Matt......for what it's worth, I wholly agree with you. And Andreas, I respectfully disagree. Much of my work looks nothing like fractals, or the original render, and that is quite purposeful on my part. :)

Message edited on: 10/29/2004 16:04

Yikes.

I will respect your guidelines as best I can (although I think I made my opinion known ;)) but much of my work looks nothing like fractals, and in a goodly amount of images, like the one below, about five percent of it is fractal and ninety-five percent is Mindy messing around. So I am kind of surprised you would use me as someone who adheres, because in actuality, I truly don't. My work, according to your guidelines, in all honesty does not belong here. :)

You're right, Barbara. A moderator's job is a thankless one: no matter what you do, you're blasted for it. :)

I think Renderosity is a wonderful place, too. That was never the issue....not to me, anyway. This forum and website is just a microcosm of what goes on in all fractal and/or art communities.

I hope that this vote or exercise results in lessening the restrictions, which some people do unfortunately seem to favor. That was the concern, and about which some of the commentary was based.

Andreas,

I think we'd have a hard time defining what "digital comix" mean to each of us. They used to call Warhol's art "comics", too, and look down their noses at it. Now you'd need to have a hefty bank account to even touch one of his scribblings on a cocktail napkin.

I say that if someone puts a mandelbrot in the middle of Spiderman's cape, it should be embraced in this gallery. Even if someone thinks it's crap. And even if it is.

M

Message edited on: 10/12/2004 23:20

What a fabulous post, Terry. Very eloquently stated.

I think this sentence of Rick illustrates my point quite nicely: "I've enjoyed most of the supposedly "mis-posted" images immensely and to not have seen them would have left my life a good bit less enriched." I think enlarging the fractal umbrella, instead of restricting it, embraces the true meaning of art. I have no argument with those who eschew post processing. That is their choice. I don't judge it, I just enjoy the end results of whatever methods they choose to employ. I don't care what tools they use, their vision is what counts to me. I don't care about the limitations they put upon themelves---artists do that--it is the limitations one puts on others that bother me. I think we are so obsessed with terms and names and titles and rules that the art gets crunched underfoot.

I think you have the patience of a saint, Nick. You're a good moderator trying to implement the will of the people. The problem is that the pettiness and holier-than-thou attitudes of those fearful of embracing art for art's sake undoubtedly makes your job virtually impossible. Because no matter what is decided, the flat-earthers will whinge loudly, as they always do. They'll see their sacrosanct "pure" fractals as an abomination when tampered with. They know nothing of art, all they know is their own narrow, dogmatic beliefs which have not a thing to do with the meaning of art.

The obsessed concern of some people as to whether or not something constitutes a "pure" fractal makes my stomach roil. This kind of thinking is a bone in the throat of anyone hoping for fractal art to ever attain legitimacy as an art as opposed to a mathematical exercise or ego-driven pursuit. Anyone who deems it necessary to define art by their own narrow standards, or define what a fractal should be and how it should be made should be ignored with a relentless vigilance. All it does it narrow the playing field and frighten away any artist with a scintilla of innovation.

Trying to please the majority in itself is not a bad thing; it only becomes dangerous when the majority are the equivalent of a Mandelbrot Taliban. I hope the true meaning of art prevails, although every time I read a thread like this one, one of many discussions I have seen, my hope for that kind of healthy, logical thinking dwindles to the size of an atomic particle.

Mindy

I just love your work, Rosemary. I always have. You have your own special and impressive style. Kudos to you.

Oh for crissakes.

Where is my eyeroll icon?

Get rid of the damn rules and if someone deems a fractal a fractal, or if it has fractal IN it, then let the person post it in the fractal section. My God this is just trivial pettiness at its excruciating worst.

Mindy

Message edited on: 10/08/2004 23:28

Beer = Heineken? I'm in.

Eveline......There is a difference between expressing one's feelings and scolding people for it.

Good advice, Matt.

But....ya know, it's not just a website. You have to treat something the same way people treat it. In other words, if people take it seriously, then it must be taken seriously.

This is a community. I used to say "aw, it's just words on a screen," but I was wrong. People develop friendships from places like these. Hell, I know people who have gotten married from meeting on discussion boards and chatrooms. So, to many folks, it's much more than a website. It's like sitting with friends in a living room. And the words they read here can be just as powerful as if spoken in someone's ear.

As far as the top twenty, sure, I agree. I can't personally relate to why anyone would take it seriously, as it has been obvious from the start that the top twenty list and the best art are more often mutually exclusive than not. But, some people do take it seriously, and others clearly perceive they have been harassed. It doesn't matter if they actually were, if they think they were, then they were, and nothing anyone can say can change their minds.

I think we all care what happens here to a certain degree, or we wouldn't be posting about it. If enough people in the fractal community want that top twenty list gone, and I don't know if this is the case, then perhaps it should be discarded. As far as the harassment, that's another story altogether. In my mind, the ones on the receiving end of the harassment should be consulted about Arend's banning. Even better, a dialogue between them all might be helpful, although that would be up to those who feel as if they were victimized.

Finally, Eveline, you gotta stop scolding people, and let them talk about what is important to them. :)

Mindy

LOL Deagol :) Cutie :)

Hi Eveline, You have a lot of class, as I suspected. You stuck up for your friend, and that's to be commended. True, effective discussion comes from dialogue like this, dialogue that the moderator is trying to neuter. Too bad, innit? Mindy

I agree with Vicky that anybody who abuses anyone here, via IM or email, should be banned. Period. Nobody should have to go through that. It really should be a done deal, and not up for discussion.

Secondly, nobody should be scolded for expressing their feelings, which is why I got into a pissing match with a friend of Arend's---even though I understand and respect a friend's loyalty.

Finally, I am not sure, Carol, if you meant by a friend "turning on you" that they harass you, or if you simply meant they don't vote for your work. I certainly don't gauge my friendships that way. I would hope that people make that important distinction between honest critiquing of art and friendship, 'cuz they is two different planets. The friends that are nearest and dearest to me tell me when my work is sh*t, and I love them all the more for it.

If it was the latter, then it's probably safe to assume that more than one person (you) feels as you do--that you believe that a friend failing to vote for your work is tantamount to betraying a friendship. Even though I personally don't operate that way, I fully understand it and the hurt feelings that ensue. I am also not so sure if there is any "cure" for it, especially on a site like this.

An example you might relate to: I run a very busy discussion board. My dear friend moderates it for me. There are people in our overall community that I loathe, that she pals up to......and visa-versa. I can't tell you how many arguments and discussions we've had, and hurt feelings, because she "posts to" so-and-so, or I said a friendly word to so-and-so. We both, at various times, have felt it was a personal betrayal of the friendship. Through time and lots of discussion, we were able to draw up rules and boundaries for this kind of thing that we both felt comfortable with so we wouldn't have to hurt over this stuff again. The same thing may hold true for art voting here, that some kind of honest discussion with one's friends may be called for, if the relationship is real and truly important to you.

I hope everything works out for the best, and certainly hope that nobody ever has to be abused for the act of creating art.

Mindy