Before the advent of digital photography, photographers use to edit images in the dark room with various methods of dodge and burn. Image manipulation and editing has been around since photography, and there is simply no way to change it. Many professionals and some amateurs have exceptional skills when it comes to editing an image.

While I myself am not fond of editing images, I do more than not. To take away the option, let alone make the artist declare the editing, is absurd. I understand where you are coming from, but as a photographer, I use every tool I have available to me to make my images stand out.

Keeping photos natural, as in taking away post-work, is like telling people that they cannot remove objects from the frame in the shoot. That you are not allowed to manipulate the subject, that everything has to be as is. Keeping things ‘pure’ is left to the photographer to decide and should not be enforced upon the forum. While I agree that there should be a limit, many of the participants in the challenge understand what is acceptable and what is not.

In regards to the competition:

What is really at stake if someone does not win? I do not recall getting a single vote on my submission. What I learned from that is how to be a better photographer. Is the competition fair? I do think so. The rules are rather obvious to even the daftest of persons. It is a photographic challenge; hence the image should have minimal post work.

Personally, I do feel that you are giving too much of a burden to the forum. There is only so much that can be regulated and said. If you do have a problem, address the co-ordinator or moderator of the forum. While I agree the rules are simple, there is no need to complicate things. It is a matter of trust that people will do what is right. Your statement about there being a ‘post-work-fest’ for the next challenge simply implies that you are going to break those rules.

To scoleman123:
"If the April Genre Challenge is indicative of what is deemed acceptable by the moderators in the terms of postwork, I'd love to see the rejected images. And can't wait to see what appears in May's Genre Challenge (postwork-fest yahoooo!!!)."

The operative verb in that statement is "to see".  No intention to participate. No intention to break rules.

Apologies for the two part reply. My wife miscarried what would have been our third child last week (6 weeks) and required my assistance.

To scoleman123:
"Postwork-fest" remark, is based on my personal observation of the examples shown in the Photo Manipulation gallery from the link within the Genre Challenge. 

There have been very few images that were rejected because of too much post work..Most likely they could be counted on one hand..In a year nearly two years..That should give you an idea, of how few it is. It's not some big mystery or some secret society, as was implied previously.

michaeldonnelly1963, I'm really disappointed that you would drag this discussion down to the level of correcting another members grammar.

"It is still my personal belief that if you have a competition where the rules are not clearly defined, then eventually the competition loses its appeal. Time will tell."

Well, your welcome to your opinion.But, the facts prove otherwise. The Genre Challenge has been going on for nearly two years. The last one was quite popular.  I think this thread may been keeping people from participating in the current one.I'd have to look it up, but I don't think the first time we did this genre it didn't have huge numbers.

"The "Postwork Guidelines" statement could define what is deemed acceptable photographic postwork techniques. Each technique could be grouped under an appropriate  general heading (as you would probably find in most photo adjusting software packages). The General heading could carry an abbreviation which the challenge submitter would enter within the image description, thus providing some transparency about the techniques employed in producing the final image."

I'm sorry, but do you really have an idea what this would entail? ???? Good grief, I could think of a thousand different thing to do with an image in Photo_shop.

Once again...this isn't for a million dollar prize...The idea of this challenge is for the individual to challenge them selves...To get all of us, (myself included) to work out side of our comfort zone..Try something different..It's to get the landscape Photographer to try photographing people..To get the studio photographer to talk a hike in the woods and shoot nature..

This is the only complaint we have about this challenge..I don't see much support for your point of view..

Case closed

To pushinfaders:
Why is it you can allow scoleman123 to imply that I was intending to participate in the May Challenge and "break those rules" and impune my integrity which I consider a personal attack, but I'm the one getting a reprimand for setting him straight?  Why don't you refer to the member conduct code you posted earlier in the thread? Why is it others, in other threads, can correct grammar, but I can't?

Fair enough,  I accept that the majority of those who have responded to the thread have stated their disapproval of the recommendations I suggested. Just because they don't agree with me doesn't mean I have to agree with them.  I will follow the accepted way of doing things. As I stated before, I'm a newbie to the forum and don't have the historical knowledge of the practices,procedures and policies of the forum. Pardon me, for caring enough to suggest improvements and solutions to problems, don't worry it won't happen again. If I need assistance with anything I know who to approach and I know who not to bother with.

**michaeldonnelly1963

****Ya know..**You started this thread to make some suggestions.That's great..I'm always open to suggestions. This isn't "my" forum..it belongs to all of us.

You've slung your share of mud in this thread...So, why are you crying because someone gave some back.. I didn't really see that comment that way..

Your suggestion that any of my responses here have violated the member conduct code is just incorrect. But feel free to contact the administration of this site if you that have have been wronged.

**"Pardon me, for caring enough to suggest improvements and solutions to problems"

**I'm sorry...but that's a childish statement...

"If I need assistance with anything I know who to approach and I know who not to bother with."

You can contact me at anytime..That's always been the policy here. It seems obvious that  statement was directed at me..If I'm wrong please correct me..Otherwise..Why not just come out and say it ??

Just to set the record straight, you were not reprimanded..If you were, that would have been done in private.

To pushinfaders:
"Your statement about there being a ‘post-work-fest’ for the next challenge simply implies that you are going to break those rules."...scoleman123

Please explain,  "I didn't really see that comment that way." ...pushinfaders

What way did you see it? Please clarify?

"You've slung your share of mud in this thread...So, why are you crying because someone gave some back.. I didn't really see that comment that way."

Please identify specific incidents of "mud" that I've slung in this thread.

I don't need to report you to the adminisrators, someone has already contacted me and said that they were going to report your behaviour for the following:
i)   Abuse of power
ii)  Lack of impartiality
iii) The use of intimidation in your responses which tends toward "bullying" and seeking to provoke a negative response. 

They have suggested that I may be able to take legal action and sue for damages against Renderosity for the "bullying" tone of your responses. They have advised me that they have taken a copy of the thread for use as evidence.

I'm sorry but what "damages" are there possibly from any sort of discussion, argument, "brawl" online which can be incurred?   I'm seriously amazed you would even consider that.  You should join in a gaming website forum discussion, you wouldnt last a minute without a lawsuit being thrown at someone if that is your attitude.

Btw - that wasnt being impartial and saying you havent any reason to think what you do about conduct in this thread, just an observation on the sue-happy culture which seems to now permeate through the western world.  Contact an admin by all means, but seriously...

Think it is about time the thread got locked tbh...

To inshaala:
Did I say that I had considered it, just merely stated that it had been suggested?

But I agree, it is time to close and move on.

i hope no new members read this.... it will drive them away in droves.......i have always been fairly treated on this friendly site.... sure ive been pulled up over a discretion but it was handled fairly..... and i have no complaints.... if i hadnt i would have left......

i personaly dont enter these challenges because i do a lot of postwork on my images..i consider myself an image maker using a photograph base , rather than singulary a photographer ...... photographers even in the pre digitalal age used plenty of filters and dark room techniques to achieve a pleasing image ....

after all photography is fun isnt it ?????

Lets just all calm down, before things get really out of hand. 

WOW Guys.....way too serious for something that is supposed to be fun and enjoyment!

well said my friend