Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?Hot=Yes&Sectionid=2

Message edited on: 11/30/2004 23:30

I'm still getting over the fractal one. :)

If you ask me, the Hot 20 is just plain garbage. I would be embarassed to show anyone those images, if they were mine. It's no wonder people think Bryce is a kiddy program, with people like that ruining it's reputation. I hope to god that DAZ makes Bryce 6 so complex that none of those idiots can even start the program up. It really makes me angry, that some of us slave over our imagery and a few retarded people can click ten times and call it art. I hope somebody finds this message offensive, I honestly have never been more offended with 'Rosity than I am right now. Those pictures are garbage, and it's a tragedy that Renderosity as a community allows people to upload that crap. They made a Beginner section for a reason.

I actually posted a message to one of those artists in the iamge comments section of that image, then thought better of it, and sent them the message directly and deleted my comments. No sense shaming them publicly.

wonderful.... brilliant use of stock, pre-set textures.... how do they do it?... such originality... V :)

Shadow said it well, I couldn't agree more. I always assumed there should be at least SOME REALISM in surREALism.

I think that I was too agressive towards one of those posters, and I'll have to mail them back and apologize. But seriously, if you're a beginner, why would you want to STAY a beginner? And if you need help and have questions, why not ask someone? We all started somewhere. But my 5-year old son draws better pictures with CRAYONS than some of these people. Much, much better. If the post-ers were also 5, then things would be different...

The thing that blows me away though is that a couple of those really crap images have like 20 or 30 comments. I'm lucky if I get 10 sometimes on 120 viewings. Maybe I should try the ten click primitive using stock textures with stock sky on water.

Just as one artist has the right to want to improve their work, another artist certainly has the right to not want to improve their work. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. Art is about freedom. How dare any of you try to demand your own personal goals and halfwitted morals onto anyone else. Until the TOS here at renderosity states this is a professional artist only site, I think you all should really be a bit more tolerant... and spend less time whining and more time brycing.

I guess we have no objection to any artist wanting to stay at the same level and not go forward. But is it neccessary to get all your friends to vote said uninspiring images into the hot twenty. This should be a showcase for the best, not those that have the most friends. This is not whining, and not intolerance, just annoyance at people misusing the concept.

Aye, I was being more than a bit elitist. And considering NONE of my pictures will ever make it into the Hot 20, I guess I don't really care. But alas, Fuzzy. I wasn't talking about professionalism. I've never made a penny off of any of my images. I was only agreeing with Striving, and others. It's been an ongoing topic around here. The problem isn't so much what they produce, FuzzyShadows, it's that other people aren't honest in critiquing them. My problem is that people are LYING to other people, and I think that is wrong. I don't care how bad a picture is, lying to someone about the image will only convince them to produce more garbage, and to never progress. There are many, many different styles of Computer Generated Imagery. One thing that is NOT a style at all, but a complete lack of humanity, is the types of images that actually LOOK computer generated. Hell, these newer processors could nearly make some of the crap in the Hot 20 right now without any human intervention at all! The point of CGI isn't to let the computer do ALL the work, it's to use it as a tool or brush. It's to express one's self. The images and "style" we are talking about aren't even remotely art, because computers do not have emotions or the need to express them. The computer did all the work, and in some cases, there wasn't more work aside from three to ten quick clicks. I would go so far as to say it took more clicks to upload the images than it did to make them. So, Fuzzy, until the Renderosity banner at the top says, "Computer Generated Art Community Only - No Human Assisted Art Will Be Allowed", then I will continue to analyze and hold other artists to my human standards. Dali's remains are certainly not at rest, tonight...

I'm not sure why someone wouldn't want to improve his or her work. I guess if you get 50 comments and 20 votes, why bother? But it's the VOTING for this stuff I don't get. The hot20 should be nuked.

agreeing with Striving, and others. It's been an ongoing topic around here.<< When someone states his/her concerns in front of the lawmakers at a town meeting, he/she is a community leader. If that same person stands on a street corner and lectures, mostly likely they get labled a lunatic. My whole problem is the "on going" bitching about the hot20 here in the forum does no good. The only thing that comes of it is hurting artists feelings when they have not done anything wrong. If you don't like the rating system, send the complaints to the site people. They run the place and set the rating systems.

Jesus wept. If that alcove is architecture, what's the house that I posted here? Or the bridges people did for a challenge over in Rhino forum?

I have to agree with FuzzyShadows. People have different ideas about what constitutes 'art'. For instance, I happen to admire jocko's work, and his use of colour. I'm entitled to vote for him. He's not using Bryce in the same way as others here do, but there isn't a law about how you can use it.

On the topic at hand...If I don't like it, I don't look. My opinion: I'm not on this earth for a very long time and when I attempt some trade or hobby, I give it my all, and usually become a better than average participant. The time and effort you invest in a piece of artwork or project shows your passion and appreciation for the endeavor, and the same is evident for a passing fancy in which you slap something together quickly without putting in the effort. Who knows, maybe next week it'll be crochet for puppy sweaters. Now my main Bitch!! : I have no problems going to a town meeting and listening to a viable upstanding citizen of a COMMUNITY, regardless of their opinion, they've earned that right. Now Jon/Jane Doe, homeless, non-taxpaying, drifter walks into the COMMUNITY meeting to "How Dare" the participating members....guess what the validity of that voice is...Zero!!! "ICM"

I guess I have to agree with both sides of this discussion. After looking at the Hot20, I have to agree that there are some there that are so inferior a quality to the others that I'm amazed they even got posted as work...they're more like what I did when I was just experimenting with the program. But, I also know there's no accounting for some people's taste and beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. Taste in art is probably like taste in wine and most people would undoubtedly be appalled at my taste in wine. ;o) However, it does make me wonder if someone(s) didn't round up a bunch of their friends and say "I'll vote for your's if you'll vote for mine." Or worse, took the time to create multiple accounts and vote for themselves. ~shrug~ I'll just keep setting my own bar higher and assume these folks will have an empty victory is such is true.

I agree..with both sides too, but it is a bit galling that you can spend weeks or months perfecting an image that pushes Bryce to the limit and never get within sniffing distance of the Hot 20.

I've actually had two or three pictures where somebody said they voted, but they tend not to get many views or comments overall. I've yet to see or hear if anything made the hot 20. But guess what? I'm not sweating it. I'm here because there's still enough good stuff in the galleries to be worthwhile, and the dicussion groups here are more than enough to make up for any shortcomings otherwise. (It's you people that keep me coming back.)

Here we go again, if you don't like whats in the hot 20 don't look. sheesh. If I was paying money to be a member here, I could see feeling a bit jaded. But its free it has its down sides and its good sides. (anyone want hash..oh wait its rehash) :( why do we want to hurt someone's feelings.

If I ever make it into the Hot20, one of you please tell me! I make a point of not going there, so I have no idea whether I've been in.

I think of this whole site (and others) a bit like cable TV. A lot of repeats, rip offs and down right crap, but occasionally there is a gem which makes the pain worth going through. As for cloning, we all know that still goes on. Nothing you can do about it. "Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff" As for not being appreciated for your art, look at how many of the masters never sold a piece in their lifetime. To not be appreciated is the highest compliment you can get. ;-)

I agree with TheBryster in that, it is a dam shame when you can actually see somebody put tons of effort into a render and get little recognition or acknowledgement for it. If I leave a comment it's because I like to give some acknowledgement for their obvious hard work and effort. The day Bryce becomes like Poser where it's all pre-made, purchased textures, poses, lights etc is the day I'll give it up.

Wow, the top 20 has stuff that's excellent and stuff that's pure crap. How does that happen. Its like buying tickets to Elton John and finding out the opening band is a Senior citizen's all gazoo orchestra.

"The day Bryce becomes like Poser where it's all pre-made, purchased textures, poses, lights etc is the day I'll give it up." And it'll be the day when you're dead wrong. The only way I'm going to leave Bryce is to fall in love with another program. Or to think that Bryce cannot do anything that I want it to do. Not because there's a bunch of wankers who never had an original thought in their heads. Creating everything by your own self is not always the best or the easiest way to go about creating a picture. Sometimes you cannot do what you want. BTW, pog, okay, colour. But look at Lovers. For heaven's sake, he could have really done it better. For starters, he could have anti-aliased the picture. Then, you can only guess what he really intended cause he messed the placement. Then, are the figures around the same as the one on the floor? Shouldn't have they been more, well, shadowy? And I really find that introduction "Thanks for votes" grating. Arrogance squared.

How can I be dead wrong? LOL it's my personal opinion of my own preference??

One Mans Art is another mans trash, One mans trash is another mans Art. Art comes in meny forms, and if you dont believe that then your not and Artist imho. When someone stands up to put down another mans work, then the one screaming is the one with the problem, not the one that posted the work. If you take the time it takes to start a rant on someones work, then as i said, YOU are the one with issues, not the Artisit. Art is Art, even if I dont like it :) Peace All x

I just wrote a reply, and it didn't post! UGH!

Bottomline.. I blew a fuse when I posted this lastnight. But after visiting the h20 and seeing some of the images there (I personally wont call them art) I snapped!!!

This isn't sour grapes on my side. Heck, my last 2 images made the h20. This is about what a community that I am part of is picking to represent it. As ShadowDragonLord said above: "If you ask me, the Hot 20 is just plain garbage... It's no wonder people think Bryce is a kiddy program, with people like that ruining it's reputation."

To FuzzyShadows, If members here have the right, as you say, to remain stagnant in their talents. I too have the right (as well as all others) to voice my opinion about my community and the direction it is taking.

What really made me freak out is this growing trend around here to label everything that is just tossed together, lazy work, as Surrealism.

Click, apply bad mats to bad poser figures. Make them float off the ground. Click.. add some spheres, move them around. Render... Call it Surrealism! UGH, Give me a break! Really!

As much as Art is SUBJECTIVE, there is also an OBJECTIVE side to it. They teach Art Theory in college. There is some objective componants in art. Structure, composition, use of color pallets, etc. My thoughts are not that people dont have a right to like what they want to like. Mine is, that I think many voters here are clicking the vote more based on the names under the image rather than the image itself. Ruining what could be a really nice feature here. Turning it into a mess of sub-par images and wanna-be surrealism fakes.

I dont know how to fix it. I mentioned in the CC forum a few weeks back on a H20 topic that RR makes it so each artist can DISABLE the vote button when they upload their images. I know that wont make the H20 any better. But at least then I could choose to, or not to be a part of this sham of a voting system.

:::Stressed out!::::
-B

Geez,...........and I thought it was me ! I can see both sides of this argument though,............there are some pieces that I wonder about,..."How much effort did you put into this ? How long did it take ? And why did you do it in the first place ?" As to the question of "Bad Art" yeah, well, I sort of agree. There is some stuff posted that (I feel ) is not even fit for the "Beginners Gallery" much less the "Hot 20", in my opinion, absolute crap. But that's just my opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like a**holes,....everybody has one and everybody else's stinks. However, that having been said I'm sure people get tired of my little landscapes and animal pics. The only thing that gets my blood boiling is that some of this crapola gets fifty or so comments from people who I've certainly never seen any postings from,........and when you go to see who these people are and look at they're galleries, they've never posted anything ! I'm thinking about getting all my family members to join and cast votes for me whenever I post anything. In the end though, I guess it's like bad TV,...either don't look or change the channel. That's my story and I'm sticking to it !

Sackrat said "as we all know, opinions are like a**holes,....everybody has one and everybody else's stinks" LMAO so so true :) As far as who voters are, I been here for about 4 years and it was 1 year after being here that i even had the nerve to post and image, but i did vote on some others work, but its not very often i gave a vote. Whats funny is, i know alot of the people that do voting but for whatever reason i dont get any lol, but i do believe friends do vote for friends,"just not in my case lol". And when you ask yourself "Why" , its because there friends, and what can one do about that? Nothing :) Excellent work always shines out in the "trash" as some would say :) I am no "Artist", i am a wanabe in learning :) If i fail, then i fail, if i shine, then i shine, but no matter what it was fun "cough" hehe Striving said "As much as Art is SUBJECTIVE, there is also an OBJECTIVE side to it" Amen to that, thats why Art will be loved and hated long after we are gone :) Peace all x

maybe we need a Bryce 'pink pony' to put in the top 20..;)
Heck, 3 years here, 3 votes..no worries to me..;)
I actually took an art course in Collage, which taught me that art's whatever you wanna call it..bloody sheets, 400 lbs of chocolate, elephant...uh, byproducts..all have been displayed in tony galleries and been described as brilliant (go figure..;). There even used to be an artistic movement against 'mastery', which meant that being elitist or trying to improve yourself was self-defeating (I don't explain 'em, I just report 'em..;). Everyone goes through a beginner stage, does the cliches..the lucky ones move on..it's no different than when I was a kid playing in bands, and we'd have the one rich kid who got the Ludwig 7-piece drum set, or the Marshall stack, and couldn't play..;) maybe there should be a monument somewhere, reading thusly
to the Rendering program
which has brought bad artistry to the reach of millions..;)

I just stumbled over that "fractal" thing and had to leave a comment. For the first time on such "masterworks". When I read the existing comments I cannot understand what's going on in the mind of the people. A crap work and they write "Best picture ever", "Fantastic work" and "Wonderful colors". Are they all drunk or simply fake? J.

If they were drunk I could cut them some slack. Unfortunatly, I think its the dishonest side of things. I see the one you are speaking about. The sad thing is, one of the voters on that piece does some decent Poser work. :::Shaking head::: I just dont get it.

drawbridgep wrote: As for cloning, we all know that still goes on. Nothing you can do about it.<<< I remember that time you went to another site (i forgot the name of it) to post a work for critique. You posted a second work under a clone nick, and got busted right away. I guess they had anti clone measures in place. lol That was classic.

Well i think the whole voting/Ranking system is a sham anyway.I am by no means a master artist of Bryce or anyother CGI program buti make pictures that are pleasing to MY eye!i did nto see in the rules anywhere where it said i had to make my pictures to please the BIGHEAD attitude of others.I post WIP in the fourm and i try to improve my pix and usually they come out good and i still hardley get no rankings or barley evening viewings..but i still post them just the same when their done i like them and that is all that counts. Yeah the fractal thing in the hot 20 blows my mind too i seen it when it was in the gallery and shook my head but the way it works around here is who you know and not what you do that counts. What really ticked me off about this whole thing is this..I am a supervisior at my company and the first rule taught to me was never repremand an employee in the pressence of others,and the harsh comments made here regarding an indviduals work was totally out of place and uncalled for no matter what the work looked like.When after i looked at a few "choice" gallerys and was not impressed at all not even remotley..one guy had 2 of the same images in his gallery only diffrence was was the lighting in the picture(or the hue/Sat button photoshop). SO i geuss i got my rant in there take for what you will just my observation.... Xx__WARBLADE__xX

Just to be clear here, and to piggyback on WARBLADES post. I have nothing against any artist whose work is in the h20. Unless they are self-voting, then I think they're idoits (but thats another issue). My issue is with the boneheads that are voting for this stuff. The people that do not look through the galleries at all. But rather have certain artists on their Fav list and when they get the e-bot that one has uploaded a new pic, they log onto that image link, comment, vote, then leave the Bryce Gallery. Without ever really looking at any of the other images in the gallery. And only voting beause its a "friend" regaurdless of the art itself. For me, this isn't about bashing someones art, its about pointing out some really poor behaviours in peoples voting standards. -B

i agree,the voting sux thease people are voting images into the h20 that should not be there by no means,and thats unfair to everyone.I dont know what the solvency is for this but i wish it would come quick!

I think I might just have to add some more of the forum regulars to may favorite artist list so I can get a better idea of when y'all post. There are a number of folks here who regularly do better work than a lot of what gets into the hot 20. I may just have to do the same with artists whose work gets in there that IS worthy.

my my my what to say? thanks for all the know how on my work "lovers" . I do not get in the hot 20 all the time and I know a lot of people think my art is chao but I like it. my family do not come and vote on my art that would be unfair they say and it be true. I donot want them to do that. to me art is haveing fun and puting down what image you see in your head. Yes I can not do that to good at most the time but I do my best. I knew you be talking about the hot20 when I saw some post that did not help me understand how to do a better job. But thank you for putting it here. Yes the mats is odd but that is what most artists looking for something to catch some one eye. as for the anii what ever I did that and as for the ground I took that out there no ground. It my ideads I made what was in my head what is wrong with that? plus I put a custom sky in when you comment please tell them what is wrong and how to do better. in the forum I learn what I did wrong but i guess this is a good place too or just im me to give a bigger thing that I did wrong.

feel like Picasso[missed spelled sorry but he finded cublic] He got kick out of surreal so i guess I getting kick out of surreal too? what to do o no what tho do?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=745044&Start=19&Artist=MoonGoat&ByArtist=Yes

I am finishing an experiment at the moment on the effects of telling people I posted something. I know most of you saw my latest Bryce post because it probably got triple the viewings it would have if I didn't say anything about it. The same thing with the Terragen image I posted this morning only on a smaller scale because the Terragen community is not as large. Both of those got Excellent rankings which surprised me. I threw together both of those images. I know part of it is I am getting better but that can't be the whole story. The Excellent ranking under my thumbnails looks cool but what really matters to me is the comments. I will get comments from people I never heard of that say it is an incredible piece of art but the ones I really listen to are the ones from names I see here. If a no-name says an image is awesome I don't care. Some people say that about every image. But if one of you people says it is a good image I know it is a good image. When I got my first vote I thought I was going to the Hot 20 because I hardly ever see images with only a vote or two. It seems like that first vote gets the ball rolling and everybody starts voting. Just to warn you, the last phase of my experiment is beginning and it might not be pretty.

Moon, I am glad you linked to the image I posted that comment on, so people can see the context in which I posted that comment. I have no regrets about posting it. And in reality, what I said is true. Maybe 1 out of 20 images are rated below Excellent around here.

And you have every right to your opinion. But your statement above is exactly what is wrong with the h20. This "Tuff shit if friends vote them in" attitude is not only ruining the h20, it is inherantly dishonest to the community as a whole.

That is just my opinion, take it or leave it.
-B
PS, I think this comment on the same image linked above says it well... volpe9999 - When you compliment everyone, you compliment no one. That's one thing about the 'ratings' system people don't seem to understand.

Message edited on: 12/01/2004 21:24

just went to the "100 most veiwed" there bubba work there "Whispers of Autumn"and flak work "siege" and I looked for any of the forum regulars on the comments lines and lol and behold there none . Why is this guess you think babba and flak freinds put them they I guess? I did not see the forum regulars in the "top 100 most veiwed" why is this?

I know why they used poser in they bryce I forgot you have to just use bryce with bryce and do not use the import that bryce have. Im I right

Uh, look at "Siege" again.

I looked I did see Moongoat name and some others this time but did not see the ones that compain the most . If I missed your name I sorry. I think he did a super job and I know it took time on this . I looked in the all & all most 100 veiwed. and both of the artists I named is very good.

My user name used to be "ocddoug". That Bubba guy IS good, but the image was posted in 2000. Lot's of regulars weren't here then.

that true but moongoat and me was not here too. but we took the time to post a comment. I just doing what I do that all.

i think jockos pics are great at least he has an original style. If you mean the daz imported dragon and the the girl renders i agree whole heartedly that they dont belong in the top 20 just roling some counters isnt art well in the end i think art should be about freedom of expression so let every body do what he pleases and if that opsets you maybe its time for your meds. :P

Ohhh hell Jimi.. You are gonna have "The Crowd" after you now. I think alot of these people are like steamed rice.. they stick together. LOL.. Unbelievable.