tonyvilters posted at 9:37AM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257207

This "merge" only shows that the customers, the vendors, and ultimately the sites follow the better figures.

Everybody is loyal to the best figures, and this is NOT about what company or what app. It is ALL about who has the most attractive figures and thus creates the most income.

it is sad, but money talks.

I would argue that quality is doing the talking here. Sure, Poser itself is my preferred posing platform but I've abandoned it because I've consistently had multiple problems making Genesis and Genesis 2 work and because Genesis 3 isn't compatible at all and these figures are clearly superior to anything that SM has offered up to and including Pauline and Paul which are clearly just Dawn and Dusk renamed and bundled with Poser 11. There are numerous threads here and in other 3D forums, including RDNA and DAZ's own community forums site wanting for and trying to get Genesis 3 compatibility for Poser and others trying to figure out workarounds to make it work. Repeatedly, SM's reps here and elsewhere claim that this is all on DAZ and only DAZ can make Genesis 3 compatible with Poser. I have a really, really hard time buying that. Since I've abandoned using Poser for this issue and I've got over a decade of Poser compatible content in my various libraries, I've had absolutely no problem getting that content, including Poser native character figures, props, scenes, etc, to work in DAZ Studio Pro. None whatsoever. SM's Poser developers write their software and they're trying to convince their customers that they are completely helpless when it comes to DAZ Genesis 3 compatibility in Poser? Please. They can clearly write Genesis 3 compatibility into their software. DAZ's developers don't seem to have much difficulty in writing compatibility of Poser's content in Studio. Smith Micro has a lot of different types of software products, archivers, utilities, graphics, blah blah blah. DAZ does mostly one thing: 3D. Obviously Smith Micro just doesn't care enough to support Poser. If it goes down, they've got other stuff they can make money from.

Ultimately Poser's best hope for survival is for it to be spun off or sold and simply abandoned and made open source which would ultimately be the best solution for the 3D community. But don't ever expect SM to ever truly support its Poser customers. In the end, they really just don't need us all that much.

Merger... This ain't no merger. That's just a sugar coat. This is an acquisition. RDNA's owners clearly saw which way the 3D winds are blowing and set sail for the obviously brighter horizon. What's really interesting is that RDNA has been one of the few places that actually had aftermarket support for Poser's character content - aka Pauline and Paul, which are obviously just Dawn and Dusk renamed. On SM's Poser support page, the forums link took you to....RDNA as the official Poser forum. Anyone who doesn't see this and another indication that Poser is dying a slow death... well. I wonder how long DAZ Studio will continue to be offered free. DAZ has done everything right so far and SM...? Notsamuch.

chaecuna posted at 3:40PM Wed, 13 January 2016 - #4248753

@crashworship: wise decision not to hold your breath.

What make me mad is that the only item the prevents a complete FOSS pipeline from 2D concept art to composited movies are humanoid figures. Unfortunately, MakeHuman content is not up to snuff to obsolete Poser/Studio content.

DAZ open sourcing Studio? you must be joking, they are rising walls around their upcoming digital Alcatraz they are building.

Yeah, I know. DAZ open sourcing Studio isn't likely. I forgot about MakeHuman. I've had a small bit of success importing a MakeHuman figure into Poser Pro 2014 and rigging it but you're right, the quality is way behind DAZ's people as far back as Vicky 3. That's why I argue that the only possible path towards cross platform compatibility can only come from the community. Neither DAZ nor SM seem to be willing to cooperate so a community created work around is the only option. This thread shows that since DAZ refuses to make an importer for G3F/M into Poser, there are people working on a community solution. I hope they find one.

I'm done with Poser and won't be upgrading to 11/2016 Pro because it seems that the "new" figure that Poser now bundles with it is just Dawn renamed Pauline. I've never been a big fan of Dawn because of that odd cross-eyed pointy face look. I can't help thinking Morlock when I see Dawn's/Pauline's face. If I can't use DAZ characters in Poser, what use is it to me? Daz's characters are clearly superior. I've been getting used to Studio simply because I've been using but ultimately, I still prefer Poser but none of Poser's native content appeals to me. So no DAZ people in Poser, then no Poser for me.

OPEN SOURCE...

I think the only solution to true compatibility is for the community to take over 3D scene creation software. Blender is an answer to commercial 3D modeling software that sometimes costs as much as a car. Gimp does everything that Photoshop can do. Look what those wonderful guys and Luxrender have been able to achieve. I haven't purchased a Microsoft Office version in 15 years because Open Office does it all just as well. I'm a photographer, not a software engineer but if I was and with my increasing frustration with the growing incompatibility between DAZ content and Poser, I would definitely be thinking along those lines. At this stage in my life and career, it's way too late to become a developer but I've spent enough time in these forums to know that there are many here who do have the developer chops to make this happen. Since DAZ and SM seem to be no longer willing to cooperate, that may be the only workable solution available. It certainly won't be any skin off of DAZ's nose since they offer Studio for free. Wouldn't it be great if they finally turned over an application they no longer sell and profit from to the 3D community and let those who love doing CG 3D to run with it from there? Sun Microsystems did that with Open Office. Sun was long ago swallowed up by Oracle but even someone with the ego of Larry Ellison had the good sense to let Open Office run free. Larry Ellison of all people. We all know that the only difference between God and Larry Ellison is that God doesn't think he's Larry Ellison and yet Ellison gave Open Office to the community. DAZ would still profit just as much if not more from content creation and a community created 3D scene increase demand for their content.

I'm not holding my breath tho.

"I gotta disagree with the "DAZ makes better content"

Maybe I should have phrased that a bit differently. I should have said "characters" instead. As for the clothing/hair/accessories available in DAZ's marketplace, most of that seems to have been created for the various V + M generations by third party venders. My own experience with that stuff is, especially with Genesis 2 characters, the aftermarket clothing seems to conform quite nicely between the various DAZ characters and I've also noticed that now many of those items are V+M4 as well as Genesis 2 compatible.

As I said previously, I got into this kind of out of curiosity and my use of both the software and the content is merely as a dilettante so my experience is probably not as extensive as most of the other posters here. I think I downloaded a trial version of Poser after stumbling across it and just wanted to know what it was. Jessie was the first character I ever tried to pose and that was only because it was included with Poser and I'd never heard of DAZ or it's stable of characters so my experience using this content probably isn't as extensive as most of the other posters here. But from my own experience use DAZ's characters from V3 through Genesis 2 is that compatibility and conformity props, hair and clothing has gotten far easier and better.

I seldom use Studio but when I do, I find myself craving the user interface of Poser and since I routinely bypass Poser's rendering engine for LuxRender, whether or not Studio's rendering engine is better or worse or just different really isn't an issue for me. But it's easy to understand why DAZ figures might render better in Studio. After all, why wouldn't DAZ make a rendering engine dialed in for their characters? They'd be crazy not to.

Maybe what we're seeing in the relationship between SM/Poser and DAZ 3D is a little like what happened a couple of guys named Gates and Allen realized that selling the software to run personal computers was going to be a lot more profitable that make and selling the hardware. DAZ is a little like Microsoft in that regard altho I'd argue their products relatively speaking are much better than Microsoft's (I'm a Mac guy through and through but let's not get started on that). Poser is the IBM equivalent - still in business and still profitable, still in the Fortune 500 but long ago bypassed by Microsoft in total value et al.

Why get angry? You're preaching to the choir. I get you. Poser is better. I agree. But DAZ creates far better content. I would love it if the native content in Poser was equal. But it ain't. Not even close. Both are businesses. Both want and need profit. I get that too. Here's what I argue.... If SM/Poser included far better native content with the purchase of Poser, there'd be far less of a threat from third party content providers. Then again, if Poser included far better content with a Poser purchase, then it might make third party content creators not want to create content. It's a tough line to draw.

I love Poser. I love DAZ's characters. I love them both. I want both products and software to succeed. How do we make all this work? IDN. I really don't. What I do sense is that both companies need each other. And they seem to strive to make their products compatible. If SM/Poser gave us better content/characters, it would be an enhancement, not competition. We'd have more choices which would  be better. The community of users would have more to choose from. OK, fine. They my not choose V+ as often, but V+ would still be a very desirable and compelling option. As would whatever SM/Poser's native and far improved native character options would be. I love choices. I want more of them. That's why my wish list in Renderosity is so long. Give me choices. You won't die. You'll in fact thrive.

@pumeco

I agree to a point. I thinks it's obvious that the reason DAZ made Studio Pro free was because users were far more willing to shell out cold hard cash for Poser to create their scenes and shell out cold hard cash to populate those scenes with DAZ and DAZ compatible content. I've used both Studio Pro 4+ and Poser Pro 2014. Even tho Studio is free to me, I'm still more willing to pay for Poser Pro because I like it better. There are things that Poser does - Face Room, Cloth Room, Hair Room - that I would love to use but don't because they are either not compatible with the figures - Vicky and Mike - that I prefer to use or they are just too hard to use with those figures. I've seen Nerd's tutorial on Poser's fitting room, watched it a few times in fact, but I sill can't make that room work with Vicky. I'm sure that's more my fault than it is Poser's fault. I'm a dilettante, a hobbyist. I'm a professional photographer, have been one my entire adult life. The reason why I do CG 3D is because it gives me the opportunity to create realistic scenes that would be very difficult, maybe even impossible, and hugely expensive to create in a camera. One of my biggest complaints about Poser, other than the messy library organization, is that the various customization rooms - fitting, hair, cloth, material - are so Byzantine and not at all intuitive. They may be discernible to professionals or people who've spent countless hours over long years using them, but for most of us, they're simply too opaque. There's really nothing at all intuitive about them. And let me be clear, I've been a Photoshop user for over 20 years. I've learned it and know it well because I've used it daily since Photoshop 2.5 was introduced. In fact I'm quite comfortable using most of Adobe's creative suite. So I'm hardly someone who doesn't know and isn't comfortable using complex, high end CG software.

**I think the reason why Nerd created this survey and started this thread was because, as the now head of product development for Poser, he wanted to know what Poser users liked and didn't like about Poser. The problem with surveys is that don't always ask the questions you'd like to answer and they don't always give you the option to answer questions the way you'd like to. I truly do hope that Nerd's been following this discussion. I'm just one of thousands of Poser's users but I hardly think my concerns are in a vacuum. I like Poser and I'm still willing to pay for it rather than use the free option that I can get from DAZ. I don't think making Poser more compatible with DAZ's content is a threat to Poser and I don't think that giving Poser users better native character content is a threat to DAZ. It just gives all of us more and better options. What's wrong with that. 
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I'm not saying that Roxie doesn't have potential. Maybe a gym membership, a regular visit to that PED guy who lives in that dark creepy house down the street, the guy with all those grotesquely huge muscles... She needs some buffing up. Nerd, the OP, is now the head of product development at Smith Micro. He's got the goods, wink wink. I kinda think the reason why he created this survey is to find out what SM needs to do to up it's ante. Doesn't mean you have to abandon your Roxie. She'll always be there as long as your hard drive remains viable. Kinda like Millennial Victoria, the first Victoria. She's still there. I'm sure there are those who still use her. But Roxie needs to evolve - mega mesh wise. Give her the tools to go heads with Vicky 6. Give Simon those tools too. There are over 7 billion people on this planet. Why do 3D enthusiasts have to be limited to, what, six or seven base human characters?

"@Crashworship
Nice render, but Roxie is still best :-)

My Roxie can certainly tease if she wants to, and while she does look angry now and then, she doesn't walk around looking like that!"

IDK... maybe I just haven't used the G2 figures as much but I wish that the G2 characters had more morphing options. Seems like there's very little third party content being developed for them as well. You scroll through the marketplace here on Renderosity and there are hundreds of characters available for Victoria and Micheal and even a ton for Dawn (another figure I've never quite warmed up to - something about face reminds me of the of the Morlocks from the original Time Machine movie) but nothing for G2 male of female. That tells me that Smith Micro needs to up their game when it comes to character development.

Updated image baked in LuxRender for a total of 2.25kS/p does show dramatically better skin tones for the Sydney based G2 figures but there's still a weird stretching artifact on their shoulders. Regardless of the poses, the G2 based characters just don't look right to me.

I do feel compelled to point out that by using different poses on the SM figures (ie the spread legged, sexless lets gunfight pose) than the 'lets all do Vogue' sexy pose the V and g figures have really slants things. The outer figures are not posed to show their figures like the two inner ones are.

Point taken. I tried to apply the same pose to all of them but no go. The poses that were made for the V figures horribly distorted the G2 figures and vice versa. So I had to find something reasonably close to the V6-4 pose that was intended for the Sydney 2 character. I just threw this thing together to make a side by side comparison so I wasn't going the spend the time to pose each of these figures identically. But the point is that even tho the V6-4 are highly idealized, they also seem to be far more proportionally correct and consequently more (suspended disbelief) believable. The G2 characters look kinda like poor imitations of Hobits to me. Just not quite right.

My Roxie doesn't look like that at all, my Roxie looks deadly beautiful (see avatar).

Well, I see a grayscale mugshot with a hood which yes, does look pretty good.

For the record, I loaded G2 and then applied Roxie's morphs and textures, left them as is and that gave me an "Ideal adult" height setting. The pose is from the Sydney G2 poses file. I did the same with the Alyson figure. The hair props are from their compatible hair folders. I'm rendering this image in LuxRender now and the skin textures do seem quite a bit better than the draft Poser render shown in the image posted. Far better in fact. But there's no improvement regarding shape and I have far fewer options if I wanted to modify shapes than I'm given with the V6 and V4 characters shown. V6 Lilith is is SSS and shown as she loads with hair and makeup added. V4 is SSS with a legacy (perhaps Poser 7?) texture and hair. The G2 Roxie (also SSS) and Alyson characters look kinda freakish and weird in a bad way to me while the V6 and V4 characters are indeed freakish, but very much in a good way.

I took this survey this survey a few days ago and I remember a few questions asking how often I use Poser's natively included characters. I realized that it has been years since I've even tried to load an included Poser character, probably since my first version of Poser when I knew very little about the application and posing programs in general. I certainly had never heard of DAZ 3D's Michael and Victoria figures so Jessie and Ryan, I think, were the first characters I began experimenting with. As I started to learn more about Poser and discovered DAZ's characters, I've kind of forgotten that Poser includes these G2 characters with it's content download. I've certainly never tried to load a DAZ characters and a Poser character at the same time.

So I decided to give that a try and see what the difference is. Big, big difference in fact. Now I know why I don't use Poser's characters. I generally like Poser, prefer it to the other 3D applications I have: Studio, Cararra and Blender. It has it's faults, library organization not being the least of them, but overall I still prefer to use it when creating scenes. But seriously Poser devs, can't you create better characters than Roxie and Alyson as shown in this image? I realize the V6 and V4 characters shown are highly idealized humans but I use this software to create something at once believable and fantastic at the same time. I'm certainly not going to get that using the G2 characters included with Poser.