And since I see no way for anyone to delete or edit an existing post here, i think it highly unlikely that yulia went back and doctored out some offending statement

Ah, i only just now saw where a post can be deleted. But i still don't see a way to edit...and i also saw nothing to indicate that yulia thought DarkElegance was bella.

Wren I was not saying the mods here judge the work befor it is posted.

My apologies. Your inital comment made it sound like the Mod duties here are the same as the editors duties at Epilogue and i didn't think that they were. I just wondered if i was missing something. Apparently i am not.

**I was saying that our mods here work very very hard as well and give a heck of alot to this site.
they get backed up too with people either complaining of a piece in the gallery or with other situations.
they get bombarded..they get harrassed..they get dragged into debates...they work vvvvvverrrrrrryy hard here too.
BUT..they will take the time at the drop of a hat to talk to a member..to write..to give advice..to near anything.
To say that it is not fair to the epilogue mods or editors to listen and answer a members question is not logical. as Renderosity proves that those with overly full plates and huge work loads still can take a moment to help
**
I thought i made it quite clear that the Epilogue editors DO jump in and help people and give comments. They do it all the time on the forums as well as answer e-mails and private messages from members in addition to handling complaints, requests while at the same time dealing with all the things you just described for Renderosity moderators. I guess my question to you now is: is commenting on the forums and answereing e-mails and PM's not enough? You seem to suggest that in Epilogues case it isn't but that in Renderosity's case it is. Or perhaps you simply don't realize just how much the Epilogue editors really do interact with the comminity there and that they are no less approachable than the Mods here at Renderosity? Either way, i would like to emphasize once again that the editors at Epilogue are more than free with deatiled critiques when asked for them. Yulia's post should more than prove that point.

And speaking of yulia's post and your rather, um, extreme reply. I think it only fair to point out that i didn't see (indeed i don't think anybody saw) anything from yulia to imply that you were bella. And since I see no way for anyone to delete or edit an existing post here, i think it highly unlikely that yulia went back and doctored out some offending statement. So i don't know what it was you did see, but since you were the only one who saw it, to everyone else you look like a raving lunatic. I think perhaps it might be a good idea to re-evaluate your position on the matter and entertain the idea that you may have misread something and jumped to a wrong conclusion.

"I do not know if the mods here are payed or not but...it just takes so little to give a clear reason"
I am not aware that work submitted to Renderosity is juried. The pieces i have here were all uploaded instantly and as far as i could tell, did not go through any sort of manual approval process. In fact, the only other gallery which i know of that DOES have an manual approval process besides Epliogue, is Elfwood, and their ticket queue is constantly backed up by at least 10-15 days (somtimes more). I've never had an Epilogue submission take more than 2 days and that was on a rejection.

And the thing is, Epilogue DOES give a rejection reason AND they've recently added an FAQ that covers in detail what each rejection reason means. Plus there is still the WIP forum where members and editors alike give feedback and input on posted works. How much more should the editors be expected to do? And why should they be expected to do it when a little careful observation and some small effort on the part of the artist to post the image for feedback makes most rejection reasons fairly apparent?

I usually have a good idea before i upload a piece if it has potential problems with it. Usually it's one of those "something's not quite right but i can't put my finger on it" sort of feelings. So when such a piece comes back with an "antomy needs work" tag or an "image looks flat or pasted" tag, that's pretty much all i need to set me in the right direction. And if it's not, i post in the WIP. I don't see that it is the editors job to be my art teacher and tell me the specifics of what i did wrong. Sure it would be nice, but that's not really what they are there for. And despite that fact that their only true requirement as editors is to accept or reject each piece submitted, the editors still take time out to post to the threads of people who need help getting a piece up to par.

Going back to that Rockette example i gave earlier: the pannel of judges that decides who will or won't become a Rockette, does NOT give critques. For that matter, most juried art shows and galleries do NOT give feedback. A simple yes or no is all you get. The way i see it, the Epilogue editors already go way above and beyond their designated duties. To expect them to do more is, in my opinion, asking too much.

"wouldnt take much more effort to add a bit to the words. it could still be a set phrase that is given out so that each editor doesnt have to write a paragraph..but it would at least point an artist in the right direction. " They actually talked about adding an extra comment box for editors to to give additional direction but the websites coding didn't allow for it and it was determined that it might be asking too much of the editors. they already give up a great deal of their personal time for us as it is, it's seemed unfair to demand more from them. Besides, there are plenty of helpful artist on the WIP forum that can and do see the same problems the editors did and who help the artists make corrections. In the unusual circumstance that no one can pin down the problem, and editor almost always steps in and clarifies the areas that need work.

"Wren I -do- have a gallery there. I have taken part in it. and the work that was accepted from me was..GUH the only reason I keep my gallery there now is to link to renderosity.
-I- haven written to the editors but when you submit a piece and it is rejected in record time I am talking about under five minutes and it is rejected sorry but that doesnt seem on the up and up to me. It is not sour grapes as that thread says. it is just plain and simple someone that has given up even trying to expand their gallery over there."

My apologies, i did not mean to imply that you personally made these accusations or that you were one of these people who refuse to become a part of the community. I thought i had made it clear after my initial response to you that the rest of my statements were referring to the post at Epilogue. I'm sorry i didn't make that clearer.

I will say though that just because you can't seem to get your recent work into to Epilogue doesnt mean you or anyone else for that matter are being discriminated against. I looked over your Renderosity gallery (not every piece but a random sample of your most recently posted work) and can see some rather obvious flaws that would prevent some them from being accepted at Epilogue. That's not to say any of them are "bad", they are in fact quite lovely, but most of the ones i saw that met the fantasy/sci-fi genre requirement had issues that could be resolved to make them much stronger pieces.

In particular there seem to be some lighting and composition weaknesses that distract and detract from the overall images. Epilogue editors are trained to see those shortcomings and when they do, those pieces get rejected.

Now granted, i don't know the specific rejection reasons given on the individual pieces you've had rejected, but i would venture to guess that you've gotten the "not epilogue quality", "images look flat/pasted" and "obvious use of digital tools" more than once. "Not Epilogue quality" is the one that seems to piss the most people off, mostly because they don't understand that all that particular rejection reason means is more than one area needs work.

Anyone that has ever bothered to post a rejected image in the Work In Progress forum with that reason is usually very quickly assured that the editors can only select one rejection reason from a drop down menu and that "NEQ" is given when more than one of the reasons on that list applies to the image. It doesn't mean the image sucks, just that they couldn't pick more than one reason and more than one area needs work.

In the case of what i saw in your Renderosity gallery, i would guess that most your work was rejected for having a combination of lighting issues (which often results in objects appearing flat/pasted) and unrefined details as some of your textures look chunky compared to your figures, which are very well done. That lack of refinement on those elements could also get you the "digital tools" tag. So it certainly doesn't mean your work is bad, just that it still needs a little more work to be considered "Epilogue quality". There is no shame in that. All artists must learn to push themselves and improve, it's what helps make us grow.

No one likes rejection. Heck, the first dozen pieces i submitted to Epilogue were all rejected within about 15 minutes. It took me almost 2 months to get my gallery moving and i still get pieces rejected from time to time. When that happens, i usually rework the image until i get it in. But i accept that as part of Epilogues high standards of quality. Just because i am a published, professional freelancer doesn't mean that every image i do is a masterpiece. And i have to say that, professionally speaking, it's very nice to have some form of higher standard with which to compare my own work against that goes beyond what my clients might expect (most of whom are not artists and would like just about anything i scribbled down). I want to produce the best art i possibly can, and having that goal of making it "Epilogue quality" has really helped me move closer to that goal.

Epilogue isn't for everyone, but i don't think that gives anyone the right to sneer at those of us who expect more from ourselves than the average piece of art or to accuse that community of being snobs simply because they expect more from themselves than the average piece of art.

Now i think it's already been clearly addressed in the Epilogue thread, but i'll say it again: Epilogue does NOT discriminate against any particular medium. Anyone who takes more than a 5 minute look through the galleries there will be able to see that for themselves. I've seen works in Epilogue galleried created with every medium and in nearly every style imaginable. Anyone who says they discriminate based on medium is hugely mistaken. Plain and simple.

As for complaints about their standards being too high, well, i am afraid that's just a matter of personal opinion and will never truly be resolved. I personally think their standards are just fine. But then my work gets accepted more often than not. Perhaps if i got rejected most of the time, i'd think they were too high too. But unlike those who would whine about Epilogue being "unfair" i would get my skills up to par. Come to think of it, that was exactly what i did...go figure.

"has it accured that perhaps there are very legitimate reasons??"

There may indeed be other legitimate reasons, but i have yet to see anyone clearly present one. Instead what i see are people who make broad generalizations about the community based on hearsay and conjecture while not bothering to become a part of it to see if any of it is true. Time and time again i have seen posts like that crop up at Epilogue and time and time again i have seen the editors and members invite these people into the community so they can have a first-hand knowledge of the process. Yet time and time again these people refuse to accept that invitation. They would rather fume and foam about the "injustice" of the Epilogue community than entertain the possibility that they might be mistaken about it. It's sad really...