or possibly not as good of an artist, like the results you achieve are nothing to do with you... I get that a lot from friends and family :(, used to upset me a bit... Not anymore when I actually sat one of them down in front of one of these programs and said go on then...lets see how easy it is...they ecame frustrated and angry. "If someone wants to build all of their own models, and draw up all of their own textures -- then that's wonderful." lets remember though a true purist would expect you to code the programs before hand too, after all otherwise we have come full circle surely. Or is it a vicious circle LOL. After all a large amount of credit must go to the actual applications themselves. :) If you can achieve fabulous results, they are still valid regardless of the techniques, tools, programs, paper, pencil, camera used to achieve them :)

Pakled, I think you're doing it the hard way. Just use an image you can find in a google search or any number of free tilable textures available on the web.

He may be doing it the hard way, but he's also doing it the LEGAL way. You'll probably get away with swiping textures off the Web if you're only making images for fun. But if you have any hope of going pro - selling your art - do not get in the habit of taking textures off other people's Web sites. Even if they are offered as free tilable textures, be careful. A lot of these sites have swiped the textures from some other site - even off software CDs - and are generously giving away something that is not theirs to give.

Plutom, I think after you've used Poser awhile, you'll understand why people buy stuff. I think you overestimate what can be done with texturing and such, and eventually, you will find it quite limiting. Texturing can turn a dress into a t-shirt or a skirt. It cannot turn a dress into a pair of boots.

or possibly not as good of an artist, like the results you achieve are nothing to do with you...

One often sees this same sort of thing in threads about the EVILS of postworking.

Postworking -- it's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

Any true artist would do everything in one program -- and in one program only.

Otherwise, you're not pure. And you should be ostracized by all of your peers for perpetrating such impure practices.

I think that Purists tend to be either very old or very young. Although they can be found at every stage of life.

One often sees this same sort of thing in threads about the EVILS of postworking. Postworking -- it's horrible. Absolutely horrible. Any true artist would do everything in one program -- and in one program only. Otherwise, you're not pure. And you should be ostracized by all of your peers for perpetrating such impure practices. LOL, sorry I LOVE postworking, sure why would I want to wait godknows how many hours waiting for a complicated scene to render...to realise that it looks a little flat and needs some Va Va Voom... I'd much rather spend 40 minutes for an average render and turn it into something that sprakles with my trusty tablet and adobe :). XENOPHONZ I gather you have had trouble at the hands of such purists too. If so let me extend my warm and deepest sympathies. Truth be told I wonder often why take such an interest in us humble supposed bad artists in the first place.

>at the very least it would give me something else to do other than press buttons. I think we're not constrained to do so, in fact I can leave nothing as-is ;o) But if I have the possibilitie to get a good morph/texture for an affordable price I'll take it - and alter it. I think everybody has a talent for some things. I nearly never use those lights that come with some packs, I don't like most of the expressions. So I make lights on my own but aplly the expression and play around with it. If someone else makes something it is never exactly the thing that I have in mind but You get better variety when you decide to use different models, and not just your own, because you can combine your own ideas with someone elses. That's the point! I've made different morphs on my own and they are my favorites, but they are basing on my own taste. They fit my own needs perfectly but sometimes not the need of a customer who wants an image for commercial purpose. I love mixing and matching - and most of all I love using a character absolutely different to what the developer had obviously in mind while creating it ;o) It's a bit like cooking: I don't raise my own vegatables or spices, I buy them. But I'm cooking my own soup ;o) violating a CODE... I've heard of that, I've heard of "postwork is evil". Well, I think every kind of missionary behaviour is evil. It restricts development and fresh ideas. It is of interest if someone painted anything except Vicky or made all "pure poser", if he made things shown in the image by himself or bought everything. It is of interest because it shows the way an image is made and the abilities of a program. It's of interest because you can ask: How did you do that? It's not of interest for telling if something is art or not. Men had tried that before - and failed every time ;o)

XENOPHONZ I gather you have had trouble at the hands of such purists too.

Well....not really. At least not in the area of Art. On the Official Artistic Achievement Scale.....I've reached the coveted level of Muttering Hanger Around the Hole (MHAH).

But I do have strong attitudes in regards to individual choices.....and individual responsibilities for those choices.

When it comes to Art, it's about liberty. Not about what someone else thinks that I should be doing.

((This principle extends to many other areas of life, too.))

BTW -- lest anyone should get the wrong idea -- I am a right-winger. With libertarian leanings.

He may be doing it the hard way, but he's also doing it the LEGAL way. You'll probably get away with swiping textures off the Web if you're only making images for fun. But if you have any hope of going pro - selling your art - do not get in the habit of taking textures off other people's Web sites. You are lying and I resent the claim that finding textures on the internet is "swiping." You're calling me a thief and I won't tolerate it.

Plutom, I think if you re-read the various replies, you will see that those addressed to the "sarcastic" meaning of your post were in fact NOT addressed to YOUR post but to fls13's post. In your post, the way you ask your question and the comments you make about what we can make out of a texture... anyone could see you are a newbie. It is not so with the other message though. Sorry about this happening to you since you are new and couldn't know. Don't think bad of this community because of that: there is good and there is bad in all communities. So to reply seriously to YOUR question: it depends mostly on 2 things: 1) whether your fun is to render images or creating things to render images or to help other render images and 2) whether or not you can afford to buy all that stuff. I buy lots of stuff because I like to have lots of choice. What I like most in Poser is to try things on models like I used to do when a kid with paper dolls ;o) AND I like to create textures and little props and faces for characters to give away to those who might use them to create beautiful renders. France

fls13, the simple fact is that you are not within your rights to take just anything that's posted on the internet. It's OK to do so only if the person offering it is either the copyright owner (yes, most of it is covered by copyright), or if they are licensed by the owner to give it away.
Most of the textues I have were either made by me or are from purchased sets, or legitimate free downloads.

Message edited on: 03/30/2005 17:52

You are lying and I resent the claim that finding textures on the internet is "swiping." You're calling me a thief and I won't tolerate it. He's not actually lying, if the texture is able to be used for commercial and personal use, then thats fine you're not breaking the rules. But for this to work you have to trust the person you're actually taking the texture from, if they have appropriated it from less than fair means and you use it and are found out...then you become liable. Much like recieving stolen goods, you didn't steal it but the fact you are in possesion makes you liable. Then again the choice is yours, if you are doing everything correctly and above board then you don't have anything to worry about. If not then soon you'll probably end up on the stiff end of a law suit. Plutom to offer an apology of sorts, it was not my intention to jump down you're throat, to you this is an innocent, curious question. Unfortunatley digital art no matter how it is achieved I find these days is constantly asked to justify it'self. Can you say sore point LOL. We are only human and even the most placid dog will eventually growl if you keep batting it over the end of the nose with a rolled up newspaper :) Pink

Message #34: "Pakled, I think you're doing it the hard way. Just use an image you can find in a google search or any number of free tilable textures available on the web. " I think the reminder is that an image you find in a Google (or Yahoo or whatever search engine) is not necessarily available to be used as a texture. Some are copyrighted. Some are not. Most of us know that. Some do not. Many ignore the rights of others when it comes to copyright. It is one of those areas of high sensitivity. Expecially to those who have had their work stolen. Fortunately I've never been good enough to steal from but others, alas, are and have seen someone else take credit for their work, or have their work incorporated into someone else's packet and sold. In the long run, it is better to ask permission than to take without considering the consequences. Of course, no one here would do the latter.

Plutom, don't you love it when people fight in your thread? :) randym77 brings up a good point. Most of us have probably trolled the internet for stuff. But as stated above, you can't trust everyone, and there are a lot of people ripping things off. So it's not an insult, its a good warning! A lot of beginning artists don't know all the copyright laws and fair usage policies if you hang out here a lot, you pick it up.

What, exactly, am I lying about? Are you saying that it is okay to use any textures Google brings you?

Help me with my sucky reading comprehension skills. Just what did you mean by this:

Just use an image you can find in a google search or any number of free tilable textures available on the web.

Sure sounds like "swiping" to me. I'd welcome Cooler's input.

At the very least, that statement needs to be qualified, seeing as this is a newbie thread.

If that is directed at me thats a bit of a generalised and damming comment, especially as I did not in anyway accuse you of a copyright crime.
You claimed quite wrongly that martian_manhunter was lying, yes you could possibly accuse him of grabbing the wrong end of the stick and battering you over the head with it, but not of out and out lying.
To tell you the truth you were not exactly clear and concise in your post so no you didn't say that it was okay to take anything off the net, neither did you explain fully what you actually may have meant. This give people the right to jump to large conclusions from very short heights, we are human, I'm certainly not a mind reader. It also gives you the right to reply in a hostile and insulting manner, life is like that.
"If you want to debate that subject with me, I can assure you you are stepping out of your weight class. Ask cooler. :O) "
Another large assumption, and so quickly on the heels of your retoric regarding our wrong assumptions.
I do apologise if you wrongly thought the above post was an accusation, I was merely clearing up your own wrong assumption that martian_manhunter had lied to you.

Pink

Edit sorry replace martian_manhunter, with randym77 see even I get it worng sometimes, but in such an argument isn't it a bugger LOL

Message edited on: 03/30/2005 18:41

Message edited on: 03/30/2005 18:42

Get a digital camera, take your own pictures of whatever you need to for texturing purposes and be done with this pointless debate. If you don't have one, there are many legitimate sites offering free textures for all to use, and the copyright restrictions, generally "don't redistribute the textures as is, but you are free to use in your art work," are clearly spelled out. And yes, you can easily find these sites through Google.

Okay, that's fair enough. However, my warning stands. At least one of those sites offering "copyright free textures" turned out to have taken them from copyrighted software CDs.

ROFLMAO Ockham...yer showin' yer age now ...it's a perfect likeness...I love it ...grin

...there are many legitimate sites offering free textures for all to use,... That is true but it is also true that some of those supposedly "legitimate" sites are not that "legitimate" after all. And we've even seen cases of those "legitimate" sites selling texture resources for all to use where the textures you bought were not that "legitimate" either. IMO, if you can avoid this, play safe and use only texture resources you created yourself from scratch. fls13: I've read somewhere that even the pictures of textures you take with your camera might not be legal to use in texture creation for models... I do NOT know if this is correct or not, I just read this in a forum somewhere.

Aside from the legal issues being discussed here... I would like to "swipe" a remark I read earlier in this thread. Concerning the original debate, this says it all "It's a bit like cooking: I don't raise my own vegatables or spices, I buy them. But I'm cooking my own soup." That's cool!

Francemi: Don't believe everything you read about copywright, even from copyright attorneys, as they are representing their clients. Trust your heart, and if you are wrong you can fix the problem. Would you feel robbed if the same were done to you?

Fls -- ignoring attourneys and going directly to copyright law, Francemi is right -- it is, period, safer to always use stuff you create yourself. And, sometimes, something you take a picture of is not safe to use. If you take a picture of a particular swatch of fabric containing a design which is under copyright. anmd use that picture, you are in violation of the copyrights of the owner of that cloth pattern. It doesn't matter if you agree with the laws or not -- indeed, if you do not, then work to change them -- but they are the laws, and it is in your best interest to follow them until they are changed. The only time you would be safe doing so is if you did it for your own personal use and images that you never shared. Otherwise, you open yourself up to a potential risk.

Thanks ynsaen, that's what I meant about what I had read before but I didn't know how to say it exactly. ;o)

It's not about the tools, it's about the big "O". "OH! I could see what I had in my mind's eye!"

"If you take a picture of a particular swatch of fabric containing a design which is under copyright. anmd use that picture, you are in violation of the copyrights of the owner of that cloth pattern." I was wondering about that...but how do most people get real fabric textures then? Are there other ways to create realistic fabric? I can't think of any other way to achieve realism.

Economics...thats how I see it... I can make a chair...or a table, no big deal...I actually built myself a huge cd "book case" once...is the right word cd case?...I dont think so...its HUGE...what about making my own glassware? I even came close to make a samurai sword...the answer is...Im glad there are people doing all sorts of things for poser I can purchase for a very reasonable price "key words here merchants", so I dont have to spend ill precious time doing them. And then again these merchants good at doing their things feel compelled to do more things because people like me will enjoy their products and acquire them... Plus, there is the variety of every single merchants vision of something I might never even get close to, plus some of these peoples visions inspire me... Long live the poser merchants....

You can scan solid fabrics. You can make your own digital patterns. And you can scan patterns that that are old enough to be public domain.

But yeah, the fabric thing has been an issue of late. I've been buying digitally created tiles and laces, just to be safe.

Just a small tip for people who want to make sure there textures are okay. I have just found a huge source of permission free resources. Go to Amazon and look up clip-art. They do these nifty permission free clipart collections, many on dics in a range of all the styles under the sun. I have bought about 20 different ones and intend to make brush sets, materials, patterns, decorations and web sets from them. Just an idea :)

"They do these nifty permission free clipart collections, many on dics in a range of all the styles under the sun. I have bought about 20 different ones and intend to make brush sets, materials, patterns, decorations and web sets from them."

Just the word "clipart" makes me shudder, though. It's too bad about having to create your own patterns. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so the thought of having a computer randomly generate things is not my cup of tea...

Are there any really good pattern generators out there for Macs in the first place? I know Photoshop has one built in, but its not the greatest in my book.

LOL you'd be suprised, go look at Jaguarwomans items in the store, what that woman can do with black and white clip-art will just make you fall to your knees and weep :) Pink

Check out Spothmann's Antique Fabrics pack (in the MP). She owns a huge collection of antique fabrics, as well as sewing her own patterns (embroidery, beading, etc.). Her pack is all either patterns she's created herself, or scans of antique textiles from her collection.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so the thought of having a computer randomly generate things is not my cup of tea... You don't have to let the computer do it for you. You can do them manually: more work but the results are much better in most cases. ;o)