Another important point I feel might have been overlooked in dismissing us as childish/whatever in this case, is that the Merchants' Forum is the only way to know about many policies that affect us prior to their implementation. Two good examples would be the warehouse. Had this policy been enacted [i]prior[/i] to the warehouse implementation, we would have over 150 products removed from the store with those Merchants given to no recourse except to sit idly by, watching as their livelihood slipped off. Had it been enacted prior to the inactive merchants debate, this site would likely have been saddled with an unworkable, short-sighted policy which would have disenfranchised over a hundred merchants into walking out permanently. You see, it was those "competitors" in that instance who worked with Clint and Jeff to find a positive direction which has greatly enhanced some aspects of the site look, the marketplace, and the forums, without disenfranchising others. You see, Scott, as Merchants, Mehndi, LadySilverMage, Ironbear, et. al. have a vested interest in seeing this marketplace succeed, regardless of the roles they play elsewhere in cyberspace. To imply that they are using access to the Merchant's Forum to somehow gain market advantages on this site is not only ridiculous, but unfounded and malicious. So pardon me if I'm not willing to sit back and let the 600 lb. Gorilla pretend to be a victim. Paul

G'Nite!

For the record, I've only apologized to Liz and Russ once, and it was over something that was basically out of my control ( someone made an editorial decision that affected many people I'd attempted to mention in an article ). Also for the record, I'm not sorry about my earlier bombardments of PoserPros, as they were completely right at that time. If PoserPros signed with DAZ today, I'd be right back in trenches with my flamethrower. But they haven't been making shitty site policy lately (or at least I haven't seen it if they have), so I go there when I want to speak my mind. I come here when I have specific reason. Paul

Btw, Spike, you mentioned in another thread that Admin are members, too. I don't really want to e-mail tammy about Jeff's personal attacks ( calling members morons ) because I think that would be just a shitty kinda thing to do to a guy I generally like well enough. But I would appreciate it if, in the few hours I do spend here in a week, I didn't have to deal with ANY personal attacks, whether they are being made by Joe Schmoe or the Pope. Ta-ta for tonite. Cheers! Paul

"Perhaps there should be a new forum created, called "Shit". Then you could move all the on-topic posts there. " Now you've done it Legume! You're going to get this thread moved to Community Ideas! :P

Pete, I don't know what happened with you, but I haven't had any problems over there for some time. And as for "picking on you" I sincerely pray for your immortal soul that you didn't just imply I'm part of a "PoserPros" gang... I think that with any amount of research whatsoever you'll find that on a given day I'm as likely to tear into Mehndi and Russ as I am to tear into DAZ, Rosity, or anyone else who mistreats their membership. Now, Pete, we've had discussions about you losing your temper, and they generally build until you blow, and then within a week you're apologizing. So, once again I'm asking you to go drink a beer, smoke some pot, whatever, so that you get your perspective back, man. There's no need for you to get yourself banned over someone making a snide remark, even if you do take it to heart. Beyond that, if you really want to fight this out, go over to PoserPros, you won't get banned there. :P (Just teasing, Pete... We can agree to disagree on this one) Paul

"and have managed to read probably 50 - 60% of everything written, " This statement only applies to the forums I surf regularly, Poser, OT, FN&TC, Copyright, Merchants, etc. Paul

"No, actually the site owners are policing the Admins." Yep. And when site owners get 2500 e-mails from angry members they get grumpy. Keep pushing buttons and it will happen. I've seen many site admins that didn't know enough to recognize a bit of friendly advice when it came their way. I truly hope you're not one of them because we've always gotten along in the past. While we are on the subject ( there was a subject here, Jeff ), would you please explain to me, why some posts which have naught to do with Poser, or, even with art, manage to remain in the Poser forum, while others, which actually are relevant to Poser, get shuffled off. I'm not going to imply any dark conspiracy bullshit, cause I think that tends to kill credibility and belittle the problem, but there needs to be some consensus. And please don't belittle my intelligence with the "we only have so many hours in a day and can't check everything, blah blah blah," because I've been averaging about 10 hours a week at Rosity for the last month, and have managed to read probably 50 - 60% of everything written, at least to a level of comprehension that could easily tell me "on-topic" or "off-topic". Paul

"No, Paul's chain of events are not correct, but then it's a private matter anyway and cannot be discussed in public." Well, for a private matter, it's awefully visible, Jeff. Kind of like argueing in the mall. If I see a security guard kick someone in the face, then they get tossed out on the street, I'm not going to drop it just because the security guard tells me "it's a private matter." Improper enforcement of the TOS is not a private matter, mein freund, it is a public matter that effects us as consumers and as merchants. What you don't seem to realize, Jeff, is that while the site administration is a policing force for the forums, the membership is ultimately a policing force for the administration as well. Without us you don't work, so having the attitude that you don't need to give us an explanation about a public concern is a bit short-sighted. I would sincerely ask you to reconsider and take a more level-headed and open approach, instead of making yet another public relations gaffe that will sponsor more negativity and draw more onlookers. Paul

The problem wasn't you Cyber... Although, you just apologized, which means you might get banned now, too ( lord I hope not - I always look forward to your posts ). The problem is in the decision of an administrator to step in on one side of the argument, then to add insult to injury by repeatedly shuffling away the member's attempts to set things right, culminating in that member's timely disappearance from the boards, with only the message "this member has been sent to the penalty box for asking a question about site policy". ( I'm paraphrasing based on the overriding administrative silence ).

"Power is useless if you don't know how to use it properly, just like a dirty second hand condom. " Dirty second-hand condoms are useless? Nah, you can always inflate them as party favors... Or am I just going to the right parties? Paul

"If disagreeing with a mod is enough to be considered a "disruption" then you might as well ban everyone here. This is about the most ridiculous banning since Mehndi's." I disagree. Mehndi's banning was much more ridiculous, though not quite so much as PJF's. "He wasn't banned for that." He was banned for continually posting a message in the wrong forum, right, Jeff? Pardon me asking but it is ever so difficult to keep track of who is being banned for what reason... Let me make sure I got the chain of events correct on this: sbertram and someone else have a bit of a scuffle, and exchange a personal attack. sbertram gets his post deleted, but the other attack stays, and Jeff tells sbertram to drop the attacks. sbertram apologizes to everyone for getting so upset. Jeff moves that post off to nowhere land. sbertram asks why his post was moved. Jeff gives him a warning ( asking questions must be a TOS violation I s'pose ) sbertram asks, again why the post was moved. Jeff moves the new post. sbertram asks Jeff why the posts are being moved. Jeff moves the post. sbertram says, "Wtf is going on? Why won't you tell me why you're moving my posts. Spike moves the post. Jeff bans sbertram. Did I get the events in the right order? Did I miss anything? Paul

"Well thank's Paul, As a matter of fact, I do have full power in all the forums, All Admin do. If you look at the team contact page, note the names listed under admin, we all have the same power." I was referring to the fact that you generally aren't going to override another admin's decision Spike. AFAIK, once Jeff decided the course of action on this, you're generally going to defer to his judgement. I know exactly what you have the ability to do, and not to do, Spike, and was trying to let Lapis know that if it was going to get resolved, you weren't one of the "bad guys." Coincidentally, I don't really care if this one post got moved to the FN&TC forum, but if you're going to pull the switcheroo with one off topic post, then you should damn well be doing it to all of them. There's a post in the Poser forum from a while back where Steve Cooper asked people to send his son stamps. That doesn't have shit to do with Poser, but it stayed. I'm not saying I dislike Steve ( or his son Cooper ), quite the opposite. I do dislike the bias involved in enforcement of the TOS, even though I feel I have, at times, benefitted from it. If Renderosity is a business, then its employees need to start being business-like, which implies unbiased unilateral enforcement of policy. Insofar as your special bias, Spike, I've seen you come down fairly more often than not, and I'm not going to dredge up months of forum history, as that wouldn't be terribly constructive. I will say that after one particular event, I will trust you to review this decision moreso than I would trust any other member of the administrative team. Paul

Lapis, I wouldn't wail to hard on Spike. He's only doing what he was requested to do, which implies that the decision was made, and Spike's got to enforce it, regardless of whether he likes it or not. He doesn't have any moderating powers in the Poser forum. That's not to say that Spike hasn't practiced his own charming brand of biased enforcement of the rules, only that this once, he's not to blame. Paul

No worries, Spike... maybe Jeff should get this one moved to: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=931005&Reply=931045 It's bothering me because it's so unrelated to Poser... Spike, you realize this whole thing would have quietly resolved some time ago had he just left the post? Everyone had had their say, and it wasn't too much "clutter." No moreso than the "Victoria Daz" interview or the post to tell us who won the world series, neither of which assist me in any way to make better Poser imagery. I'm sure Jeff's taken off for a bit, though, so do please pass these thoughts on to whoever up there decides what gets cut and what stays. It's a bit ludicrous, and generally makes you guys look far worse than it makes the "offender." I may not be a PR champion, but I figure if you folks are going to be biased, you should at least practice for a while at some basic customer service first. Paul