danfarr on 10/25/02 22:08 "Cliff, I believe that Anton was gone so that is why you didn't hear from him again." No... Anton repeatedly asked for my telephone number as apparently the only way he was willing to offer me support (I draw this conclusion in part from the 2 e-mail responses in which he refuses to answer any comment of mine except to request my telephone number). After what I've seen in this thread I am not happy to hand out my number. I can't stand Shakespeare personally but he's my usual example when people say communicaiton cannot be accomplished via e-mail - it may be harder than face-to-face, but there's not much tha tCANNOT be accomplished via a combination of text, pictures, and (if need be) animations. "Please send an email to reba@daz3d.com and she can take care of your refund." I'll e-mail Reba directly. "I am sorry that your experience with us was not a good one." Not so much "not a good one" as "a throughoughly bizzarre one". "But as always, we stand behind the quality of our products. Sincerely, Dan Farr" Well, that's pretty much the point of this thread wasn't it? The quality of the product (effectively undocumented - very poor for $90 worth of Poser hair, especially if compared to the - less flexible - freebies around) was poor but would have been shrugged with a "DAZ, grrr, why do these people so often sit in their ivory towers and sniff haughtily at us?" but the suggestion that I shouldn't or wouldn't get support because I used Poser 5 was the real slap in the face that smarted so much. Follow that with both Anton's impatient "Where are you? You must have done this or that wrong, don't insinuate my stuff won't work with Poser 52 and your "If you have a problem with our product it must be Poser 5 and CL's problem, let me know if CL are unable or unwilling to fix your problem" (both MY interpretation, stated quickly for brevity) and... how on EARTH can I possibly have faith in DAZ? Spit on 10/26/02 02:53 "The second version of the patch is out and the transparency falloff default has been changed. MATs will work right off now." LOL! ANOTHER huge download no doubt. I'd better rush off and get it! Cheers, Cliff Bowman

wadams9 on 10/25/02 16:29 It was never an "idle" question, but a question - the query didn't so much soften the sentence so much as (at least in my intent and eyes) give it a completely different meaning. The difference between "this is a banana" and "is this a banana?". I think we'll have to agree to disagree here :( I have eschewed Anton's only offered forum for support - which would involve me giving him my telephone number which, after his statements & behaviour above, I am unwilling to do. He has not responded to any of my e-mails since I got home aside from to request said number or, finally, agreeing to call it a day. I'll have to try more e-mail addresses to discover how I get a refund. ssshaw on 10/25/02 18:07 "Cliff B. - thank you for starting a discussion that I found quite informative and thought-provoking." If I've provoked a single thought - jsut one - then it was worth it! Thinking is good. "I hope you won't quit posting because some readers (IMO) misunderstood what you were saying and where you were coming from." The only person that concerned me has since expressed better understanding of my viewpoint, so I'm happy in that respect. I intend to quit this thread simply because I intend to make it a non-issue for myself as soon as is reasonably possible, so there should be little or no reason for me to continue on these subjects. ChuckEvans on 10/25/02 19:00 "Who3d: I would tend to agree with you on documentation." Cheers - I think it's an issue which has long been left to lie and shouldn't be. "So, not trying to get flamed or anything (yeah, right!...chuckles...), but it seems to me P4 plus DAZ's Platinum Club = an opportunity to produce a wide variety of quality art for a good price with much less frustration." Absolutely! The Platinum offer is a great deal (or I wouldn't have joined up in the first place) - and I wouldn't have stuck with Poser 4 for so long if it didn't have huge potential. I just don't feel that DAZ products in any shape or form - at least with the current policies - are a "safe" bet for me if they're going to "support our products in Poser 4 not Poser 5" when I'm using Poser 5. This whole subject is now, I hope, closed. Come tomorrow I'll try and figure out what files need removing from where (no uninstall feature!) and who next to contact for a refund - because I don't need the extra hassle of situations like this one (as good as thought-provoking conversation is, I'd prefer it to be about art not mundane life). Cheers, Cliff Bowman

wadams9: Please read the initial post's subjec tline again - the query (?) at teh end was quite intentional and deliberate. If I was unclear, having been told that DAZ products purchased within the last couple of days were not to be supported because I was using Poser 5, despite my reason for requesting support being irrelevant to Poser 5, I was concerned about both myself and others purchasing DAZ products only to be unsupported. Not with problems relating to Poser 5 - but with regard to any aspect of the products. I find it bizzarre that it is apparently distateful to some to warn others of this possibility and attempt to open a discussion as to the pros and cons, as to how much of an effect this would have on combined P5 / DAZ customers, but it seemed appropriate at the time not to let this go unnoticed. I still believe it was the right thing to do, even if the title could have been more informative (and MUCH longer! Guys, that's what the body of the text is for). Cliff Bowman

Questor: "Poser 5 was never the issue - at least until DAZ made it the issue The assumption that poser 5 was the issue was taken from your thread title. Sorry if that assumption was wrong but it's kind of misleading to read:-" My bad, in trying to keep it short (blink!) It wasn't MY original issue - but I felt that DAZ telling me that I wasn't supported becaus eI'd said I was using Poser 5 - despite my problem being a general support issues that the version of Poser doesn't affect - added an extra issues (that of DAZ not supporting Poser 5 users - according to them) that I felt was worthy of discussion :( Jeff: Seems like a customer service issue that should not be worked out in public. I personally think it should have been worked out in private e-mail to begin with. I've e-mailed Anton and hopefully we can thrash things outprivately and post a "closed, sorted" post anon :) Dave-So: "Its very hard to infer a tone" Isn't it just though? :( PheonixRising: "lol. You guys are so viscous. I give up. I'm going to stick with answering emails. You need arour and a bodyguard around here lately. :) Who, we tried so hard to answer your questions and make you happy. You could have responded to at least one of my emails." ...and that's why I've refused to give you my phone number. WE'RE "viscous" (do you mean vicious or thick I wonder?). I am sorry I did not answer any of your e-mails whilst out with my wife and 15-month old son, or before answering the many wild and wonderful posts on here where the thing was obviously getting way out of control. I am just as unable to respond when no-where near my computer as you - I had hoped that I would be as worthy of forgiveness for that :( See my e-mail(s) (about to author #2). Cliff Bowman

PheonixRising on 10/25/02 10:49 "Ps: Rereading you email I think you are daunted because there was a change in P5 someone reported where all the morphs for "changing" parts are now listed together into one giant list where in P4 they just appeared with the part they were using. Sorry. We have no control over that change in P5." Nope, not one of my issues at all. Does P5 do this? Hadn't noticed it... "Like I said all the dials are labeled with Prefixes though. Fringybangs start with FB... StrandBangs start with S.... Curled Bangs start with CB.... etc etc" Starting to get there now - although I've not seen that before. Maybe it's in 1 of the e-mails I haven't read? I'll get to them later, hopefully. "his is what I woudl describe as "somewhat inexcessive" as far as documentation for a product costing multiple tens of dollars is concerned (especially where the per-item manufacturing costs is low due to a lack of materials being used). I'm not a particularly skilled hairdresser, but I'm pretty sur eI know where the fringe is. I'd guess that maybe fringy bands, therefore, would be near the fringe (or be the fringe). Since they are curled, though, I couldn't tell you where the Curled Bangs are. I'd like to refer to the image no. in the user manual (documentation) where all this is laid out, except it isn't. there's no such documentation. where I said in my original e-mail: 'Anyway, I wondered if there was any documentation on the huge array of options because I'm having trouble shaping the hair past (rather than through) the young lady's cheeks' What I meant was 'I would like to see some documentation that tells me how to use this thing, labels the parts, or at least describes what the acronyms used MEAN'. In case this still isn't clear, let's start with some of the advertising blurb: ---------------------------------------------------- HAIR - 59.95 Perfectly transmapped, over 100 poseable styles are possible using Vicki's Changing Ponytail figure 5 poseable ponytails 4 poseable bang options 4 free textures Hairline shaping morphs to fit all your versions of Vicki or Poser4Nude Female. 16 shaping, stylizing, motion, and length morphs EXPANSION PAK - $29.95 73 NEW detailed shaping, stylizing, motion, and length morphs for the 6 bangs, 1 base and 11 ponytails. Includes a new type of morph, not available in any other product for Poser, which swells the size of each individual strand without changing the way you've styled the hair. Expands Victoria 2.0's Changing Ponytail Collection to 11 Ponytail alternates and 6 Bang Alternates 5 New Ponytail poseable alternates 2 New Bang alternates ----------------------------------------------------- Now I for one would contend that a product of that apparent power, that aparent flexibility, that much complexity and a full prioe tag of nigh-on $90 deserves SOME documentation. Poser 5 is busy rendering a test aniamtion at present - based on MIMIc with "Ugly Girl from the 60's" that you've so kindly posted publically for me, and using said hairpeice. It's gonna take a while, so I can't read out the names of the dials for you - but are you SERIOUSLY telling me that a plea from a Poser 5 user for some form of documention shoudl be met with a response telling him (or her) that DAZ products are not supported under Poser 5??? Does such a product not DESERVE at least a simple manual? Does it not even deserve a readme which gives up-to-date web and e-mail addresses???? Questor on 10/25/02 10:52 Poser 5 was never the issue - at least until DAZ made it the issue. Moonbiter on 10/25/02 11:11 Can't add anything of any value here, certainly can't contradict :) danfarr on 10/25/02 11:17 My problem was and is unrelated to the fact that I run Poser 5. see above, but CL and Poser 5 are irrelevant to the product containing no documentation, my asking (initially quite politely I thought) for assistance in finding such documentation, and then Poser 5 being made such an issue out of. "As far as the future development of Poser 5 specific products (that incedently are useless for the majority of the customers who still only have Poser 4 at this time) we are working with Curious Labs on an agreement that would make us feel comfortable to do so (a unilateral agreement for all developers)." Yay, go for it. "This is definitely not a "pissing match" but a real catch 22 situation." If we're going to use terms like "pissing" then, frankly, I felt pissed on BEFORe Anton dug in and started sharing the exact contents of private communications (OK, I'm learning that nothing in a private communication is sacred around here, it's just taking time to come to terms with). I had an issue unrelated to anything but poor and incorrect documentation in a product purchased from DAZ, and feel like I've been pissed on from a great height - at least partly by someone shouting "Hey! Have some consideration will you? I'm trying to enjoy the sunshine up here!" "Our number one interest is to support you the customers." Glad to hear it, and I hope that this glitch at best contributes to getting the best resolution to what/who you support sooner than otherwise - because if it doesn't then it's been a waste of time and effort :( danfarr on 10/25/02 11:25 "I wanted to mention one more thing. As always we do offer a full 30 day satisfaction guarantee on our products. So if Poser 5 is unable to support Poser 4 content and you are unable to get the support you need from CL about combatability of Poser 4 created products we are willing to give your money back on your purchase. But according to Curious Labs, Poser 4 products should work fine in Poser 5." Please stop it. Stop the pissing match, because that's most certainly what you're doing. Creative Labs cannot help me with the utter lack of documentation provided with Victoria's Changing Ponytail Collection & Victoria's Changing Ponytail Expansion Pak. This is in no way whatsoever a Poser 5 problem but soley an issue with DAZ/Anton providing what I consider to be an incomplete (as undocumented) product, and the failure of DAZ to respond to my initially polite call for help with a positive or helpful response first time. second time - anton's e-mails to me - are probably much better, but to tell a customer he's not supported as the first step and attempt to lay the blame at Curious Labs's door is so incredibly ingenuous that I am seriously considering requesting a refund for everythign from platinum membership and onwards and washing my hands of DAZ. Get a backbone, stand up for yourself and stop trying to spread waht looks like malicious rumour!!! Questor on 10/25/02 11:33 "But to slam someone for not supporting something they can't use is ludicrous." If you can find anywhere wher eI have done this then I apologise from the ehart of my bottom, but that is so far removed from my issues that I'm stunned at how well the DAZ folk and/or supporters seem to be making this the issue. "Seems to me that someone just wanted to rant and start another argument." I refute that utterly and without exception, and indeed take great offense from it as nothing could have been further from my mind. Please respond to this and let me know if, having hopefulyl realised that Poser 5 is indeed irrelevant to my plight, let me know if you still think I was trolling, and I shall have to consider how to proceed (e.g. whether to quite posting on this subject on the basis of being unable to make myself understood). Moonbiter on 10/25/02 12:36 You've a good way with words :) Lapis: Hehe - no worries. My favourite one is where people think I'm on "Daz's side" or "CL's side" or "Renderosity's side". I am, of course, on my side - I want stuff that works. Preferably stuff that works well, and works easily - and that's about the limit of my agenda (with a side-serving of consideration for other users who might fall into the same pitfalls as myself if not warned - but that comes after wanting the best for myself!). now...what else has been written meanwhile? I ought to read Anton's e-mails... Cliff Bowman PS had to split my post in 2, apparently it was too big...

I'm going to ahve to be as curt as possible if this is going to be shorter than hamlet - if I miss you out or am too breif, figure out who you sound most like from people I have directly responded to and clump yourself in with them . Greybro: "Awe come on who3d. That's not quite fair is it?" No, not at all fair. I'll go into depth with Anton but basically I made a query which is irrelevant to the platform (Poser 4 or 5) and got told "We support our products in Poser 4 not Poser 5.". If I'd kept my trap shut and not admitted I was using Poser 5 then I'd presumably have had a different response :( Jackson: "I agree about the lack of instructions, but it ain't just DAZ. I have products from vendors on many sites that have no dox at all; it's up to the buyer to fiddle and play to figure everything out. It's a pain and should be addressed." I can't help wonder why you managed to figure out exactly what my query was, what my "problem" was, and why I was therefore SO outraged with Reba/DAZ so quickly from so little from me when, it seems, others have much more to work on and are still scratching their heads. Cheers mate, you hit the nail on the head. With a hammer. Or something :) Dave-So: A little strong but basically a part of the warning I'm trying to flag up - to both unwitting Poser 5 users who could get stung, however unintentionally, and to DAZ for what I consider to be not, perhaps, the best customer service and marketing response in the world, ever. PheonixRising: "I just sent you a message before finding this. Why is it everythime people get a bit frustrated they march to the topic forums looking for blood? The product comes with a readme." Ahem. Want me to repeat teh readme here? Discard the fact that the web page it lists isn't there any more. Forget that (I assume, from Reba giving me your correct e-mail address) the e-mail address is wrong. Imagine you've JUST obtaine dthe ponytail and expansion - never seen it before. How much info does the readme give you on actually USING the hair set? "And I fail to see how the Platinum Club has anything to do with your point." IIRC that aspect was "I just paid out lots of money - you could too pay loads for the hair set OR loads for the Platinum club then get the hairset cheap - the way I went - and then find that DAZ don't support you because you're not using Poser 4". It's a fair bit of money to have paid, and I was trying to pre-empt a "You only paid $4 total, so push off" response by showing that in fact I'd paid a fair bit more (admittedly in the hope of long-term savings I'm now far from convinced about). "We cannot support P5 because we do not own it or plan to buy it. The program seems to be in a contant state of revision and it is not our place to de-bug it." My problem with the product has nothing to do with Poser 5, zilch, zippo, De Nada, nowt. "You comments about us and P5 will only cause problems between our companies." I beg your pardon? 1. where were you when there was a thread blowing fluffy kisses at DAZ and how wonderful it's after-sales support was, and how poo CL and their support were? It's only unfair when it's DAZ support that's being queried? I find that response to be offensive and somewhat bizzarre. "If you are upset I can understand but speculating this way is not good for anyone." What speculation? "I was away yesterday visiting my elderly aunt. I was exhusted and went to sleep when I got home. If I didn't respond fast enough I am sorry." Nope, it wasn';t your speed of response at all - I'd have been happy to receive your first e-mail when I got home and enter into a dialogue until we got to the point where you "got me" as well as Jackson seems to have. What got me was being told that although I was asking for documentation which simly isn't provided with the product, that my using Poser 5 was in any way an issue. Reba's comment, following on the heels of misinformation in the product's readme file (out of date, I assume) is what pushed my button into wanting to prevent other Poser 5 users from getting into similar scenario unwittingly. "also Just so there is no misunderstanding there is no real difference between P4 and P5 cr2's. P4 products work just fin in P5 with very few exeption from what I have read." Thankyou. This is precisely a large part of my point. My query has nothing to do with Poser 5 whatsoever, although I'm glad that this conversation is coming out now rather than later - the sooner this issues gets clarified or changed, the better for all concerned (I believe). "Please don't mislead people into thinking P4 items won't work if you have P5. This is far from the case. :) Everyone can have a bad day but you don't have to go for the throat." I have not been attempting to do this at all - quite the reverse. It is REBA of DAZ PRODUCTIONS who said that Poser 5 is not supported by DAZ. I wasn't going for the throat at all , and take offense that you have assumed (it seems) rather unpleasant and entirely inaccurate motivations behind my post. Crescent: "I'd suspect Daz meant that if there is an issue specific to P5, then they can't help. P5 ignores the MAT file instructions for the transparency fall-off setting, for example, and there isn't much that Daz can do about it." Absolutely. There was one P5 issue, as you mention, but that was sorted within seconds of loading the hair prop, without recourse to DAZ - and I wouldn't expect them myself of offering such support, not having Poser 5 (and being in a situation where they feel the need to be able to prove that, if need be). But there's a gulf between being unable to solve a P5-based probklem and telling a client that Poser 5 isn't supported - no mitigation. jbrugion: A sad, silly situation but.. yup. Agreed. thos this isn't a P5 related issue, but a product/documentation related issue. Dave-So: I agree - it's users DAZ should be supporting in the main, rather than the application. Though there could (sadly) be issues, in theory, where DAZ are unable to provide support due to being unable to replicate the problem (and trying to sort a problem u can't replicate is hell, pure hell!). PheonixRising on 10/25/02 10:37 Oh thanks, posting an image as poor as that (in a private communication about an issue I was having was one thing, but that abhorrance was never meant to be seen publically). I'm not great at art OR Poser, but now I look even worse. Are you actually STRIVING to annoy me??? "I think you missed the readme." Does everyone want to read this readme? Or maybe I HAVE missed one that wasn't mentioned during install...? by Moonbiter on 10/25/02 10:47 "Let me get this straight. DAZ can't/wont provide support on their products if they are used in a P5 environment?" Apparently - and I can't agree more with the rest of your post. Cliff Bowman

Good grief what a monster THIS has turned into! I've just come back from shopping with wife (sorry - Real Life intrudes). I take great warmth from some of the response sI've read though, and hope to read through the whole lot and respond more fully when my leg has calmed down (acute pain from osteoarthritis not being condusive to reasonable conversations!). Many thanks, Cliff Bowman

The SR" beta forum being about issues with, erm, the SR2 beta 1 I didn't think that requests about a different Poser-related issue was REALLY "on topic" there (which is why I deleted my posts and moved to the more general Poser forum)

wdupre, I saw a reference from CL, in one of their patch contents I believe (SR2?), that stated something about a 4K resolution reduction. Sounded like it would be an automatic thing p5 did. Correct. PRior to SR-2 P5 has "issues" with textures larger than that. SR-2 "fixed" those issues by scaling the textures down internally :(

Lapis:"And what would you say the audience in numbers (a term I refer to as "reach" in the media) is here. 5,6 maybe 10 people" Since that's 5,6, maybe 10 people more than the topic deserves, and it would appear no-one is likely to change their POV regardless of reason, logic, evidence (or lack thereof) I think I'll may it 4,5 or maybe 9 :( Cheers tho, Cliff Bowman

Lapis: "Why is it that others can't see this?" A question I'm sure that has been on the tips of many a tongue for days. Not always with regard to the same POV, naturally! Cliff Bowman PS THIS thread should be in a Poser forum? Like arse should it (and that's ignoring the wishes of the Poser 4 userbase who apparently got sick of us lot and complained)

Lapis: "The bottom line here is this thread was yanked away and placed in a dark closet based on a ruling of which there isn't even a rule for. Damn weird!" I would imagine that since the topic of the original post is Renderosity "censorship" and forum "boss" behaviour that this is potentially a more applicable locale for it than the "Poser" forum which, I suspect, is meant ot be about Poser usage. Is there no rule about the content of a post/thread bein about the name of the forum? Wouldn't there be pandemonium if we all used ALL of the forums at random? Lightwave discussions in the Cinema4D forum, r'osity management discussions in the Poser forum, Poser forums in the toilet? "Hello.....(faint echo fades away...hello) Its dark in here. Rather quiet too." Yeah. Hasn't been a post in this thread for hours:( Cliff Bowman

re: Turtle on 10/24/02 10:43 "Daz is the only place you can buy Poser products and return them if you don't like them. They have the very best customer service on the internet." Generally now I'd agree with that - though my initial (and secondary) reaction to the T-Rex I bought from them were "horrible - what a terribly -fatally - flawed model" and "Well, tha brush-off was neither nice nor expected". yes, they sold me a brokered "work in progress" - a fact I didn't discover until after receiving the model (having paid) and the response to my dissapointment was along the lines of "that's not our product, it's brokered. Go sort it out yourself". It's not ONLY CL that ship unfinished product, or have customer relation "hiccoughs". Since which I've had more joy - no more "broken2 models (though I feel trepidation at the thought of trying to return something to them). Cliff Bowman

stallion:- you have been cheating by paying attention!

I hope not but judging from the responses I've seen (of incredulous "You can't need textures that large" ilk, I wouldn't put any money on it :(