wadams9: Please read the initial post's subjec tline again - the query (?) at teh end was quite intentional and deliberate. If I was unclear, having been told that DAZ products purchased within the last couple of days were not to be supported because I was using Poser 5, despite my reason for requesting support being irrelevant to Poser 5, I was concerned about both myself and others purchasing DAZ products only to be unsupported. Not with problems relating to Poser 5 - but with regard to any aspect of the products. I find it bizzarre that it is apparently distateful to some to warn others of this possibility and attempt to open a discussion as to the pros and cons, as to how much of an effect this would have on combined P5 / DAZ customers, but it seemed appropriate at the time not to let this go unnoticed. I still believe it was the right thing to do, even if the title could have been more informative (and MUCH longer! Guys, that's what the body of the text is for). Cliff Bowman

Cliff,

Considering that a.) your product is being supported by Anton, and b.) that Reba was only politely pointing out that DAZ cannot support every facet that CL chooses to change and has posted that info on their site, not saying -- even in loose paraphrase -- that "one cannot expect any support" if one is a Poser 5 user[!], and c.) that in any case the "incompatibilities" DAZ cannot support would seem to be very few at the present time and not becoming more numerous -- I have to agree with JeffH: this was always just a small customer-service issue on a single product, and this thread's heading and initial message seem way, way out of proportion to me.

[Question mark or not. How much does a question mark soften this: Cliff making a mountain out of a molehill? Not much. I could hardly pretend it was just an idle random question because of the punctuation.]

I don't expect to persuade you on this point. But a referee must call them as he sees them.

Bill

Cliff B. - thank you for starting a discussion that I found quite informative and thought-provoking. I hope you won't quit posting because some readers (IMO) misunderstood what you were saying and where you were coming from. I do agree with others that your title was misleading and inflammatory - but I feel that the actual words you said, both in the original post and in your responses, were reasonably well thought out. DAZ folks - IMO, the Platinum club is a fantastic deal. I use both Poser4 and Poser5, and I am extremely happy with the value I have gotten from Platinum Club products. You seem to have hit on something many will benefit from: a sound business solution that increases volume of sales for some items, hence making it profitable to offer those items at substantial savings. I had reached a point where I could hardly justify buying any more models and textures, and lo and behold you came up with a great way to get me to willingly part with more money than I expected to. You are getting more of my money. I am getting many more top-quality items. Thank you. -- Steve S.

Probably no one to read this meager post this far into such a long thread, but here goes anyway. I believe CL will eventually get P5 running as advertized, and we'll all be better off for having it's advanced capabilities. But if it continues to be more work than fun to utilize DAZ (or any other third party) products in P5 without first having to spend a no-fun amount of time tweaking them (with little to no support from the product's vendor - DAZ or otherwise), then my passion for Poser as a fun hobby will surely die off, and CL, DAZ and any other vendor for Poser-related products will lose another customer as my hard-earned dollars go elsewhere and my sparse free time is devoted to things that bring more joy and less grief. Period. Signing off...

Who3d: I would tend to agree with you on documentation. I sometimes wonder if the sellers believe most of the purchasers are experts. By comparing my work with most, I'd have to agree they ARE...LOL. I think providing a nice PDF file with a sale item would go a long way in making that product stand just a notch above those products that didn't (all other aspects being even, of course). However, WHENEVER I have had a question about an item I have purchased, be it DAZ, Anton, R'City seller, etc., an email to the seller ALWAYS got a darn quick reply. And usually, the message ended up by telling me to contact them again if the answer provided didn't suffice. I specifically remember Anton's reply to my question on his "Diamonds" product. So, I have experienced some frustration with my inability to just pick up an item and use it right away. One kind of frustration I DON'T have is the one that seems the most common around here...Poser 5. (Thank Goodness!) So, to all the P4 users out there: There has been damned good art created with P4 (or where P4 is the "basis") for quite some time now. There will be more damned good art produced with P4 in the future. (not by me, mind you, but by the many many others I have seen). So, not trying to get flamed or anything (yeah, right!...chuckles...), but it seems to me P4 plus DAZ's Platinum Club = an opportunity to produce a wide variety of quality art for a good price with much less frustration.

wadams9 on 10/25/02 16:29 It was never an "idle" question, but a question - the query didn't so much soften the sentence so much as (at least in my intent and eyes) give it a completely different meaning. The difference between "this is a banana" and "is this a banana?". I think we'll have to agree to disagree here :( I have eschewed Anton's only offered forum for support - which would involve me giving him my telephone number which, after his statements & behaviour above, I am unwilling to do. He has not responded to any of my e-mails since I got home aside from to request said number or, finally, agreeing to call it a day. I'll have to try more e-mail addresses to discover how I get a refund. ssshaw on 10/25/02 18:07 "Cliff B. - thank you for starting a discussion that I found quite informative and thought-provoking." If I've provoked a single thought - jsut one - then it was worth it! Thinking is good. "I hope you won't quit posting because some readers (IMO) misunderstood what you were saying and where you were coming from." The only person that concerned me has since expressed better understanding of my viewpoint, so I'm happy in that respect. I intend to quit this thread simply because I intend to make it a non-issue for myself as soon as is reasonably possible, so there should be little or no reason for me to continue on these subjects. ChuckEvans on 10/25/02 19:00 "Who3d: I would tend to agree with you on documentation." Cheers - I think it's an issue which has long been left to lie and shouldn't be. "So, not trying to get flamed or anything (yeah, right!...chuckles...), but it seems to me P4 plus DAZ's Platinum Club = an opportunity to produce a wide variety of quality art for a good price with much less frustration." Absolutely! The Platinum offer is a great deal (or I wouldn't have joined up in the first place) - and I wouldn't have stuck with Poser 4 for so long if it didn't have huge potential. I just don't feel that DAZ products in any shape or form - at least with the current policies - are a "safe" bet for me if they're going to "support our products in Poser 4 not Poser 5" when I'm using Poser 5. This whole subject is now, I hope, closed. Come tomorrow I'll try and figure out what files need removing from where (no uninstall feature!) and who next to contact for a refund - because I don't need the extra hassle of situations like this one (as good as thought-provoking conversation is, I'd prefer it to be about art not mundane life). Cheers, Cliff Bowman

Cliff, I believe that Anton was gone so that is why you didn't hear from him again. Please send an email to reba@daz3d.com and she can take care of your refund. I am sorry that your experience with us was not a good one. But as always, we stand behind the quality of our products. Sincerely, Dan Farr

I have always been happy with Daz's products.Great job,Dan.

The second version of the patch is out and the transparency falloff default has been changed. MATs will work right off now.

Spit..I love your name. If you ever get tired of it can I have it? Its just the kind of "in your face" name that shouts a kind of cyber renegade presence. Very punk and very cool. Have you loaded the patch yet and if so, have you found major or only minor differences?

Heh No...haven't gotten it yet. Slow modem so I wait a couple days 'til the pipes clear a bit.

I guess I'd just as soon know that there isn't a problem with it. Seems good though so far from the people I've chatted with. They really should consider a mirror or two during each release.

danfarr on 10/25/02 22:08 "Cliff, I believe that Anton was gone so that is why you didn't hear from him again." No... Anton repeatedly asked for my telephone number as apparently the only way he was willing to offer me support (I draw this conclusion in part from the 2 e-mail responses in which he refuses to answer any comment of mine except to request my telephone number). After what I've seen in this thread I am not happy to hand out my number. I can't stand Shakespeare personally but he's my usual example when people say communicaiton cannot be accomplished via e-mail - it may be harder than face-to-face, but there's not much tha tCANNOT be accomplished via a combination of text, pictures, and (if need be) animations. "Please send an email to reba@daz3d.com and she can take care of your refund." I'll e-mail Reba directly. "I am sorry that your experience with us was not a good one." Not so much "not a good one" as "a throughoughly bizzarre one". "But as always, we stand behind the quality of our products. Sincerely, Dan Farr" Well, that's pretty much the point of this thread wasn't it? The quality of the product (effectively undocumented - very poor for $90 worth of Poser hair, especially if compared to the - less flexible - freebies around) was poor but would have been shrugged with a "DAZ, grrr, why do these people so often sit in their ivory towers and sniff haughtily at us?" but the suggestion that I shouldn't or wouldn't get support because I used Poser 5 was the real slap in the face that smarted so much. Follow that with both Anton's impatient "Where are you? You must have done this or that wrong, don't insinuate my stuff won't work with Poser 52 and your "If you have a problem with our product it must be Poser 5 and CL's problem, let me know if CL are unable or unwilling to fix your problem" (both MY interpretation, stated quickly for brevity) and... how on EARTH can I possibly have faith in DAZ? Spit on 10/26/02 02:53 "The second version of the patch is out and the transparency falloff default has been changed. MATs will work right off now." LOL! ANOTHER huge download no doubt. I'd better rush off and get it! Cheers, Cliff Bowman

Even hates Shakespeare.

by wadams9 on 10/26/02 04:58 LOL! It's nice to see, occasionally, members' sense of humour :)

"I know you all, and will awhile uphold
The unyok'd humor of your idleness"
-- Henry IV, Part I, Act 1, Scene 2

Chuck said 'I would tend to agree with you on documentation. I sometimes wonder if the sellers believe most of the purchasers are experts' Interesting point, that. I'm working on a new pack which is fairly complicated, and I must have spent at least 2 weeks on the help file alone! It's pretty huge and covers every imaginable aspect of using the product, from raw beginner to poser wizard. At one point, I thought 'Maybe I'm going over the top with this Help File?' But I firmly believe that one of the most dismal things about about most store products is the appalling lack of useful information. Most readmes tell you how to install the files (if even that!), then leave the user to sink or swim. I know from my own experiences that I'd occasionally like to strangle some store sellers with my bare hands. And I've been using poser for 4 years! So, I'm glad some people want huge help files. mac

Cliff, Is there something that I missed. I apologized to you that your experience with us was not a good one (or bizarre as you have labelled it). We have offered to give you the level of support that we are capable of giving without us having Poser 5. We offered you a full refund on your purchase. Is there something else that you would like for us to do to help make this situation better? Sincerely, Dan Farr PS. You don't have to give us your phone number in order to get support (You can call us on our toll free number if you would like 800-267-5170). It was only suggested as a means to help to improve the communication.

Maclean: Sounds like you have a nice plan. Another thought struck me, too. One could forego a lot of "included" documentation and just provide a URL to your website with some nice HTML on it for each sale item. That way, if a change was needed, one wouldn't have to get in touch with all the customers...the site would reflect the latest update should anybody go looking. That is, of course, if one HAD a site and could take the bandwidth...grin.

Cliff B. - I think this whole thread demonstrates the challenges of e-mail communication. By this point, I imagine both you and Anton feel hurt and misunderstood. Maybe Reba didn't mean quite what you heard. Maybe Dan Farr is simply frustrated with the Poser5 legal situation. Maybe Anton just wants to make great models. Maybe you just want to alert your fellow artists to something that alarmed you - without getting jumped all over. Maybe we all need to "assume the best" instead of "reacting to the worst". -- Steve S.

'One could forego a lot of "included" documentation and just provide a URL to your website with some nice HTML on it for each sale item' Chuck, You must be psychic! I had already planned to do that. Not for the Help File itself, but to have a web page that illustrates the huge number of possible combinations available from the figures in my pack. Since they are all multi-part figures with added morphs, the idea was to show the prospective purchaser what they would be getting before they buy it. And since I can't litter the site I broker through (DAZ) with hundreds of jpegs, I had thought on simply putting a link up so people could see for themselves. I'm a firm believer in letting people know what they're paying for. If it's good value, they'll buy it. Simple as that. mac

Maclean: Sounds like you have a good plan! Maybe start a fad...grin.

I've been out again - it's been months since my son's grandmother & great gan saw him so we made a day of it (how does one smile and grimace at the same time?). maclean on 10/26/02 10:55 "I'm working on a new pack which is fairly complicated, and I must have spent at least 2 weeks on the help file alone! It's pretty huge and covers every imaginable aspect of using the product, from raw beginner to poser wizard." I want to have your children :) danfarr on 10/26/02 11:47 HUGELY better post from my POV. In an effort to attain the same improvement in the interpretation and clarity of my own post I may skip some points, implications or inferences. [snippage] "Is there something else that you would like for us to do to help make this situation better?" ALmost certainly. Without resorting to my usual wordage (hey, there's posts n posts here) I never wanted to become an ex-DAZ customer or the first person to have DAZ relations issues after the love-in of what seems a few scant days ago. All I initially wanted was Poser-version-number irrelevant support (I was actually asking for decent documentation for some of the products I'd bought - $90 worth of hair add-on). That's it. If you want to discuss further in e-mail and go into the nitty-gritties of how I feel now and why, I'm happy to do so without bothering the fine folk of this forum. Since then my "wish list" has grown - I've been unable to interpret, until your post to which this replies, any offer of support without giving out my telephone nubmer to Anton. I'd really LIKE to see some assurance, perhaps in the FAQ, that users WON'T be brushed off (as I felt had been done to me) for using Poser 5, with the "catch" that obviously you cannot test or support behaviour or features specific to Poser 5. I seriously was concerned after Reba's psot tha tPoser 5 users were basically being treated very much as second-class citizens. [snip] "PS. You don't have to give us your phone number in order to get support (You can call us on our toll free number if you would like 800-267-5170). It was only suggested as a means to help to improve the communication." I'd have accepted, grudgingly and annoyed, the response "I'm sorry, I/we have checked with Anton and there simply is no documentation for the use of the $90 worth of hair". It's somethign that, incorrectly I feel, we Poser users are quite accustomed to. If we can pursue some conversation regarding support of the product I'd be happy to, but after seeing the responses (to be hoenst yours almsot as much as Anton's) I feared that constructive and friendly assistance was not the objective in being able to call me. Not a pleasant thought, either for the thinker or the thinkee :( ChuckEvans on 10/26/02 11:57 "One could forego a lot of "included" documentation and just provide a URL to your website with some nice HTML" [snip] "That is, of course, if one HAD a site and could take the bandwidth...grin." My own thoughts had been to host an HTML documentation for a model and provide that as a zipped collection as an extra download. Bandwidth would potentially be an option, but for anyone with a range of products (rather than just 1 or 2 items of clothing) the potential for pre-sales examination of how a product works might be beneficial - perhaps even raise sales. A very general thought, to be sure :) ssshaw on 10/26/02 12:11 "Maybe we all need to "assume the best" instead of "reacting to the worst"." An excellent post that, were it not for the other text in this missive, would bear repetition in it's entirety. IMHO (and yes, including the inherant criticism of myself). AFAICS a great deal of the heat occurred while I was actually out and unable to respond - and my absense seemed to turn the heat up in a way that certainly got my goat, however much I attempted to counteract that. I feel your post is a prime example of how one CAN communicate quite effectively, even if all too often we don't. Had I been able to receive Anton's first, seemingly friendlyish communication (or had Reba's been delayed by a day so Anton beat Reba to me) then I rather think this whole thing would have taken a different route. Celery ;) ---------- I conceed tha tAnton may be feeling as wounded as I, but cannot in al conscience shake the feeling that handing out my personal contact info at this point in time would open me up to potential more unhappy feelings rather than being directly constructive. My e-mail door is, however, as open as ever :) Cliff Bowman (when will this thread do the decent thing and point it's ikkle legs skyward??)

My guess is that the thread will end when you take your problems directly to the source, and leave the dirty laundry in the laundry room. That is what the phone is for - use it. They have extended the offer for you to contact them. Please do it, and put this thing to a rest. At this point all you are doing is coming off as a whiny, petulant child. - Ray

who3d's response to my post (which had nothing whatsoever to do with him) 'I want to have your children :)' who3d, I've come to the conclusion that you are not a well person. Perhaps you should see a doctor about this problem you seem to have. mac PS Don't bother replying. I won't be reading it.