http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/common_room/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000682 Thought you might find this interesting.

Attached Link: http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/common_room/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000682

OMG ...lordy ohh yes all people that do not like epi are liers and bad artists..omg sure...god they are beyond snobs

let them have their private little online community/ gallery and accept or reject whatever they want. Why bother going over there and trying to debate them into acknowledging poser???. Live and let live.

wolf, love that "live and let live" perfect sentiment. I actually found that post awhile ago, but to me it seemed pointless as their community seems to be art of a different kind, and quite nice work I might add! :) Anyway to each his own. I enjoy poser myself and I think they prefer their painter programs....it's all good ;) Cheers!

I think it's mostly a vocal element of the forum community who have it in for Poser. The editors seem to be fairly reasonable, depending on the work in question. bonni

~sighs~ I was going to go and post..but I think it is a dead horse. It is a shame that still poser artists are seen as lacking or as one post there said cheating. the work that it takes to do a good render not to mention a great one is just......~shakes her head~ for them to make it sound as if it is cheating or that it is not real is just shame. I still have my gallery there but frankly..I do not even know why anymore as the work they accepted from me is like the worst I have done since I was about 12. I just wish that they would be more friendly to artists.

I wouldn't call that a debate. The original complaint has no backing beyond heresay and further posts were incoherent at best. That is a troll. I am familiar with the epilogue editors from across many art sites and forums and I doubt they can even tell (or care) if artwork is done in poser or not - they are judging the finished product. If you firstly pass their standards the "tool" they were made in is irrelevant after that. Conversely, the rejected images were rejected because they didn't reach their standard (composition, lighting, other technicalities), and the "tool" they were made in is irrelevant after that.

quoted thread in that "debate" comes from renderosity as well... this one: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1401633 it strikes me that the reputation of epilogue for being anti-poser is mostly fired by people who never even went to epilogue or submitted art there... and are just sympathising with a friend who got rejected for technical reasons, not solely due to use of poser. there are genuine cases of trolls who have come in this forum (renderosity's poser forum) who posted anti-poser drivel but the anger somehow got redirected to epilogue... perhaps this misdirected anger is because epilogue is the only art site most of us know which explicitly states that 3d art is judged thusly: "Poser, Bryce and other software Artwork created in these programs must be of exceptional quality to be approved. " and people assume the worst... instead of seeing it as intended: that epilogue will expect you to do more to make sure your image is not just stock output from software - eg poser can produce you a fairly good head profile in a few seconds which you can paint over whereas someone using a pencil would take a few more minutes... so epilogue's policy is just to even up the playing field. IMO.

why is it assumed that if someone complains about epilogue they are "mad because of rejection" or a friends rejection? has it accured that perhaps there are very legitimate reasons?? I hate to say it but very real legitamate artists do not like epilogue. and that doesnt mean they are rejected or liers.GUH damn that dead horse!

"has it accured that perhaps there are very legitimate reasons??"

There may indeed be other legitimate reasons, but i have yet to see anyone clearly present one. Instead what i see are people who make broad generalizations about the community based on hearsay and conjecture while not bothering to become a part of it to see if any of it is true. Time and time again i have seen posts like that crop up at Epilogue and time and time again i have seen the editors and members invite these people into the community so they can have a first-hand knowledge of the process. Yet time and time again these people refuse to accept that invitation. They would rather fume and foam about the "injustice" of the Epilogue community than entertain the possibility that they might be mistaken about it. It's sad really...

First of all, I gather that Bella is DarkElegance? Similar writing style as the thread raging in the epilogue forum right now. Second, I have to say I'm a member of Epilogue.. before the pitch forks are broken out and I get roasted alive however, let me say that I think Epilogue artists are getting unfairly tarred with the "Stupid Traditionalists who don't recognize digital art" brush. I have a small gallery here at 'osity of digital landscapes (http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Remnant), and I'm also the author of World Machine, a 3D terrain creation and editing application used by a lot of digital artists. I also have a small epilogue gallery (http://draeger.epilogue.net) that contains my paintings, which are, note, also digitally done. In the last big anti-epilogue thread here, someone mentioned that ya'll should go and start submitting there. I'd say, heck yeah! I would certainly love to see some of the great work here at epilogue, as admittedly, when I'm browsing R'osity, I generally stick just to the Mojoworld and Terragen galleries here. Sure, a fair percentage of the work here would be rejected at epilogue, but then, a fair percentage of everyone's work is rejected there. I guess I just don't understand why everyone loves bashing us. Regards, -- Stephen

Wren I -do- have a gallery there. I have taken part in it. and the work that was accepted from me was..GUH the only reason I keep my gallery there now is to link to renderosity. -I- haven written to the editors but when you submit a piece and it is rejected in record time I am talking about under five minutes and it is rejected sorry but that doesnt seem on the up and up to me. It is not sour grapes as that thread says. it is just plain and simple someone that has given up even trying to expand their gallery over there. specially since the work in my gallery is work that is just kids play...I mean it was the stuff I did the first time I got a computer and was just exploring digital piant mediums. {trust me a huge difference from painting traditional to painting digital and it took a LONG time for me to be able to paint digital and it look decent..not good but just decent} the work I have there is the stuff when you are playing around for the very very first time and go 'OHH LOOKY IT LOOOOOOKS LIKE SOMETHING" and you get rediculously happy and do dumb things like submitting it to a site. the stuff you cring at later. Now I have a message posted on my page saying that due to not being able to add my current work/then a link here to renderosity. I do not think my work is fab..but I dont think it is the trash I have been told it is from those at epilogue. that is not hearsay that is real. I know what I have been told -from people at epilogue- I -have- asked what to tweek out on a pic I submitted...and got NO response. though I admit I didnt know about the WIP forum till this thread started. I have written editors. I am sorry but no I dont see this as sour grapes I am not the only person that has come across the ingnorant behavior from those over there when submitting work. there -are- people geting treated badly when submitting work. I just dont even bother anymore..my last attempt came I guess two weeks ago. with a piece I ran by several people to have it checked this way and that from different perspectives. I got a go for it from several people that have mixed views..I submitted it and guess what ...rejected. I have faced rejection alot you have to in the art world. When you go and ask what to do to make it better or change it because you really want to know and you get slammed...sorry that is just a few steps beyond just a professional rejection of work. { I did not ask this with the last piece} I can not be the only one as others get the same treatment. it is not sour grapes. Please I ask that you see that. Please be fair.

er no I am not bella sorry my gallery over there is under my name Thanks though.

I can vouch for that as I work with her. Back off

ya know DE just forget it like I told you dead horse and they dont give a fuck. I wonder if they will say you were the sniper on the grassy knoll too

Let's not start any false rumours DarkElegance; I didn't see any post there saying Poser is 'cheating'. One of the editors ( McF I think ) said SOME people regard it as cheating and went on to refute that argument with a well reasoned comparison on early attitudes to photograhpy and art. The overall concensus seems to be; method is irrelevent, it's the finished product that matters. Which legitimate artists don't like Epilogue? Can you tell us their reasons? As for your own problems with Epilogue, well the ones you have stated do seem to be about rejection. Were you aware not so long ago ( around about Christmas I think ) Epilogue made a determined effort to raise it's admition standards? Could it be your accepted work was submitted before this? If not, well there are bound to be some inconsistencies, even in the most deligently controlled judgments. If you were tovpost in Epilogues work-in-progress thread, perhaps you may get some deeper explination of why each image was rejected?

If anyone at Epilogue said your work was trash, then that is totally unacceptable. Unfortunately the editors and moderators cannot check ( or even be held responsible for )every comment. If it was made in your gallery you can delete such comments yourself. If it was made in a forum ( I'm surprised the moderators didn't pick up on it ), you should bring it to an editors attention.

I'm sure there will be people at Epilogue who don't like poser, so what? By no stretch of the imaginantion can it be said that Poser is 'not allowed' at Epilogue, there are several Poser ( andvother 3D programs ) based images. As for a vocal element of the community having it in for poser, not one post in thatvthread denounced Poser.

"Wren I -do- have a gallery there. I have taken part in it. and the work that was accepted from me was..GUH the only reason I keep my gallery there now is to link to renderosity.
-I- haven written to the editors but when you submit a piece and it is rejected in record time I am talking about under five minutes and it is rejected sorry but that doesnt seem on the up and up to me. It is not sour grapes as that thread says. it is just plain and simple someone that has given up even trying to expand their gallery over there."

My apologies, i did not mean to imply that you personally made these accusations or that you were one of these people who refuse to become a part of the community. I thought i had made it clear after my initial response to you that the rest of my statements were referring to the post at Epilogue. I'm sorry i didn't make that clearer.

I will say though that just because you can't seem to get your recent work into to Epilogue doesnt mean you or anyone else for that matter are being discriminated against. I looked over your Renderosity gallery (not every piece but a random sample of your most recently posted work) and can see some rather obvious flaws that would prevent some them from being accepted at Epilogue. That's not to say any of them are "bad", they are in fact quite lovely, but most of the ones i saw that met the fantasy/sci-fi genre requirement had issues that could be resolved to make them much stronger pieces.

In particular there seem to be some lighting and composition weaknesses that distract and detract from the overall images. Epilogue editors are trained to see those shortcomings and when they do, those pieces get rejected.

Now granted, i don't know the specific rejection reasons given on the individual pieces you've had rejected, but i would venture to guess that you've gotten the "not epilogue quality", "images look flat/pasted" and "obvious use of digital tools" more than once. "Not Epilogue quality" is the one that seems to piss the most people off, mostly because they don't understand that all that particular rejection reason means is more than one area needs work.

Anyone that has ever bothered to post a rejected image in the Work In Progress forum with that reason is usually very quickly assured that the editors can only select one rejection reason from a drop down menu and that "NEQ" is given when more than one of the reasons on that list applies to the image. It doesn't mean the image sucks, just that they couldn't pick more than one reason and more than one area needs work.

In the case of what i saw in your Renderosity gallery, i would guess that most your work was rejected for having a combination of lighting issues (which often results in objects appearing flat/pasted) and unrefined details as some of your textures look chunky compared to your figures, which are very well done. That lack of refinement on those elements could also get you the "digital tools" tag. So it certainly doesn't mean your work is bad, just that it still needs a little more work to be considered "Epilogue quality". There is no shame in that. All artists must learn to push themselves and improve, it's what helps make us grow.

No one likes rejection. Heck, the first dozen pieces i submitted to Epilogue were all rejected within about 15 minutes. It took me almost 2 months to get my gallery moving and i still get pieces rejected from time to time. When that happens, i usually rework the image until i get it in. But i accept that as part of Epilogues high standards of quality. Just because i am a published, professional freelancer doesn't mean that every image i do is a masterpiece. And i have to say that, professionally speaking, it's very nice to have some form of higher standard with which to compare my own work against that goes beyond what my clients might expect (most of whom are not artists and would like just about anything i scribbled down). I want to produce the best art i possibly can, and having that goal of making it "Epilogue quality" has really helped me move closer to that goal.

Epilogue isn't for everyone, but i don't think that gives anyone the right to sneer at those of us who expect more from ourselves than the average piece of art or to accuse that community of being snobs simply because they expect more from themselves than the average piece of art.

Now i think it's already been clearly addressed in the Epilogue thread, but i'll say it again: Epilogue does NOT discriminate against any particular medium. Anyone who takes more than a 5 minute look through the galleries there will be able to see that for themselves. I've seen works in Epilogue galleried created with every medium and in nearly every style imaginable. Anyone who says they discriminate based on medium is hugely mistaken. Plain and simple.

As for complaints about their standards being too high, well, i am afraid that's just a matter of personal opinion and will never truly be resolved. I personally think their standards are just fine. But then my work gets accepted more often than not. Perhaps if i got rejected most of the time, i'd think they were too high too. But unlike those who would whine about Epilogue being "unfair" i would get my skills up to par. Come to think of it, that was exactly what i did...go figure.

ah, my apologies then DE, you seemed to be making the same points as Bella so I thought that perhaps you were the same person. Getting into a huge debate here is not exactly a fun use of anyone's time, so I'll just accept that some people will never like epilogue, and move on. There are many art sites on the web, and getting emotional over one of them isn't worth the effort. One thing I did want to mention though: I wouldn't take the rejection from Epi so insultingly. My stuff usually gets rejected in under 10 minutes too -- they have enough editors there that you're not left in limbo long waiting. If anyone says that your stuff was rejected because it's crap, then they deserve a kick in the teeth, but I doubt that's what the rejection reason was! Post a rejected image in the WIP forum, and I'll bet you ten to one that there'll be lots of people willing to help you figure out what the issue behind the rejection was and fix it. That is, if its worth it to you to improve the images. If not, then move on with a smile :) Cheers. -- Stephen

my stuff is not fab...not compared to some here. that is not something I have a point with. I have only been working with poser since december of last year. every piece I do I learn more and more. I have only had a puter for a couple of years. I have given up on the epilogue thing I said it once befor and well now...my work moves in a more erotic direction and that doesnt fit often to epilogue and I have also found several other galleries that either accept my work or ask for it. I just ask that when someone makes a comment..that instead of you taking it as sour grapes as it was put...realize that there may be a reason. Sour grapes denotes at least to me, a maliciousness to actions. and most times it is not that it is honest frustration and confusion that is behind such things. also, I think it is good to show an artists growth in their gallery that is why I do not remove my earlier poser pieces. I may hate them but they show my steps. I have over my years faced many rejections I have been working in the art field since my teens, wont go into my age lets leave it at that lol. rejection is not the point. rejection with no rymn or reason with no answer with no-this or that can make it better- that is different. it is like the debate here about the TOS it was at one point about what an artist is told when a piece is removed. the things that are shown when a piece is rejected at epilogue are vague at best. it wouldnt take much more effort to add a bit to the words. it could still be a set phrase that is given out so that each editor doesnt have to write a paragraph..but it would at least point an artist in the right direction. "obviouse use of digital tools or "not epilogue qualityohh I can not think of the other one..the one about refined or defined ...but that could be added withit would take the mick out of the rejection notice. it would give the artist a direction. it would take no more effort then hiting the same button ok..perhaps hiting two buttons or birds eyes. but that is about it. and it would help the artists. I dont know just an idea perhaps

"wouldnt take much more effort to add a bit to the words. it could still be a set phrase that is given out so that each editor doesnt have to write a paragraph..but it would at least point an artist in the right direction. " They actually talked about adding an extra comment box for editors to to give additional direction but the websites coding didn't allow for it and it was determined that it might be asking too much of the editors. they already give up a great deal of their personal time for us as it is, it's seemed unfair to demand more from them. Besides, there are plenty of helpful artist on the WIP forum that can and do see the same problems the editors did and who help the artists make corrections. In the unusual circumstance that no one can pin down the problem, and editor almost always steps in and clarifies the areas that need work.

~sighs~ I dont know then. there are many people here as well that give up time. I do not know if the mods here are payed or not but...it just takes so little to give a clear reason. just so very little. I dont know I guess I am just goofy.

SOME of the people in the forums there can be extremely nasty about Poser, but some people can be nasty about anything. I participate in the forums there somewhat and have very carefully watched/read and I've found that it's only a small and vitriolic minority who are rabidly anti-Poser. Most really don't care that much one way or the other, although they'll sometimes comment on things that they think they know (or which they observe) as being "Poser problems", the same way someone might say, "Well, that's a known problem with working in oil pastels...". Seriously, I honestly think it's mostly that some people are just plain nasty and rude, and they have it in for Poser users for any of a million reasons, some of which are probably not even rational. I've read many statements from the editors, though, and I really don't think they're especially "anti-Poser". They're very, very, VERY picky for various reasons, yes, but I think they're that way with ALL media, not just digital, and not just Poser and/or Bryce. I've never gotten an image approved there. shrug I don't actually try that hard. Now and then I have something I think might work and I submit it and when it gets rejected, I delete it and don't worry about it. Those editors can't tell me what's "good" and what isn't. I enjoy what I do, I'm learning all the time, hell, I went to art school (yes, really, although I went into graphic design rather than "fine art"). Them approving or disapproving my work doesn't mean I'm good, bad, or indifferent. It just means the work I've submitted isn't suitable for THOSE editors at THAT site. Fact is, I've had my work published in digital art magazines, I've done plenty of commission work, and my work is greatly enjoyed by some people, including myself. If the editors at Epilogue don't "approve" it, it's not that important in the long run. At least, that's the way I approach it. I still enjoy reading the discussions in the forums there. Some are very interesting and have really good points. I just blow off the stuff from narrow-minded people who just want to be nasty (just like I do here and at Elfwood ;-). Just purely my $0.02, of course. :-) bonni

"I do not know if the mods here are payed or not but...it just takes so little to give a clear reason"
I am not aware that work submitted to Renderosity is juried. The pieces i have here were all uploaded instantly and as far as i could tell, did not go through any sort of manual approval process. In fact, the only other gallery which i know of that DOES have an manual approval process besides Epliogue, is Elfwood, and their ticket queue is constantly backed up by at least 10-15 days (somtimes more). I've never had an Epilogue submission take more than 2 days and that was on a rejection.

And the thing is, Epilogue DOES give a rejection reason AND they've recently added an FAQ that covers in detail what each rejection reason means. Plus there is still the WIP forum where members and editors alike give feedback and input on posted works. How much more should the editors be expected to do? And why should they be expected to do it when a little careful observation and some small effort on the part of the artist to post the image for feedback makes most rejection reasons fairly apparent?

I usually have a good idea before i upload a piece if it has potential problems with it. Usually it's one of those "something's not quite right but i can't put my finger on it" sort of feelings. So when such a piece comes back with an "antomy needs work" tag or an "image looks flat or pasted" tag, that's pretty much all i need to set me in the right direction. And if it's not, i post in the WIP. I don't see that it is the editors job to be my art teacher and tell me the specifics of what i did wrong. Sure it would be nice, but that's not really what they are there for. And despite that fact that their only true requirement as editors is to accept or reject each piece submitted, the editors still take time out to post to the threads of people who need help getting a piece up to par.

Going back to that Rockette example i gave earlier: the pannel of judges that decides who will or won't become a Rockette, does NOT give critques. For that matter, most juried art shows and galleries do NOT give feedback. A simple yes or no is all you get. The way i see it, the Epilogue editors already go way above and beyond their designated duties. To expect them to do more is, in my opinion, asking too much.

I admire ( and agree with ) your attitude elizabyte, rational and to the point. Disclaimer -this comment is NOT an attack on any person or group.

Thanks. :-) bonni

Wren I was not saying the mods here judge the work befor it is posted. I was saying that our mods here work very very hard as well and give a heck of alot to this site. they get backed up too with people either complaining of a piece in the gallery or with other situations. they get bombarded..they get harrassed..they get dragged into debates...they work vvvvvverrrrrrryy hard here too. BUT..they will take the time at the drop of a hat to talk to a member..to write..to give advice..to near anything. To say that it is not fair to the epilogue mods or editors to listen and answer a members question is not logical. as Renderosity proves that those with overly full plates and huge work loads still can take a moment to help. you know come to think of it.... that just shows how great our mods and admins are. ~smiles~ well now....this thread just brightened my day. Thank you Renderosity. :)

Hello all

Ive been a member of ROsity for a while now, although I have never posted in the forums. But I feel the need to do so now.

Like DE, Id been playing with Poser for close to a year at present, with Bryce for 3-4 monthsand that is ALL my artistic background. Never even doodled as a kid. I came to Epilogue several weeks ago, submitting 6 or 7 pictures. 2 of them (done in Bryce) got accepted right away, the rest were rejected for obvious use of digital tools.

Stubborn person that I am, I submitted another image, one I thought to be better than those previous ones. Againobvious use of digital tools. I took it to the WIP forum and received and reasonable and objective explanation of the editors reasoning (from the rejecting editor herself). And then all hell broke loose

well, not really, as the discussion remained more or less civilbut I did receive quite a few derisive comments toward Poser people who use to create the non-art. But here is the thing: AT NO POINT DID SUCH COMMENTS COME FROM ANY OF THE EDITORS/EPILOGUE STAFF. On the contrary, here is a quote from one of the Epilogue editors during that discussion:

The "obviousness" we don't want to see includes things like badly interlocking meshes (I have never used a 3D program and may be using the wrong terminology, but what I'm talking about is when parts of the image seem to go through other parts or overlap them inappropriately), poorly made texture maps with obvious seams all over them, Poser dolls with little or no postwork, stiff or anatomically implausible poses--in general, poor use of the software which results in a shoddy-looking image. There's nothing wrong with well-done 3D art. We did try to make that clearer with the explanation page, but I'll say it again--we have NO PROBLEM with computer art that looks like it was made on a computer. We have a problem with computer art that was done badly.

After that discussion, Id resubmitted the original image (reworked) several times. Still it was rejected, though reasons were now different. Another image submittedand rejected as being not Epilogue quality. Naturally, I began to feel that I am being picked on, in light of my loudly stating I do indeed use Poser to create my art. It did not help that, looking through the Epilogue galleries, I saw several pieces that, to my eye, seemed to be just full of same flaws as my own faulted on (thankfully, I had the good grace to keep that opinion to myself). Another discussion in the WIP forum followed, again with quite a few forum members restating the all-familiar Poser is too easy to be considered art yet Poser art looks like crap unless heavily painted-over opinion. It was annoying, to say the least, and the rejections were certainly painful.

But guess what? Being a fair person (I should like to think), once my initial frustration blew over, I had togrudginglyJ--admit that every comment on the technical aspects of my rejected images which came from the editors had made sense. Some of them could be considered quite nitpicky, but nonetheless, they had all made sense. So in the end, the entire affair served one purpose: I now look at my own work with a much more critical eye, especially when it comes to composition and perspective, the lighting and the overall finish. Is that bad? I think not. And another thing the upshot of that was almost immediate: the latest image Id submitted to the Epilogue gallery got approved on the first tryand no, I did not at all change my style to hide that it was done in Poser. One can still tell, relatively easily, that indeed Poser was my base tool.

Interestingly enough, someone whose writing style very much resembles Bellas (though she is denying it) left the following comment under the said imageand right before the entire discussion broke out in the forum:

ohh noooo no "obviouse use of digital tools here" gawd when is epilogue going to at least attempt to give the appearance of fairness and start being consistant?

Just for the reference purposes, here is the link to the image in question:

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=516707&Start=1&Artist=yulia&ByArtist=Yes

I dont know about you guys, but I would not tag an entire community as elitist, bigoted and so forth on the word of someone who trolls other peoples galleries.

Yes, Epilogue has frustrated me more than onceand, I suspect, it will happen again.Yes, some people there are very much against 3D tools in general and Poser in particular. But, having had my share of unpleasant experiences, I honestly do not see Epilogue in its entirety as anti-Poser. And it DID do my work a world of good to be judged severely, even if a few people were intentionally cruel in their remarks about it.

guh you know this is begining to tick me off. it can be proven that this bella is not me. PROVABLY for gods sakes. as anyone can see. I HAVE NO PROBLEM PUTING MY NAME ON THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS I HAVE. my co workers and those that were with me the past few nights can more then attest to what I was doing and were I was doing it at. but apparently that is not good enough. here in case it was missed.. IF I HAVE SOMETHING I WANT TO SAY I HAVE NO TROUBLE VOICING IT. is that clear enough now? do I have to do a 1000x1000 render to prove a point? perhaps a map? would that make it any clearer? also I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON THAT THINKS THIS WAY ABOUT EPILOGUE does that type of typing come across clearer? let me guess I am now responsable for every bad comment ever made to epilogue? I am the only person that has this view? I DO NOT think so. if so the threads that have happened here and other places would not even happen. There are other threads here in renderosity that have other people that say the same thing,does that mean I am them? God almighty. GET A FLIPPING BLUE CLUE. I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON THAT THINKS THAT WAY.

oh and Yulia not just this thread but the other one that is titled "anti-poser people:(" and this one http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1346571 yes it is true they are all me as well. every thread that has anyone in it that dislikes epilogue is actually me. that is right I have millions of names and just do nothing more then sit and start threads. oh and and PD said..I am also the one on the grassy knoll. God...Open your eyes and get a clue.

look up in this thread and you will see why ok? you said the same thing the other person did. as for explosive trust me you havent seen it yet.

DE, were your lame attempts at sarcasm in your last two posts directed at me? If so, I don't quite get what you're bitching about. When have I accused you of being Bella? All I said was that the comment left in my gallery likely belonged to Bella even though she is denying it, and that someone who trolls is hardly a reliable sourse of information in my eyes. At no time did I imply that you, Bella and this anonymous 'guest' in question were the same person; is there a reason you chose to take it that way?

You really need to learn how to chill and not jump down people's throats, particularly if you intend on starting/carrying threads which have a high probability of turning explosive.

yulia removed your post? just as I was posting..guh

post 33 WAS after yulias original post but she reposted.

Yes, I did, as I saw that I misspelled the initials of your handle (I had it as DM rather than DE), and I see no way to edit a post here.

"yulia removed your post? just as I was posting..guh " "post 33 WAS after yulias original post but she reposted. " nah, rosity forum is quirkly like that, you posted with the same timestamp (10/17/03 00:57) and it does random things with them. i think this thread is not helping anyone, just confusing people, so since epilogue editors have stated they are NOT against poser and have a WIP forum for help then maybe it's best to leave this alone now?

"Yes, I did, as I saw that I misspelled the initials of your handle (I had it as DM rather than DE), and I see no way to edit a post here. " alright, so she did, but rosity forum is still quirky :)

yes I see...I am so wrong about epilogue they are after all ever so friendly........

April it is ok thank you for trying to help I do appreciate it

Look, DE, seriously, chill the hell out... As I saw it, someone had honestly assumed you were Bella because of the similar writing styles--and then sincerely apologized for their mistake; someone else (me in this case) made a statement that Bella seemed to have had no other purpose but trolling when starting the thread on the Epilogue forums. How did that provoke you? I hope you do realize that, coming across as bitchy as you are at this point, you are seriously damaging the credibility of your righteous indignation with the ever so evil Epilogue?

On the bright side, I find it greatly amusing that I somehow got bunched up with the anti-Poser crowd when Poser is all I use--and, as is evident from my first post, I've gotten into several fairly mean fights with them myself, defending the very points you're bringing up here.

And April, yes, Poser forum does seem to be quirky; it ate my post from this afternoon. Hindsight, it was a good thing, too.:)

no thanks necessary - and i apologise to all for any extra grief i may have caused for being so prickly yesterday (post 8&9) cos it seemed to me people jumped on the "epilogue is mean" bandwagon without going to epilogue or even submitting stuff to epilogue, which is just as mean as what some people were acusing epilogue for of dismissing poser art without due regard. lol which is where the penny dropped that we're going in circles unecessarily! :D anyhoo, epilogue can be a great place to get really detailed crits... just bring a lot of skin ;)

I didnt put you with the anti poser bunch but with the epilogue bunch and as for validaty back peddling as you are doesnt say much either. your post is right up there and said the exact same thing as the other one did. and I am not bitchy yet. ticked yes. as for validaty in epilogue right now I dont give a flying . get off my case. I havent done crap to you. you came in making your remark. and for record. if you had gone to the other post about the antiposer people you would of seen I even stated in one of my posts that epilogue does have some jaw droping poser work. get your facts straight about me befor you start flaming me

This debate is an old one and I guess, will continue to be brought up every now and then. I stand with yulia and bonni on this one. Oh and April. All very eloquently put their point across. I am a member at Epilogue and proud to be so. I first stumbled onto the website when looking for a tutorial almost 2 yrs ago. I have been a member since then and submitting my work for just a little over a yr. My gallery is quite small compared to most and I continue to submit. I use Poser, Bryce and Vue as well as Painter and Photoshop. To me they are just digital art tools! I have had too many rejections to count but that doesn't bother me... it pushes me forward. There are some very anal people there but no more than in any other artist community! shrug Generally, the editors and staff are fairly giving of their time and creative processes. There is a lot of learning done over there. There are a small hand-ful of loud anti-poser voices but no different than the loud pro-poser voices who seem to do more harm than good in the "accepting poser models as a digital art tool" debate! imho. It should just be about learning and producing quality art. It will always be subjective but there is a general standard and set of rules they use for reviewing art regardless of the medium. And that's what's important. Most of the editors look at the overall image in terms of composition, lighting, anatomy (if relevent), colour use etc.. etc... and that's the case whether you have used poser, bryce, vue or just done a "from scratch" painting in photoshop. Who cares what tools you used? How good is the finished piece?? Just my thoughts on the subject :)

Wren I was not saying the mods here judge the work befor it is posted.

My apologies. Your inital comment made it sound like the Mod duties here are the same as the editors duties at Epilogue and i didn't think that they were. I just wondered if i was missing something. Apparently i am not.

**I was saying that our mods here work very very hard as well and give a heck of alot to this site.
they get backed up too with people either complaining of a piece in the gallery or with other situations.
they get bombarded..they get harrassed..they get dragged into debates...they work vvvvvverrrrrrryy hard here too.
BUT..they will take the time at the drop of a hat to talk to a member..to write..to give advice..to near anything.
To say that it is not fair to the epilogue mods or editors to listen and answer a members question is not logical. as Renderosity proves that those with overly full plates and huge work loads still can take a moment to help
**
I thought i made it quite clear that the Epilogue editors DO jump in and help people and give comments. They do it all the time on the forums as well as answer e-mails and private messages from members in addition to handling complaints, requests while at the same time dealing with all the things you just described for Renderosity moderators. I guess my question to you now is: is commenting on the forums and answereing e-mails and PM's not enough? You seem to suggest that in Epilogues case it isn't but that in Renderosity's case it is. Or perhaps you simply don't realize just how much the Epilogue editors really do interact with the comminity there and that they are no less approachable than the Mods here at Renderosity? Either way, i would like to emphasize once again that the editors at Epilogue are more than free with deatiled critiques when asked for them. Yulia's post should more than prove that point.

And speaking of yulia's post and your rather, um, extreme reply. I think it only fair to point out that i didn't see (indeed i don't think anybody saw) anything from yulia to imply that you were bella. And since I see no way for anyone to delete or edit an existing post here, i think it highly unlikely that yulia went back and doctored out some offending statement. So i don't know what it was you did see, but since you were the only one who saw it, to everyone else you look like a raving lunatic. I think perhaps it might be a good idea to re-evaluate your position on the matter and entertain the idea that you may have misread something and jumped to a wrong conclusion.

And since I see no way for anyone to delete or edit an existing post here, i think it highly unlikely that yulia went back and doctored out some offending statement

Ah, i only just now saw where a post can be deleted. But i still don't see a way to edit...and i also saw nothing to indicate that yulia thought DarkElegance was bella.