Attached Link: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,58219,00.html

Wired also has a story about a science fiction writer who is glad his novel is being freely downloaded. http://www.wired.com/news/culture/ 0,1284,57152,00.html. "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom, a science fiction tale that revolves around the employees of a dystopian Disney World sometime in the 22nd century, is writer Cory Doctorow's first published novel .... 'crossed the 10,000-download threshold at 8 a.m. this morning,' Doctorow said Thursday, 'which exceeds the initial print run for the book.'"

The only thing worse than being talked about is
not being talked about
-Oscar Wilde Yup..now where's my copy of Wired?..;) The bandwidth charges is one of the main reasons I haven't posted any of my models yet..;)

I recall, Stephen King's notion of e-books that people would voluntarily pay for went rather belly up as an idea (personally, I don't think the story of attacking plants was all that enticing since it sounded like a thread bare plot, but I'm not a King aficionado on my best day.) The majority of people don't pay for what they can get for free, as far as I can tell from my experience in the wonderful world of civil service, but they expect a lot for that nothing. I'm not sure how an author or a musician or artist can make a living when their creations are given away, though I seem to live in a society that encourages the practice of taking what isn't nailed down (speaking only for the culture of Southern California and no where else). It would be nice to be so self-sufficient that one didn't need to charge for creative works, but I wonder how valued the "freebies" are....just questions. I've no answers.

I can't help but wonder how many people who downloaded Fleishman's book will actually read it and how many downloaded it just because it was there and not "nailed down" as you put it. Still, as someone who has downloaded free creative work and then turned around to search out and buy the whole product, I think promotions like this can be absolutely great. Don't know about making the WHOLE work available, though. Maybe a chapter or few to tantalize. I HAVE refrained from buying unknown books online simply because I couldn't get my eyes on enough of the text to be fairly certain the book itself would be worth turning loose of the money. It sounds like Fleishman had some other less potentially expensive options, too, that he could have used. Lu

I think Fleishman would be the first to admit he made an error in judgment over his choice of making his book available. Stuff like that happens. He could have easily had no one download it...people are hard to predict (otherwise, we'd all be writing best sellers).

Yep. I think, actually, that he DID admit to an error in the article. (Didn't mean to sound judgemental about that--sorry.)

Nuance of tone is hard to achieve in threads. I have to admit I heisitate every time I post a story on the forum because the thought crossses my mind that someone else might pick it up, polish it up, and get published. Then, I say to myself, "be real," and go on with life.

About tone--yes. You almost have to know the people you're talking to, and while I can read everyone's back posts and get an idea of what you're all like and trust that I won't be "beat up" by you (so to speak), none of you have a clue what sort of raving lunatic I might be. I forget that. (Not very raving, in case you're wondering. And just faintly lunatic.) I have a friend who sent some stuff to a webzine a couple of years ago. He said they sent him a rejection notice, but then he started finding his writing on a few other websites elsewhere and assumes it was "shared" from his submission. Disquieting stuff. Most publishers wouldn't do that, though, I'd think. They'd be risking getting a bad reputation and losing worthwhile submissions. I struggle, too, sometimes with sharing my writing without having published it somewhere first. On the one hand, I want to write for the fun and joy of it alone. After all, that should be enough, shouldn't it? If one's a "true" writer? But then there's the blood, sweat and tears factor of having put all your effort and time into it and finally producing something you're proud of and risking someone else getting credit for it. Another thing I've wondered about regarding sharing stuff on message boards is that most publications want first rights to the pieces they publish. Some of them include first electronic rights. So if I've posted a piece on a message board for feedback, does that mean I've just disqualified the piece for submission to places that want first electronic rights? Lu

I doubt if a work draft on a forum counts as being published (though I could see a point in deleting an item from the forum once you have sold the final version). On the other hand, something you truly thought was publishable is something I would keep off the Internet. Yes, you do keep your copyright when you place something in the forum, but you do lose control of how someone else might decide to use it. I tend to share here (with two exceptions) what I write specifically to be shared on this forum with no expectation that it would be publishable. The two exceptions happen to be stories that started life as fan fiction and were, by definition, unpublishable anyway. I am not, however, the most knowledgeable person on this forum on copyright and such so someone else may have a different and more informed view.

Interesting reading.

I think it may count against you. After all, the first publishing rights means that the company is the first one to distribute your work. If you have it somewhere else people can access it first, for pay or not, it's already being distributed. I know for the Renderosity Writing contest, it stated specifically that the story could not have been published anywhere else, including web sites. I doubt publishers care if it's just a draft unless it is a very rough draft (story outline or something similar.) What might work if you're trying to promote your book via the Internet is to write short stories that are peripheral to the book. Perhaps a story set in the protagonist's youth, or a story about a legend that is briefly mentioned in the book. This gives people a taste of your writing without compromising your novel's publishing potential. The above is just an opinion. 4 out of 5 doctors recommend you take it with at least 3 grains of salt whenever encountered.

Wonderful idea about peripheral short stories! Yes. That would be great! Hook your readers with related tidbits and lure them into the bookstore! (Remind us to hire you as a marketing specialist.)

OK. I just realized I had a current Poet's Market downstairs and that it might have some specific answers. (:::feeling a bit foolish over asking in the first place, now that I realize the answer was in the house all along:::)

Here's what I'm finding:

"No previously published" work means if your work "appears anywhere in print for a public audience, it's considered 'previously' published. That includes magazines, anthologies, websites and online magazines, and even programs" (including church, weddings, etc.) This is what the Renderosity Writing contests specify, yes? And this is something you'll usually know before you submit your work.

"First rights" "means the [writer] offers the right to publish his/her work for the first time in any periodical. All other rights to the material remain with the [writer]." So we're talking paper print, here, yes?

"Electronic rights" "cover a broad range of electronic media, including online magazines, CD recordings of poetry readings [and one would assume prose readings as well], and CD-ROM editions of magazines."

"All rights" means you're turning it over to the publisher entirely. It isn't yours anymore.

So it looks like it might be ok to have stuff on a forum as long as the publisher didn't want electronic as well as first (or other) rights. Not that you'd likely want to put a whole book up or anything. :o

All this only assuming I've not misunderstood or missed something, of course. Entirely possible, if not probable.

Thanks for the feedback on this. Dialyn, I hope I didn't hijack your thread with that question.

Lu

Not hijacked at all...very interesting information. Thank you!!! :)

Seems to me, if you don't care about making any money from your writing, then posting it on the internet is certainly a cheaper option than a vanity print and a lot less embarrassing to tell people about. :-) I do feel sorry for the poor writer landed with such a massive bill. This whole thread has been fascinating, and I love Dialyns suggestion about peripheral stories as suitable posts. Now, if I just had a published (even finished would do!) novel to promote, I'd try it out. Shanna :-)

As much as I would like to take credit for a good idea, it was Crescent's suggestion to create peripheral stories. :)

Ooops :-) So it was. Shanna :-)

By the way, I don't consider self-publishing an embarressment. It is a time honored way of printing what a commerical publisher won't touch, and now I can see it has more potential than ever for giving more opportunities to struggling authors. The main problems I see with it is marketing (how do you get the word out) and editing (many wonderful writers are dreadful at self-editing), and money. Ah, money. Anyway, if you are going to confuse me with anyone, Crescent is a flattering choice. :)

I say embarrassing because I have met a few people who have got themselves a vanity print done, and they now park their cars in the street because the garage is full of unsold copies. One of my aunts, who (at the time) had a cookery programme on her local radio station decided to self publish her cookery book to go with the show. She still hasn't managed to get rid of more than a box full three or four years later. Just because you got it printed, doesn't mean anyone else would want to read it, or even stock it in their shop. I guess selling books to bookstores is as hard as selling your book to an agent in the first place. Shanna :-)

Of course that's a problem the publishers have too. They are betting that one author will sell while another one, which is why (in general) they like a stable of the tried and true rather than investing in untested new people. We had this dandy idea at the library (I don't get the blame for this one). We were going to hold a nutrition class which was going to be taught by someone supposedly famous in her field. Our director, who is a nitwit about money, bought a large number of this author's books under the theory that we could sell them to attendees of the lecture (who would get an autographed copy) and then the library would keep the profits. I bet you're ahead of me where this is going. Three people showed up for the lecture. No one bought a book. The author would not buy back the books (no fool she). It was a disaster. We ended up distributing the book to our branches and giving them away (yes, for free) to our Friends to sell at their booksales. They sold the books for 50 cents each and gave the proceeds back to us in the form of a donation.

Are these renderostity forums available to guests, or only to registered members? Because if they are only available to registered members, then, arguably, anything posted here is not "published", even electronicly. Requiring members to register is the most common way to get around the bugbear of "what exactly electronic rights consist of, and how do they compare to say, "first rights" because it is perfectly possible to have an electronic "periodical".