I would like to have some of your opinions. I m not critisizing anybody but I m following 1 years the evolution of poser and I m really disapointed in some points. I think Poser users (me as well) are not really 3D artist. Having a character like Victoria or Michael and buying clothes, hair, lights set, poses and then put it together in a scene and press a render is not something that we can be proud. I have seen many pictures in the Gallery and even my pictures with many comments and ranking. But why since most of the pictures are not from our own work, everything have been bought or found in the free stuff. Is it really that a 3D artist? Another thing that I was asking myself is why the Poser Market is so huge compared with other 3D softwares. The answer is sometimes so obvious, only poser user can buy because most of them have no idea on how to create a character or a prop. Again it s just what I m thinking, I don t want to judge anybody, I m not an anti poser guy but we have to be aware that when sometimes poeple are criticizing us they are not totaly wrong because the real 3D art is really hard to achieve in softwares such as Maya, 3D studio max, lightwave.... Why am I saying all that? It s because I have heard and read from poser users that poser software is the best and can do things that other softwares cannot do. But that s totaly wrong because without the 3D developer softwares that allows to make props or characters poser would not have achieved this reputation because most of the poser user do not really know the 3D art.

I agree with the base arguement you have presented here, but art isn't always about creating everything from scratch, it's more a personal representation of yourself through (usually) non verbal, visible means.

People who make sculptures from old cars or other objects are called artists and they don`t make the things either they just put them together like putting poser figures etc together to make a scene.

Hmmmm, yes, I agree, but isn't the compostition of a piece of work art. I mean you have to put it together, decide on what the right lighting will be which you have to adjust, same with shadowing, and coloring and changing of textures etc. I feel that the whole composition of the piece that you are doing is so independent and so artistic....just spend a day in the Poser gallery, and you will see so many and I often wonder, what was that artist thinging when they put this together, did they get the reaction from others that they expected.... I understand what you say, but I feel a true artist is so independent and so creative, with the tools we use here. Sharen

3D art is, essentially, any art created using a 3D tool. Poser is a tool, just like any of the rothers. Folks in Poser DO create their own stuff -- all the time. But Folks in Poser also realized something the "other" folks didn't -- this stuff can be packaged and sold just like any other commodity. The reason they don't sell it as much is because they don't want to. Doesn't make them better or worse. Just different. There are those who think for themselves in the other groups that know that Poser is a useful tool. They might not say a lot, but that's because they are busy working with it.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

well....if your just using poser itself and no compositing, etc. is involved, just "pure" poser content (i.e. wham...bam load a figure, hair, and all that good stuff), then i will have to say "hell no" you aint no artist! BUT... 1. if you use Poser with APS n doin composites then YES you are an aritst....this includes simple things like painting hair and stuff.... 2. If you use Poser and model even simple stuff like props in Carrara for use in Poser then YES you are an artist...... 3. if you use 3DS/Lightwave or other high end progs in conjunction with Poser (for use in Poser) then YES you are an artist.... pretty much any thing you do besides using Poser ONLY BY ITSELF (i.e. "poser purists") makes you an artist. with the number of poser users growing per month....and all the DAZ stuff being bought by many people per month....WHERE WILL THE ORIGINALITY COME FROM? the answer is in modeling your OWN stuff to make your pics/animation unique....

Image touched with any image editor after rendering is in the classification of 2D art my dear friends.. we work with a 3D tool as ynsaen said already so we are 3D artist... we create unique scenes and here no matter what you use.. as Sharen said.. look Sharen is 3D modeler and 3D artist.. 3d modeler create the models for the 3D artist that render it.. there are 2 different section.... Cath

_________________________________________________________

"Surrender to what it is - Let go of what was - Have faith in what will be "

well at first poser is a tool for any "artistic" behavior or creation, or any other uses in some extents,s tandardized characters and clothes, such as DAZ peoples, are becoming tools too in their way. what i think is that, if given same BASIC tools (same softwre, same 3d character and such) if someone HAS to provide efforts and thoughts into producing something out of those elemnets, and that another one using same tools can prodive something DIFFERENT from the first, then there is something they gave/injected in the process, something that was not inside the tools, somethign that came from them and that is unique. call it art or not, but as i could see, making "DECENT" poser pictures, with or without postworks, out of standardized figures, does not ONLY requires to push the "render" button. As a fact, there then must be something else involved.

it is a good argumetn you brought though but it was already discussed over and over, and even as a good argumetn it cannot stand against absurd/illogical/extreme parodic reasonning. I mean, photographs are viewed as artists, would they make a photo of a landscape, of a model, etc... They did not SHAPE the landscape or gave birth to the model themselves, so they used something they did not make themselves and that others can use all the same. So what makes he known and skilfull photographer in the beach next to me producing a picture that will be called art of the sea landscape and my camera only producing "holiday souvenirs" ? :) I lend him my camera and he switch with me, i still produce "holiday souvenirs" and he still produces "ART", out of same place/landscape. Poser is just a home photostudio :)

Cool, this hasn't come up in about a week...lol Marque

Poser is to the 3-D artist as the camera is to a professional photographer! Does that mean during the 10 years I spent as a professional photographer I never created one piece of art? My photographs were published in magazines, on posters, on T-shirts, and in concert programs. I reject your thought process and while I don't mean to be rude because you do have the right ro ask and think what you want, I find your argument wholly without merit. I also feel somewhat insulted at the notion that composition does not create art, to me composition is the cornerstone of art. Without composition you have only factual representation of a subject, there's no context to factual representation so there is no art. Hence the name Com--Pose--ition, I don't believe you have to create an object from nothing in order to be an artist, to me that's a modeler. Are some models artwork, yes, just as those who POSE the models and RENDER a photograph of that com-POSE-ition is an artist as well. Enough said, I hope!

Even if you did make your own characters, clothing, scenery textures, etc., you'd still have to put it all together to make "art." That's what the Poser artist does...puts it all together. I'd guess there are at least a few good modelers out there who can't do a decent picture. Is the person who makes the paint brush more of an artist than the person who uses it?

I have to disagree with your statement John I for one could not create the art I create without the use of such programs as Poser,Bryce PSP,Photoshop etc. Just because I don't model my own stuff doesn't mean I am not a artist in my own right. I can not get the hang of modeling so I use either free products or buy them for use in my art. I am a published artist and also have sold some of my art work at DragonCon a large convention of SciFi,Horror,and Fantasy Art Show that is country wide. So I don't agree with your statement that if we don't use modeling programs and such we aren't artist. Just my opinion. SndCastie

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven

According to the latest string theory all matter is supposedly 2 dimensional. So no. We can't call ourselves 3D artists.

I like Riddokun's argument about switching cameras. Art is what an artist creates. The tools are absolutely irrelevant to whether the product can be called art (or souvenir, promo image, cat-pan-liner). The ONLY thing which matters is the mind and intention of the artist. If it is original and comes from within the artist, it is art. End of argument. Carolly

Attached Link: http://rendervisions.com/modules.php?name=Gallery&file=search&search_user=geoegress

I know a lot of great modelers that can't make a simple line. And a lot of great artist who can't make a simple box with a tut.

...frankly, I can call myself anything I want. Some artist strung miles of cloth across the countryside and called it art. He said it was art, so it was art. It was enough of Art to be in Time and Newsweek. Was it good art? That's for each person to decide. If I do a naked dork on a black background with the default texture and lights, in the default pose, and print it - then it's art. I made a decision on what placement, lights, texture, and pose to use. Admittedly it wasn't anything creative, but I can still call it art, and myself an artist. Poser is no different from any other tool. A poser picture with only canned poses, textures, lighting, and figures is no different from a collage of photographs. It's the choices we make that give it the artistic feel. Originality? Define it for me. Are old master paintings of still lifes original? Not really. They're all bowls of fruit using a single media (oil usually). Boring! But beautiful. Now, as to quality. A single canned pose of a face with a texture and a single light can be beautiful. Some of the best art I've seen here has been face portraits of Posette or V2 with a free texture and a single light. Can a Poser render be beautiful. I think so. Review the gallery for the last week. You'll find dozens, many using only Poser and purchased or free products. Art is in the eye of the beholder, and an artist is anyone who calls him/herself one. This discussion surfaces every month or so. Go through the past threads for more discussion. After a while the "art" snobs get me down.

I guess this would be to say that the 'animators' in Finding Nemo, Shrek, and Final Fantasy are Not Artists...after all, they all didn't model the characters that they animated, the modelers did....right? I like the way Mec4D put it, and I agree that as soo as you touch it with a 2D app then it becomes '2D art' and no longer 100% '3D art'. The "two classifications" sounds like the strongest argument to me....IMO ...but then I'm just a techie who 'plays with computer dolls'

If I may add my 2 cents.... Take for instance a musical artist. Most of the current artists out in the world today do not make the own musical instruments, but they do create art. The Poser issue is the same analogy. I have not created the models that I use in my work, even though I am an accomplished modeller in other packages. I use a piece from here and there to create an artwork, much like a conductor at the symphony. Without that conductor or arranger, the other elements would be just that...single elements not working in harmony. So I guess what I'm trying to say is without the composer/conductor/arranger, they would be elements making noise without a melody and harmony. That is how I view my work within Poser...the comPOSER/conductor of the final 3D artwork. Thanks for the ear.

poser is to us 3d-artists as paint is to a painter. A painter doesn't (usually) make their own paint, but simply uses it to create what we call art, as we tend to use pre-made figures to create our art.

As soon I win the lottery maybe I can afford to be a "real" 3d artist.... Good lord..give it a rest. I make the best use of the tools I have.... Anyone here have the 10-40G to plop down on LW/3ds & Maya???? I know most so called professionals use all 3. It's all how you use the tools you have!!!! Look at the movie Shrek....Poser could have easliy been used to aid & assist in the making of this movie...if you were an expert that is. Which I am not. I have yet myself to become profient in modelling myself, there I buy what I can. How do think the BIG houses work!!! They pay someone to make the model, someone to texturize it and then the studio buys it, them someone else animates it. I see a lot of middlemen here, DON'T YOU???? Everyone has there own specialty. I have a sneaky suspicion this all goes back to all the nudes in the gallery....same ol...same ol. IMHO..instead of yakking about it do something about! Create something unique!!! I try to, and I do say TRY. Why don't you go look at other galleries if Poser upsets you so much. Many galleries here combine several packages together..ie Vue/Poser/Bryce etc... I've recently perused(sp?) the 3ds gallery & seen some of the people models that people have made & quite frankly it was not good. OTOH the "props" or architectual side of 3ds was Outstanding. So............We all end up buying someone else models & applying to a pic we derivie in our own minds..so it is art.

If the definition is creating from scratch, then where do you stop? I didn't make the models. I didn't program Lightwave. I didn't write the programming language. I didn't code the computer that wrote the programming language. I didn't build the chips that created the computer. I didn't mold the silicon that created the chips. I didn't create the silicon either, for that matter. I certainly didn't create the universe the atoms were found in...

I still consider myself an artist, even tho I'll never make a cent off my work. I CREATE, and that's all that really matters.

Hum....just wondering how many times this same subject has to be hashed out......been done before, being done now, and will probably be done in the future...damn, this gets old.

I agree Cherokee..but for some reason it still seems to get everyones nads in roar whenever it comes up...by the way I don't have nads LOL ;) You want to see worse crap said..go look in the 3ds forum..what's ironic..they are creating people models that can't even come close to Daz etc...so I guess they don't think that there models will soon be in our Poser inventory(if good enough) and raking in the cash from us NON ARTISTS. What a load of BS..since they are the ones creating stuff for all to use LOL BAH HUMBUG!!!!

Attached Link: http://www.christojeanneclaude.net/rfOld.html

"Some artist strung miles of cloth across the countryside and called it art. He said it was art, so it was art. It was enough of Art to be in Time and Newsweek. Was it good art?" It was exquisite art, incredibly beautiful, deeply moving. People who expressed cynicism and doubt about it were won over once it was constructed. People who'd never given a rat's hiney about art loved it. It opened minds, changed opinions, and brought people together who normally never would have met ... urban young people, old-fashioned ranchers and farmers, international art stars and suburban moms'n'pops. It was Christo's "Running Fence" in beautiful Sonoma and Marin Counties, California. It was great art, 20th century conceptual art if you insist, but truly a great work of creativity and inspiration. :-)

hm. I think the base arguement is a good thought, but I do not agree. 3D art = is not inventing the tools. it is what you make of it. You could have thousands of freebies and commercial products on your harddrive without being able to create something good. I mean who did invent the brush? It was not Salvador Dalor Yves Tanguy. Who did invent canvas? They didn`t. But they used it to make their visions come real. We all use our fantasy and imagination to create great scenes. The Poser props are just props until you as a user put them into a different context and make them important to the whole scene. Thats what art means to me. I have no idea if you understand what I mean, I just woke up and am actually not capable to use english language as a communication tool. so long Praada/Paradogma

Where's the "beating a dead horse" animation? It's long past due! ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

LOLOL..yeah it is! For someone that doesn't want to judge anybody you sure have made alot of judements... I agree Cherokee...will it ever end.. Those that really want the answer to this question would read the archives on the subject rather than start yet another endless, mindless thread....I think some (as in the real world) just like to stir sh*T.....

yes, the topic is brought in various angles but very often... I personnaly call us (toward mostpeople) the "render button" pushers ! Join us !

As someone said above it all comes down to compostion. If thats bad it doesn't matter what medium your creating your art in, it will be bad. So lets stop worrying about what others think and concentrate on making good art.

If a max user creates yet another vista of transparent balls on a checkered background and theres nobody around to see it is it still art?

Expert in computer code including, but not limited to, BTW; IIRC; IMHO; LMAO; BRB; OIC; ROFL; TTYL. Black belt in Google-fu.

 

:D

"If a max user creates yet another vista of transparent balls on a checkered background and theres nobody around to see it is it still art?" BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Don't forget the obligatory dolphin!

Why must this come up every other month. The answer is really simple. Are you making 3D art? Yes, therefore you are a 3D artist. Argument over. There are obviously varying degrees of skill involved.. But that is the same for ALL art. Some people paint objects, or form objects from clay, or create 3D objects on a computer to make a piece of art. Some people photograph existing objects or render existing 3D objects to make a piece of art. They are all artists, but the argument always comes up. The painter says you are not an artist because a computer or camera does the work, and not your hand and brush. The sculpter says you are not an artist because a computer formed the shapes, not your hands and tools. A 3D modeler says you are not an artist because someone else created the objects and you just stuck them together for a render. In the end it doesnt matter. They all created a piece of art.

Hey! That horse aint dead yet! It's still moving, WHACK it some more!!! ;p

If you have to start a thread about it, you're not an artist.

All settled now? Good. Now this thread can die happy and fulfilled.

I consider myself a 2D illustrator, and a graphic/web designer. I manipulate 3D objects to get 2D pictures. My clients could not give less of a damn whether or not I do my own textures, model my own figures and props, which graphic editing program I use. And you know what? I don't care, either. People get so damned hung up on the word "artist" or "3D" or whatever that they have to get all bent out of shape with definitions and titles. You are who you are, we are who we are, we do what we do. Why is it so important to label everything all the time? I don't know why I keep commenting in these threads. They're pretty much pointless, anyway. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

The obvious answer is : Yes, Poser users are artists. Since Poser is a 3D tool then : Yes, Poser users are 3D artists. But see it doesn't really end with a yes or no in my mind. I LOVE some of the work in the Poser community, and some of the people here are incredibly talented... but most of it I am simply not at all impressed with because of how cookie cutter it all is. When I see a great Poser image I am impressed... but when I see a truly awesome image by someone I know has also modeled the primary meshes themselves and doen the textures on there own? I am much, much more impressed. Thats just life. Now, as far as commercial art goes it's a different game - if the client pays you for it then its perfect :)

I am simply not at all impressed with because of how cookie cutter it all is. Nor am I. But you know what? Absolutely ALL genres have "cookie cutter" work. It happens in all visual arts, in web design, in floral design, in clothing design, in writing, in any sort of creative field or endeavor you can think of. The simple fact is that 90% of everything is crap. Best thing you can do is seek out the 10% that isn't. ;-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

In this case the means justify the end results... Bonni is absolutly corect... if it's a cool image, who cares how you got there...........

www.bclaytonphoto.com

bclaytonphoto on Facebook

Of course it's dead. :) It's just being whumped so hard and repeatedly that it's twitching.

"We had spaghetti at our house three times last week..." Lucy VanPelt S.

Thanks for all your opinions, but some of you thinks that I m judging but don t forget that I use Poser in 90% of my works so I don t have any reasons to do that for bad purpose. But I have a similar question that may you try to understand my way of thinking!! Who is the real artist? The one who is drawing a picture from scratch or the one who is taking different parts of other pictures then paste it and showing it as its own work ??

Both of them are real artists. Although the second person needs to be careful of copyright issues ;-) Collage is a recognised art form, no? What's important is trying to say something that hasn't been said before, or to say it in a new way. We all get sick of the endless repetition of big-breasted Vickis in temples with swords, staring cross-eyed at something, limbs all askew and floating a foot off the ground. Would those pictures really have more merit if the "artist" had made the sword himself in Wings3D?

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"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=kawecki

I have the domain of the three stages: - I put some ready model and figure, I pick some pose from my pose library and adjust a little or nothing, I pick some camera position, the default lights or some others and adjust them or not, then click the render button and the picture is done. Am I an artist? - I create the models, I use Poser, a text editor, 3dsmax, Rhino and other softwares. Am I an artist? - I create rendering engines and modellers, many models are created by my own tools. Am I an artist? - I don't use postwork because I am lazy. Am I an artist? But there is something more....., many people do the same thing, put a nude Vicky in a temple with a sword, but some person's Vicky is not the same, she is the same Daz model, the same texture, the same sword, she is nude too, but look different, why?????, she tell something that doesn't tell the other Vicky, why ????? Why Michangelo is different to other people, he use the same brushes, the same canvas, the same paints, why ????

Stupidity also evolves!

I think I have understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. The important is not what and how you are doing this but what you fell anf want to show.

That same old dead horse animation ... that is SO self-referential ....

...I want a pink pony... ...we need a pink pony... Is it art though?

The answer to this ongoing riddle is NO, buying software does not make you an artist, Here in the poser community maybe there are 10 TRUE artists, the rest of us(including myself) are "people that bought software that makes pics"

Everyone here and at every other "art" site that boasts about "3d art" should get that thought out of their heads...unless they are doing animations or movies...those are 3d art and artists. When you use a 3d graphics program and put something together in that program, it's 3d. Once that 3d image is rendered and it's a flat surface, it's no longer 3d...it's 2d, you can't move around the image and see all sides. In reality, we may render in 3d but the end results are 2d images...which makes us "2d artists"...the exception are the animators and movie makers who are doing true 3d.

Dirk are you saying that those 10 people programmed their own software?????

"Dirk are you saying that those 10 people programmed their own software?????" Beating that dead horse again....actually, there ain't nothing left to beat.

Not beating the horse any more , just swatting at the flies on the rotting carcus!

NO.....the 10 people take what they created, embellish upon it, and make it a true work of art...click, click, click, click render, save and post does not make you an artist..if you get 47 comments on a pic that took 10 minutes to create, that doesn't make you an artist either. Now beat that dead horse

LOL @ d-larsen....is that what that thing is? I really couldn't tell anymore.

I got me a big stick now Im doing some wacking!!!!!! Ok lets put this another way, what is art? What is not art? What defines something as art? At what point does a stack of cans suddenly transform into art and at what point is it just a stack of cans?

I'm going back in to the lab and see what's on the slab!

Dirk, maybe YOU take only 10 minutes to setup a render.. without loading props, background, hair or anything, just using 1 figure, morphs and lights, I'll take a hour or two sometimes. Add in props, background compositing, various photoshop techniques, I'll take 4 hours easy on a picture. Longest time I took, was 2 days. Now is that art, or not? And if it IS then length of work time defines art? I don't think so. So what do you call people who reproduce oversized product labels, like Andy Warhol? You cannot deny that he was a very famous artist, (Keeping in mind that it's not if YOU liked his art or not.) If HIS stuff is art, then why is POSER stuff not art? From Webster online: ART: the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

"Longest time I took, was 2 days." That ain't nothing, some of my still lifes take months to get it all together. The least time I took on one of those was about 2 weeks. Oh, and by the way, Dirk doesn't do any image in 10 minutes. Everything he has done has taken a couple of days as I've gotten emails showing where he was on completion an image.

"Ok lets put this another way, what is art? What is not art?" How WE define our art doesn't matter..and definately not some dictionary definition, etc....art is defined by who is viewing it and what THEY think of it. Bury that horse now and be done with it.

Gotta say it Who cares!!!!!! Whether we are artists or not, doesn't matter, we make some damn fine pictures between us all and give us and other people lots of pleasure. Others make money from those pictures or from providing us with more items to make pictures. If you're happy with what you end up with at the end of the day, doesn't matter what you're called. Best wishes Jody

well... "some" folks make fine pictures. and lot more people call themselves poser "artists." probably the only thing missing in poser art is real critique. people can call themselves artists. that's fair. but being able to stand up to rigourous review is the only valid final determinant - sofa art, "elvis on velvet," and chia pets not withstanding.... and sometimes that takes time. consider the "novelist." there are quite a few folks who are in the midst of writing "novels." will they become "novelists?" when? and isn't that partially a function of those that review the "novel" - editors, publishers, and readers? christo is a fine example. will his work stand up to the test of time? certainly, he stands up to critical academic review. part of the the "problem" is that poser (and 3D in general)is a "hybrid" tool - utilising 3d notions to create 2d images. hence, what "metrics" are used to gauge the "quality" of the image? what technique? cinematic? photographic? drawing? painting? sculpture? theatrical? at least, that seems to be part of the "problem."

How long does it take a photographer to take a photo? And does he have to build the landscape himself? If anyone says that a photo can't be a work of art because all the photographer did was buy a camera and press a button after squinting through the lens for a few minutes, then frankly, they don't know what they are talking about. As for this 2D-3D thing, you need to go to the sculptor for "real" 3D stuff. But we know very well what is meant by 3D computer art. No need to split hairs.

I do see a difference between a rendered image and an aesthetic image.

Some rendered pictures are as good as modern art at least and some might say better... Some renders dont use much imagine, though and these are the kind that wouldnt be called art.

Ok all this is getting us no where and has been said over and over again. Art is in the eye of the beholder not how you do it lets just go on with our art and stop beating the horse. :O)

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven

art is created by someone who takes the tools they have, and makes art with it. Owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter, but it can sway arguments with those who disagree..;)
I think folks are confusing the tools with the end result. Artists have taken a box of crayons and made good art with it..everything was already packaged in the box, but it's what you did with them that's art, or not.
I've seen good and bad Poser stuff, and most of it's done with the same tools and models..I made a pic or two with models I've made, but I'd hardly call myself an artist..;)
(loud agreement, shouts of 'hear, hear'..;)
What makes an artist is training, an inner vision that you translate to whatever medium you're working in..my inner vision has pictures every bit as good as the best Poser pics out there, it's just translating that image to the screen that doesn't work..;)
I wouldn't worry about it, there's plenty of room on the site for hobbyists, artists, and all those in-betweeners..'sides, it's only the high-end-package users who trot this out, anyway..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

When I painted in oils & acrylics I never made the brushes,or gathered the pigments for paints. I didn't harvest the wood to make the stretcher bars, nor did I weave the canvas. I believe you get my gest. I believe I am every bit, and as much an artist now as I was then. :-)

I didn't bother to read anything but the first message in this thread (we have these threads about once every 2-3 weeks), so here's my .02 reply to the original message... - If I'm the head of the modeling dept at GameCoX and looking to hire someone to create new 3D models for my company, I want to know how good a '3D Modeller' they are. - If I'm the head of the marketing dept and our models happen to be Poser compatible, and am looking for someone to render some ads, then I might be interested in how well they know and can use Poser. - If I'm head of the Advertising dept at J.C. Pennys and need to contract out some work but don't really care HOW they came up with whatever image they did, then... well, it doesn't matter to me HOW they came up with whatever images they did, as long as it fits the job and if it can be done on time (one great benifit of Poser is all the pre-made content available.. can work wonders for meeting tight deadlines). ...the problem with your original statement/question is that you seem to lump everyone into '3D Artist'. The people who mostly complain about Poser the loudest have thier own definitions of that term (that suits them, of course), but more often really means '3D Modeller/Artist'. Can Poser be used to 'create beautiful 3D art'? Absolutely. It's just not a great modelling tool.

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

(hit the Post button too soon)... Can Poser be used to 'create beautiful 3D art'? Absolutely. It's just not a great modelling tool If you create beautiful 3D art using Poser, does that make you a great '3D Artist'? That depends on how you define '3D Artist', but it probably makes you a great Poser artist in any case. If you create beutiful 3D art by starting with a bland Poser image and do most of the work in PhotoShop, does that make you a great '3D Artist'? Probably not (again, depending on the definition), but it doesn't mean the resulting image is any less a work of art.

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

well hopefully i am glad i never dare to call myself artist, i already have enough difficulties makign peopel understand that, aside from using many other's people works/items/products, i still have my .02 of time and skills thrown into the process. i rather like referring to myself as a "magic render button" pusher :)

Oh, no......not this topic again............

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

someone please call the NYPD ASPCA animal cops!!!! theres some serious horse beating goin on here! shame...shame......beating a helpless horse!

Hi Mom!

i am so late on this one but..... poser users use bought stuff to better them selves, but there are those out there that use just a base model, and do there wonderful magic to make an image there own, with out the use of bought stuff, and sometimes it does help, like if you where doing a painting on canvas, youd have to buy the canvas,paints, easel (or what ever is usufull) other wise how are you going to paint! you have to buy the stuff in order to do that, or if you are lucky enough to make you own paints, canvas etc, then you are among the privaged few! like on here, there are that privaliged few who dont use a hell of a lot of bought stuff, but there own imagintation! i on the other hand buy stuff, but some of the time i dont use it, but wish i could be among those few who dont really need them! anyhoo, enough of my waffle! ttfn!

In the words of DarkStarRising:
"Sadness within sadness,
Darkness within darkness,
a shadow of a form lays upon the floor,
looking at herself
looking at her own shadows of loneliness"

John, both are the real artists. Earlier in this thread, texmax said that poser is to 3d, like paint is to a painter, but that's not true. Poser is to 3D as a camera is to a photographer. Paint in itself is nothing, it has no form or shape until put on the canvas. 3d models have shape and are already elements when put into the scene. I tend to look at poser as art direction in film. One takes props, people, lighting, etc, and puts them together to portray the mood that the audience is meant to see. Does this mean that these people are not artists? You don't think Peter Jackson of Lord of the Rings fame isn't an artist that is creating a vision of Rivendell? There are people who will always judge art by how long it takes, how it was done, etc, but to the end viewer, there is no difference. The picture either touches them or it doesn't. As artists ourselves, we tend to dwell on technical skill as a measure, but in the real world, there is far less of that. When I look at a piece, I look simply at it's content, not how the artist got there or what they used. You don't trash a director of a film because Pauly Shore was in it. Er, bad example, but you know what I mean. :)

ShadowWind

well put ShadowWind well put!

In the words of DarkStarRising:
"Sadness within sadness,
Darkness within darkness,
a shadow of a form lays upon the floor,
looking at herself
looking at her own shadows of loneliness"

From what you are saying John I am not a real artist. I paint using oils on canvas but I don't weave my own canvas, I mean how much time do you think I have. I also don't make my own paints, although I can, I just mix the paints I have to get the tones I require and those tones are all mine 'cos no one else ever mixed those paints to get that particular tone before. For me this equates quite well with using Poser, I buy models and textures, even poses, but most of the time I pose the figures myself, I make my own textures for the clothes the figures wear. I arrange all the figures and props as I would if I had actual objects and people to paint and create a scene hopefully unlike any other that has been made before. It is the thought that goes into the creation of a scene that makes it art not the tools used and as far as I have seen there are very few individual models that I would call art in the true sense of the word. Catlin

"For me this equates quite well with using Poser" And foir me it doesn't. When I am evaluating the skill of a 3D artist (as opposed to simply evaluating the art) I consider the meshes, textures and so on to be part of the work - not a simple and common tool for the work. Victoria is a much, much more substantial part of a image than the chemistry of paint is to a painting. The analogy in computer art to paint is photoshop and no one says your not an artist if you didn't write your own image editor. The real analogy is to the art of collage really. Collage IS art, and can be powerful art - but for me the more truly origional items there are the more likely the work will stand out. But hey, I use Poser all day so clearly this doesn't bother me any... I never claimed to be an artist anyway :)

Difference is what makes us all human and if you see things differently from me then that's fine. I don't agree with you and that's fine too. Catlin

I've never said that I am a 3d artist. But I have said that I am having fun! I don't actually care what anyone else says anymore - I like using Poser, I can create images that before I could only see in my head.