Thank you for the clarification.

I do not exactly know the exact polycount of the DAZ latest generation figures, but most "popular" figures run in the 17.000 to 25.000 poly for realism.

Anime figures, certainly those that go in animations usually hover around the 5.000 to 10.000 poly range.

And all latest figures use SubD (in both apps) to get their softness.

I think the latest hi poly figures where all V4 based including PE (around 68.000 range somewhere) but that is more then 10 ago. SubD has taken over since then.

Because , tja, then come the clothes, the rest of the scene, usually there is more then just one figure, it all adds up rather fast.

Forgive the question but are all vertex groups properly welded?

It is figures of this kind that is killing Poser, and it really hurts my heart.

PE that is WAY too complicated for general use, and the LaFemme's technical disaster brings some short term pocket money for some vendors, but they are NO long term solution and certainly NO long term investment, and certainly NOT the way to get Poser back track on a long term recovery to success.

It is everybody thinking, NOW and TOMORROW, but most of us want to see Poser back on track for many years to come. And there is NO place for NOW and TOMORROW fast and easy money at whatever the long term quality cost.

Glitter, if La femme proved ANYTHING, it is certainly how NOT to do it.

There is NOTHING acceptable, from the obj file over the textures provided up to and including the worst possible rigging ever.

The tubes as legs, the tubes as arms, the BLACK on WHITE specular map (rarely used and when used overwitten by proceduals just to get rid of it), the light grey over even lighter grey bump map.

LaFemme survives because of an AUTSTANDING Diffuse map, over a GREAT sculpt.

Nobody, nobody took the time to look inside.

Hey, come on, the knee Joint center is 3inches below the knee, and then trying to recover the tubes as legs?

And of course 120 JCM's

He, you can wear Santa clothes on a funeral, and give Easter eggs at Christmas.

In the first case you will be dressed, and in the second, at least you have a gift.

Bulging the biceps is in the bulge map, no need for a JCM => I have a video about that on youtube

The testing process itself is an issue for many figures. (Speaking in GENERALnow)

Somebody makes an obj file. That goes to a rigger and a texture creator. (Sometimes the same person, sometimes the a team of friends)

Then "usually" : The builder of the obj file starts making the morphs.

When all is ready, they send it off to testers.

Now, "a" tester finds an issue with the obj file. WTF? ? ? ? The rig banana's, the texture banana's, most of the morphs => Banana's. => All that time, all that work "lost".

The obj file, the "core" of each figure should go in beta testing WEEKS if not MONTHS before starting the rigging, texturing or morphs to prevent this mishap.

Most errors can ( or the start of most if not ALL problems further down the line) can be traced back to the obj file.

Example : You can have the best rigger in the world. But rigging tubes is completely different from rigging legs.

For a tube you put the joint center in the middle of the tube. Bend, bend and done. You have a tube.

To build a knee, you ALWAYS put more geometry in the area's that go in stretch and less geometry in area's that go in shrink, and you put the Joint center where the actual knee joint is. => Completely different outcomes. => Where is the error? => Who created the issue? => Do you have to add JCM's or change the rigging? => NO, you have to cut the obj file open and add and remove geometry where required, and only then re-rig.

And the most important, and most ignored part is. . . What rigging to use? ? ? No,

The most important part of the rigging is where you put the Joint centers.

Darrel Glidden was the retopology and rigger guy. Oef, grey cells returning to activity. Sorry Darrel, that one is on me. I must be getting very old very fast. (Have the grey hairs to prove it too.) LOL.

The SM figures, here we go.

Every release, SM tried to get figures in the app that where using the latest technology. => Deecey feel free to add info if required.

Long time ago, Teyon build the initial obj files, and then transferred the figure to a second person (I must be getting very old because I do not remember his name) to do the retopology and the rigging. During that period a third person made the textures.

Unfortunately for all of them that had to be done WHILE the Poser team was still coding the new version, and all that time they had to work with the new tech AT THE SAME TIME that a) the app was not ready yet, and b) there where still many- many bug fixes to fix.

In the end , the figures would be more or less ready at the same time as the app. Beta-testers time we had to test the "new" figures could be measured in weeks, sometimes only days. We always got the figures W A Y too late and W A Y too late in the process.

To give just a small example of Roxie.

The builders of Roxie had a great idea for geometry lashes. And Roxie was released with her geometry lashes.

During the beta testing we where focussing on obj file and rigging, texturing, and that turned out fine.

I do not remember the exact time; Was it a day before, the day off, or the day AFTER release, that I, (yes, again, me, myself and I) discovered that the Roxie head with those geometry lashes where NOT faceroom compatible.

That gives you an idea of the time frame the figure content creators had to work in.

For Paul and Pauline, our good old Teyon was doing EVERYTHING himself, the others where already fired.

Deecey had the same issue. She did a GREAT Job on the manuals, but was facing the same issue. The time to get the latest apps fixes in the manual on time.

Hello,

I see many possibilities for such a figure in anime, but also in the department of Race Queen, Grid Girls, animations and everywhere where fantasy primes over realism.

The "trick" with such a figure is to keep it technically as simple as possible (ultimate realism is not important) so that creators and end users can use the figure to its fullest potential without having to fight the technology behind it.

Low to medium polycount, decent weight-and bulge mapping, and you already have my idea about JCM's.

JCM's are fine, but they have to "do" something in 3D, not to correct less then perfect rigging.

Deecey posted at 11:15PM Sat, 29 June 2019 - #4355398

tonyvilters posted at 4:13PM Sat, 29 June 2019 - #4355395

In the good old days we had conventional rigging. It worked but had its limitations, so we enhanced it with JCM's.

And magnets. Which the more recent characters no longer use.

Then came weight and both bulge map rigging. Whaw, finally we could rig properly. (and some of us do)

Which negates the claim that Poser 11 is basically Poser 8 with SuperFly.

Tja Deecey, with older and conventionally rigged figures we got magnets and JCM's and with the newly released weightmapped figures we still get JCM's to fight.

So for the end user? Nothing changed.

I still hear Nerd3D say "content is king" , and then we get Paul and Pauline, and then he releases P11 without a fix for 31615 (and the about 20 or so related and well documented problem reports), then he has to rig himself, and falls in the JCM trap while saying at the same time ; , "Use the new tools". Well, what's he waiting for? All you need to do is take the time to do it. (And agreed, it takes longer then to create and load a JCM).

I posted screengrabs of my corrected figures multiple times on the ex-official forum, even accepting challenges from other figure creators up to the point they asked me to stop showing "what can be done" with proper weight- and both bulge- maps painted riggings.

Of course they build and load less JCM's.

What most forget is the deep impact 31615 actually has.

Each JCM you load becomes an "individual" in each and every vertex group concerned.

That is where 146 and 120 come from.

Oh, and want to hear the best news?

Don't use beta testers.

Get your "friends" to do the testing, they won't reports as many bugs because a) they do not have the the tech, and b) they don't want to report because they want to stay "friends".

Glitter, you are talking about weightmapping.

Aha, a great find. I love you deerly with all my heart and the rest of my humble body.

I have a little word :

In the good old days we had conventional rigging. It worked but had its limitations, so we enhanced it with JCM's.

Then came weight and both bulge map rigging. Whaw, finally we could rig properly. (and some of us do)

So why on planet earth are there 146 JCM's in PE, and 120 JCM's in LaFemme?

Let me tell you why.

The riggers don't know how to rig, and the beta- testers don't open their mouths.

Yes, I know who rigged La Femme, and I am shocked (and that is an understatement) And GOD only knows what Thigh JCM's are doing in the abdomen anyway. Damm, want to release a figure, learn how to rig properly.

2 evenings, 2 Evenings is all what it took to cut open the LaFemme obj file to transform funnels into legs and re-rig her completely without a single JCM.

I did not cut open PE, because the rig is the least of her issues.

As I wrote above, usually I am too soft.

I test, and testing and reporting is what I do.

Almost all "figure" reports are mine. How many got fixed? Alyson and Miki4 have 42 magnet errors (just an example). Fix? Roxy has unused morphs and bones. Fix? Pauline, no, I am gonna shut up about Pauline and Paul.

And what was the result?

Don't let Tony have a look at your figures because he finds bugs, and then, we won't fix them anyway.

And Tony got a bad name as "bashing" the figures while at the same time all end users are fleeing to the DAZ figures "en mass". And nobody asks why?

It's the figures and errors in them that chase everybody out. And a lot of never upgraded Poser5 technology while everybody was asking, no SHOUTING, for "room" improvements.

No, we got a measuring tool. Tja, OK.

I tested it's function and never used it afterwards. And I am in Poser each and every day as most here.

Deecey posted at 9:14PM Sat, 29 June 2019 - #4355369

shvrdavid posted at 1:44PM Sat, 29 June 2019 - #4355320

And it isn't because the service packs for P8 that we call P11 are "state of the art"

Not certain what you are saying here. Are you implying that there haven't been any improvements or features added since Poser 8?

Sometimes looking in a mirror does wonders. I understand his reaction. Hair room, Poser5 technology, hundreds of enhancement proposals and bug reports. Face room, Poser5 technology, same thing. Cloth room, Poser5 technology, same thing.

Basically; All rooms are still Poser 5 technology with little to no improvements/fixes, so Scott is pretty right in his assessment. And the Fitting room comes from my idea after long talks and proposals to Steve Cooper on the ambassadors RDNA forum.

Alyson, Roxie, Pauline and their male counterparts. Hundreds of enhancement requests and bug reports. Everybody running to the DAZ figures because nothing gets repaired, fixed or enhanced.

Sometimes one has to be humble and re-think how did it all get so far.

Most beta -testers did their job. They filed the reports.

I fear that is what he is saying Deecey. Basically P11 is P8 + SuperFly.

Some things have been added that nobody was asking for, while all major enhancement requests and major bug fixes are all still open.

I am afraid I more or less have to agree.

Honestly, I am angry at myself. I should have been pushing way harder and way more aggressive to get a permanent fix for 31615. I am too soft. I should have kicked doors.