but a gallery would be a little more complicated... not if you had php and mysql capabilities on what ever hosting service you chose. That means you could upload a database gallery similar to the one here, with comments enabled and whats more many of the programs like gallery and coppermine are free to use. As I say if you feel that strongly about something it's always better to do something about it. I'm all for action :) Pink

but I am (personally) more interested in seeing how far a package can be pushed to produce the same image as an artist since thats the area that facinates me. I am sure there are others that share this facination too and all I want is a quick way of finding images that show what is possible using CGI on its own.

Then this is the problem, you are on the wrong site, this is an art/gallery site not a programers or poser specific site. Problem with this argument as it continues and gets more heated is that people assume that the largest number of people browsing here are artists, they aren't, and they certainly aren't poser/bryce/lightwave or whatever users. They are purley and simply art lovers, whose only interest lies in the finished image.
I have read and understood this thread, and it seems clear that your interst lies not in art itself and the images produces, rather than in the technical aspects and program skill used to achieve it.
Surely there is a programers based forum or gallery at Curious Labs, if there isn't thats where you should be concentrating your efforts. As this is an art site only a very small number would really be interested in pushing the program to it's limits. As shown on this thread, for Renderosity to open another gallery just for maybe a few 100 members wouldn't be cost effective especially as they create a vast amount of revenue from postworking aids. It would also mean sadly that less people would actually see these technical inspired images either as the average non artistic viewer would pass right by having no appreciation what so ever of such technical inspired images. I am well aware that there is a lot of talent going into being a pure render image, but this talent takes time and lets face it while you're learning the images tend to be dry and dull IMHO. If you are paying for bandwidth lets face it, would you sift through such galleries to find the diamonds if thats not your particular interest.
I see no reason to segregate art at all whatever form in an ART site, I know you have stated that you don't care how someone produces and image, and thats good. But segregating galleries into such specific catagories will eventually perpetuate in people disputing what is actually art and what isn't.Thats something we can't quantify, after all the biological digestion system is a wonderful thing, and I now know from watching the turner art prize that eating specific foods, letting biology take it's course and then regurgitating them on canvas makes striking colours and pictures. Would I calssify it as art, well thats another story .
Such segregation will eventually lead to purist rants, and people claiming they can quantify and classify art shudder.
Lets just all stop getting our panties in a bunch and calm down, lets get back to the main reason for being here art.
After all if you are more intrested in the technical side of it, there is a staggering array of much cheaper to run forums where you can discuss techniques till the cows come home.

Come on guys we are artists, lets make it about the art.

Message edited on: 04/01/2005 10:00

LOL you'd be suprised, go look at Jaguarwomans items in the store, what that woman can do with black and white clip-art will just make you fall to your knees and weep :) Pink

Just a small tip for people who want to make sure there textures are okay. I have just found a huge source of permission free resources. Go to Amazon and look up clip-art. They do these nifty permission free clipart collections, many on dics in a range of all the styles under the sun. I have bought about 20 different ones and intend to make brush sets, materials, patterns, decorations and web sets from them. Just an idea :)

I have a suggestion....:( It may not be a very populour one, but here goes... If you are really really dead set on having a pure render gallery, and I assume from the sheer magnitude of posts here that some people are of the opinion it would be a good thing. Why not start your own up, web pages are very easy to make, not as exspensive to run as the average 3D program. Chances are only then would you truly get such a seperated gallery. After all as someone has already mentioned postworking, and the plug-ins used for it make up a large part of renderositys revenue. And I can tell you now this site will not be cheap to run. On a side note, I am glad now to some extent that the poser gallery was not seperated as suggested here, as I for one wouldn't have bought the program in the first place. I was lured into getting Poser after seeing rogue-elements, toxic-angels, and ravnhearts lush images. I'm not a big fan of pure poser works as they don't conform to my idea of fantsy art. This is getting just a little too heated in places, and really at the end of the day unless you are so motivated for a pure poser or software gallery that you'd make your own, I can't understand why it matters so much that any artwork be seperated.

I think the problem with this debate really comes down to individual perception. Lets face it people are never gonna agree one way or another. The nice thing is it's such a perceptions and prefrences that keep all different types of artists inspired.

I myself don't necessarily get the purist argument, to me seems a tad close minded not to use all the tools at my disposal no matter what they are. And hey if my customers like enough of my stuff to hand over their hard earned pennies thats good too.

Me myself going by my particular buisiness couldn't sell a pure 3d rendered image to anyone, they just don't want them. I've found that realism just doesn't sell well, wether it's t shirts, mugs, mouse mats, web sites, or prints. So while some people can appreciate a pure 3d image, they don't necessarily want it to represnet their buisness, wear it, or hang it on their wall. Likewise even if it's a photo-manip I'm asked to do they want the pores, scars, spots and blemishs removed.
Peoples tastes vary I suppose.

I know it's already been stated on this argument that people don't understand why your would use poser and then paint over the top. For me this isn't strictly a hobby now, I am lucky enough to be ble to do my hobby now for a living. And if a customer wanted me to start from scratch with acrylics or watercolours to paint a person it would take me three times the time, and cost them three times the money.
Using a Poser figure and then painting over the top, knowing that the anatomy is right, and that it looks very professional is a tons quicker, and b for my customers tons cheaper. Also I think digital art looks better on web sets and layouts as a scan doesn't have the same vibrancy.

I suppose it depends on individual taste, I wish you luck in your render only gallery. I wonder if any of you have been asked to provide a pure rendered image over a postworked one. It would be an interesting comparision to know what the average non artistic joe soap thinks.

Pink edit: Gah, I can spell better than this honest, I just have PC head at the minute LOL

Message edited on: 03/31/2005 16:06

I've just bought (and paid for) the Eastern Jewels textures, by Ravnheart...sadly they do not seem to be available for download yet. Come on Daz get a ruddy shift on :), I am impatient to snag my purchases. Good luck to all

I have no problem with seperate galleries, if a piece of art is good, knowing how the person achieved the end result is not important. But I suppose if may be a good idea for people who get so bent out of shape about it. Pink

Wow Thanks to both Info Central for asking this question and Sam Therapy for such a helpful answer. I was using a godwaful background colour before just so I could make delete it without deleting parts of my figure. This is lots lots more useful thanks :) Pink

Have at it, guys and gals. Oh and, pretty please, let's keep it friendly, huh? Well you cn try, but ina forum with so many strong willed, passionate artist types it's not always possible. It's also very easy to misconstrue a comment on here as you can't read expressions, voice and generally body language. Some things come off blunter than they were intended. Right Postwork yes please, for no other reason than I detest the real look that creeps into textures these days. My standpoint being that if I wanted to do a photo manipulation I wouldn't have purchased poser in the first place. I think for me it's that I have a specific look I want to achieve think Boris Valejio and Julie Bell and it's a lot easier to do this with postwork. As this is what I'm asked to supply to my customers it's just a happy turn of chance that thats how I prefer to work. Plus I find that folding clothes and hair to me look a little better when hand painted :)... You will be pleased to know that no one lost any blood or was hurt in the making of this post Pink :)

If that is directed at me thats a bit of a generalised and damming comment, especially as I did not in anyway accuse you of a copyright crime.
You claimed quite wrongly that martian_manhunter was lying, yes you could possibly accuse him of grabbing the wrong end of the stick and battering you over the head with it, but not of out and out lying.
To tell you the truth you were not exactly clear and concise in your post so no you didn't say that it was okay to take anything off the net, neither did you explain fully what you actually may have meant. This give people the right to jump to large conclusions from very short heights, we are human, I'm certainly not a mind reader. It also gives you the right to reply in a hostile and insulting manner, life is like that.
"If you want to debate that subject with me, I can assure you you are stepping out of your weight class. Ask cooler. :O) "
Another large assumption, and so quickly on the heels of your retoric regarding our wrong assumptions.
I do apologise if you wrongly thought the above post was an accusation, I was merely clearing up your own wrong assumption that martian_manhunter had lied to you.

Pink

Edit sorry replace martian_manhunter, with randym77 see even I get it worng sometimes, but in such an argument isn't it a bugger LOL

Message edited on: 03/30/2005 18:41

Message edited on: 03/30/2005 18:42

You are lying and I resent the claim that finding textures on the internet is "swiping." You're calling me a thief and I won't tolerate it. He's not actually lying, if the texture is able to be used for commercial and personal use, then thats fine you're not breaking the rules. But for this to work you have to trust the person you're actually taking the texture from, if they have appropriated it from less than fair means and you use it and are found out...then you become liable. Much like recieving stolen goods, you didn't steal it but the fact you are in possesion makes you liable. Then again the choice is yours, if you are doing everything correctly and above board then you don't have anything to worry about. If not then soon you'll probably end up on the stiff end of a law suit. Plutom to offer an apology of sorts, it was not my intention to jump down you're throat, to you this is an innocent, curious question. Unfortunatley digital art no matter how it is achieved I find these days is constantly asked to justify it'self. Can you say sore point LOL. We are only human and even the most placid dog will eventually growl if you keep batting it over the end of the nose with a rolled up newspaper :) Pink

One often sees this same sort of thing in threads about the EVILS of postworking. Postworking -- it's horrible. Absolutely horrible. Any true artist would do everything in one program -- and in one program only. Otherwise, you're not pure. And you should be ostracized by all of your peers for perpetrating such impure practices. LOL, sorry I LOVE postworking, sure why would I want to wait godknows how many hours waiting for a complicated scene to render...to realise that it looks a little flat and needs some Va Va Voom... I'd much rather spend 40 minutes for an average render and turn it into something that sprakles with my trusty tablet and adobe :). XENOPHONZ I gather you have had trouble at the hands of such purists too. If so let me extend my warm and deepest sympathies. Truth be told I wonder often why take such an interest in us humble supposed bad artists in the first place.

or possibly not as good of an artist, like the results you achieve are nothing to do with you... I get that a lot from friends and family :(, used to upset me a bit... Not anymore when I actually sat one of them down in front of one of these programs and said go on then...lets see how easy it is...they ecame frustrated and angry. "If someone wants to build all of their own models, and draw up all of their own textures -- then that's wonderful." lets remember though a true purist would expect you to code the programs before hand too, after all otherwise we have come full circle surely. Or is it a vicious circle LOL. After all a large amount of credit must go to the actual applications themselves. :) If you can achieve fabulous results, they are still valid regardless of the techniques, tools, programs, paper, pencil, camera used to achieve them :)

Okay, the figures may not be as beautiful as those purchased, but they are yours-you did it and you can give yourself credit for it. Surely credit is due for the finished article anyway, for the time, composition, postwork, artistic flair...surely these count as well. Was Van Gogh or Picasso any less fulfilled with their work because they didn't make the brushes, canvas, or paints themselves maybe they did. As far as I am aware photographers are not required to manafacture their own cameras as carpenters aren't asked why they don't make their own tools. Incidentally I do make my own textures if there is something I need for a picture that isn't on the market..not got to objects yet as I usually render my figures bald and naked as I like to paint a fair amount 2D. I don't consider the fact that I didn't program adobe photoshop 7 to lessen my achievement either. Surley where, how and why you got the tools is less important than the finshed product :)