Carodan,

your right, and I completely agree with you.

While I guess I fit into that "Poser Power User" scheme that Pengo describes, I still think that using Poser just for fun is a valid reason.

I think the REAL reason why most "professionals" hate Poser is....

....they really hate having the same hobby as their mom.

;-)

I mean, if you were a l33t m4x u$3r, would you want to discuss Vicky´s shoulder problems with your mom ?
Or help her with the Poser lights ?

All of the sudden the cool job at Pixxar you´re dreaming of doesn´t seem to be quite as cool, does it ?

First you pay dearly for a membership to that exclusive CGI-Artist club, (Or at least show your h4ck3r skills by installing that warezd copy of Max), only to find that all the riffraff has sneaked in through the kitchen door ?

And instead of working hard and improving their SKILLZ, those pesky Poser users  just party all day long and have a generally good time ?

OF COURSE THEY ARE PSSD ! LOLZ !

So what ?

Sticks and stones I say...

I enjoy my poser and my mostly lowbrow "art", and don´t mind all the black velvet elvis...errr, Poser art pictures in the galleries.
If people have fun doing them, let them I say.
If people can´t be bothered to actually POSE a character, I think it´s sad, but it´s not my money they spend for pose sets.

But I also know that most people at CG-Talk DO have excellent skills and I wouldn´t dare posting anything I´ve made unless I´m sure it´d be up to the expected standard.

Stahlratte

I feel ashamed and belittled.

I do EVERYTHING that Penguinisto has listed.

Guess I must not be a good POSER Consu...err, Artist, then,  :-(

Heck, I even just started a thread suggesting that Vicky might be a tiny little bit ...gasp...unrealistic.
(Which promptly made some folks go ballistic. LOL)

Oh my.

And I not only use WINGS, I ALSO have Silo and just started using Z-Brush.

And there is that character I´m tweaking and modifying for almost a year now, you know.
Several dozend magnets and even custom made expression morphs, just to get it right.

i mean, it really started quite innocently with a morph here and a morph there. And all of a sudden I wanted to do MY OWN STUFF.

Dam´ Dr Geep and his tutorials.  :-(

Looks I better start saving my pennies to buy MAX and become ONE OF TEH BIG BOYS.

I´m really REALLY sorry to dissapoint you all, my fellow Poser comrades.

Please think kindly of me when you buy your next premade pose pack.

;-)

Stahlratte

Well, well, well, look who had to show up again for some new snide remarks.

Hmm, when I was in school we were taught not to  talk back to the teacher and to ask politely when we didn´t understant something.
And if we were rude and disrupted the lesson we were simply thrown out of the room or worse.

:-)

Und Tschüß...

Stahlratte

Looks like my sarcasm was unfortunately wasted, Tguyus.

As I already said, I won´t let one of my threads being hijacked by self important trolls.

Absolutely noone is interrested in your leg fetish, and your other remarks unfortunately show that despite the six years you are already here you don´t have the slightest clue about mesh geometry and rigging.

Rooting for "more polygons" because you are unable to edit a joint or learn to use a magnet while V3 already IS way heavier than necesary is laughable.
Yeah, right, I´m sure the modellers at DAZ will be more than happy to hear your advice.

"Umm, yeah, well, how about more polys in the legs, so I can make them, Umm, longer you know, yeah. That would be really, like, cool, you know."

ROTFLMAO.

You DO know that V3 has a default "stretch legs" morph, do you ?

For the record, I run a lot of my characters through Polytrans to bring their mesh density down to more reasonable sizes, or use low rez heads combined with high rez bodys.
That way my characters are between 20 000 and 40 000 polys instead of V3´s bloated 72 000 or MIKI´s ridiculous 115 000.

Fortunately DAZ finally had an epiphanie so V4 will obviously be availabe in HiRez, LoRez, and Super LoRez versions.
(To give credit where credit is due, V2LO, V3RR and M3RR are some of the best meshes around, even despite their flawed proportions)

Sorry folks, I posted two pages ago " .... you haven´t seen me rude yet."

NOW YOU HAVE, because STEELRAT is PISSED AND HE GIVES A  RATS ASS !

When I work for hours in Poser to share knowledge with others,  noone will waltz in my thread and throw his weight around just to add to his post count.

The scientifical facts given by me in this thread are not up for debate, and noone is interrested in anyone elses sexual preferences.

Oh, and Slowhand, your post shows me that you haven´t the slightest clue what this thread was about.
Not everybody here constantly has $$$ blinking in from of his head.

I´m fully aware that DAZ, like any good "buisiness" is just catering to the lowest common denominator.

Having said that, I may or may not start a new thread where I repost my work that hopefully will be less troll infested.

Have a nice day everybody.

Stahlratte

Personal preference" and "Reality" are two very different things.

If you take an average woman and have her body professionally photographed and use these photographs to create an exact cgi-model of her, then, and only then you have an accurate model of an average woman.

If you distort her shape to make her more desireable, your model will be something else.

It may be usefull in the advertising biz or for fantasy renders, but it will be useless to depict reality.

Reality isn´t a matter of preferences. It is not optional.
It simply "is".

@**Tguyus : I kindly ask you to troll another thread with your unfounded drivel.

The charts and information offered here are based on centuries of scientific research.
I will not waste my time  trying to teach the willfully ignorant.
Nor will I give you a platform for self-expression.

I started this thread to educate.

If you feel the need to make DAZ aware of something, feel free to start your own thread.

If the trolling and underhanded personal attacks don´t stop, I´ll alert a mod and complain about you.

Thanks.

Stahlratte

**

Attached Link: Porthos T'Pol morph

(See attached link)

Use DAZ´ free "V3 to V2" figure if you want to use V2 textures and clothing with this morph.

Stahlratte

Just foolin´ around with the pictures from mylemonblue´s link:

Just a WIP made with the default morphs + scaling.
To get closer, I´d need magnets.

But I think even now it doesn´t look much like V3 any more, does it ?

Stahlratte

Attached Link: Judy and NeJa softer shin magnets

@JOELGLAINE, pjz99, Khai, dalmatica and  mylemonblue : Many thanks for the support !

:-)

Stahlratte

Sigh.

As the saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.  ;-P

And to be honest, stating the obvious over and over again gets old fast.

1. The 8:1 head ratio is the most universally accepted, that´s why I choose Loomis charts. 7:1 or 7 1/2 :1 is more "average" but
   obviously people are already scared by his "ideal" 8:1 ratio.
    

2. The various head to body ratios are a fact regardless of body type. Any Doctor can tell you that there are limits for head size.

3. The average height of an caucasian US or European woman is around 5' 5".  People way above or below that or not the average.

4. You can render anything you like. But when you make a street scene where all people are beyond 6' 0", don´t claim it to be "real" or "normal".

5. Even if advertisers want to make you believe otherwise, tall people are not "better" than average sized people.
   So don´t buy stuff just because it was advertised by a giantess.

6. Take Vicky as what she is: A pure fantasy.
   Enjoy playing with her.
   But again, all the lightning and shading tricks in the world won´t make her "real" unless you at least scale her friggin´ head up.

7. I´m all for art. But the modelling process is pure mechanic.
   Art has no place in it, not as long as you want to create a realistic 3d representation of a real world item, and that includes the human body.
   The art part happens when you bring the mesh to live with expressions and build a scene to tell a story.
   Before that, it´s all craft.

And finally, let me show you Mrs and Mr Average:

Thanks for looking and I hope some found this thread helpfull.

Stahlratte

"na, dann viel spaß noch beim hirnwix'n ;)"

Solange ich kleine profilsüchtige Trolls aus meinen Threads heraushalten kann, hab ich allen Spaß den Du dir vorstellen kannst. Keine Bange.

Ach ja, falls Du noch was zu sagen hast, dann Bitte per Sitemail.

Dieser thread ist für Leute gedacht die etwas über Poser lernen wollen, nicht um Deine persönlichen Probleme abzuarbeiten.

Stahlratte

"der ton macht die musik, stimmt's? lass' gut sein, alter, hast eh recht..."

Genau. Und wenn Leute (Und damit mein´ ich jetzt nicht Dich) in einen Thread hineinwalzen und sagen das die wissenschaftliche Arbeit von Jahrhunderten praktisch Blödsinn ist, dann handel ich halt ganz nach dem guten alten Sprichwort:
Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es hinaus.

Tut mir Leid, aber mit Ignoranten hab ich keine Geduld. Ich teile mein Wissen gern mit anderen, aber wer Dumm bleiben will, der darf es gerne bleiben.

Den herablassenden Ton allerdings kannst Du Dir gerne sparen.
Für die Probleme mit Deinem Vati kann ich nix.
Falls dir solche Übertragungen öfter passieren, empfehle ich mal einen geigneten Therapeuten aufzusuchen.

:-)

Stahlratte

So for those who think "Ideal" is too IDEAL, here is a bit of "real" REALITY:

EuroMiki scaled to match a real live ADULT FULLY GROWN UP
7 head tall woman:

The ONLY things I did was to shorten her legs and slighly shorten her forearms.
Everthing else lined up perfectly.
No other differences between her and the 7 1/2 heads tall original version.

Now let´s say she´s 5' 5" tall, the EXACT US average for caucasian woman, and compare her with V3:

With both having the same head size, like in real live, like predicted, Vicky is now even taller. (6'11" ).

And you now can also easily see why all the Poser children look so horribly wrong to me.
Designed to match Vicky 3, they look way too old compared to a REALISTIC grown up woman.

Stahlratte

"He knew exactly what the media of his times demanded from an artist and he followed those rules just like we all do. Thats called being a professional. That you actually chose his work as your model for 'reality' is really quite amusing..."

Yes, I´m fully aware that Loomis "ideal" human is..."IDEAL".

Why ? Because it says so on top of the page.  :-)

But people DO grow taller in the US and Europe on average, so his "Ideal" of the 1940´s has become more the "average" of 2006.

Personally I prefer a 7 1/2 head ration for men and 7 heads for woman, but as people around here are so used to V3´s 9 head ratio, I rather didn´t want them to be scared away.

You already admitted that an 8-heads tall fully grown adult woman looks like a "teenager" to you, so what must a "really" realistic 7-heads tall average woman look like to you ?

Stahlratte

"...are a very typical example of an engineer posing as artist i see occasionally."

I take that as a BIG compliment, because I´m proud to be a skilled craftsmen, not an "artist".  :-)

"The same sort of people who draw up facial feature 'maps' or spend years collecting stat data on beautiful people trying to reduce beauty to mathematical formulas. Sorry mate it doesn't work that way..."

Actually, it does:

http://www.beautyanalysis.com/index2_mba.htm

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the "mystery of beauty" has been nailed down, too.

I´m pretty much fed up with the "artistic" types who inflict their "vision" on others.
Yes, my dream would be a model 100% based on the laser scan of a human being, with no "artistic" modifications whatsoever.
Not necessarily "ideal", but just a good AVERAGE.
Nothing added to make it look more "pleasantly"
Just 100% raw reality.

As a modeller I treat the human shape absolutely no different than any other shape.
As a scale modeler  who builds prototypes, correct shape and dimensions are crucial.
If my model is a tiny fraction of an inch "off", it isn´t a realistic representation of reality.

IWhile humans come in different shapes, I again want to get the dimensions as accurately as possible.

What I want is an accurate representation of a human being, not someones elses "artistic vision" of it.
I don´t care that the masses have been brainwashed into accepting "artistic" exaggerations as normal.

Look at an old car leaflet of the 60´s.
The cars are shown completely distorted to make them look bigger, better, roomier and sexier.

You might prefer a 3d model of that car the way  it looks in that  exaggerated drawing, but I want to have a model that was made after the real cars blueprints, so that it is an accurate representaton of the real thing.

The artistic part comes AFTER the modelling is done.
By creating expressions and poses.
By creating an environment and using certain lights.
By telling a story.

THATS when the "art" starts.

Again, too many modellers think of themself as "artists" when they really should improve their "craft".

Cutting corners is not "aristic".

Stahlratte

"No one really answers to that."

Sorry, but science has the human shape pretty much nailed down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

We now can exactly say what is "average" and what is not.

It has nothing to do with art.

It´s a purely mechanical thing.

If using default V3 makes you "feel" better, more power to you.

Just be aware the she is NOT build like 95% of the people you meet in real life.

Stahlratte