1. No choice, as soon as your location is known, your currency gets choosen for you.

2. They do have the option, since they are companies with US offices. E-on has atmitted that if they wanted they can still charge us in dollars, they choose not to do so.

3. Since CL already has atmitted that it's not neccessary at all. FYI this isn't only dicussed at the forums here, but has been brought to the attention of both CL and E-On. After that CL has decided to lower the euro/uk pound price a little, E-On has chosen not too. Besides that a number European business magazines, 3D magazines and newspapers have looked into the issue too and concluded that this is plain old stealing. A number of them even adviced not to buy from US companies that use these kind of tactics. I do understand that ripping off doesn't sound to good, but as well as E-on as CL admit that it can be done differently but refuse to do so, so that's why I do believe the term is used correctly.

Message edited on: 02/21/2005 09:02

Perhaps you could provide links to the messages that provide evidence of your claims that CL are ripping you off?

Thank you for your informative post.

I still have various questions, and continuing to play the hypothetical advocate of the companies....I am not stating flatly that CL and E-On are NOT coming from pure greed...I am merely pointing out the possibility that there is a reason for their position.

1. in whatever forum or letter E-On stated they could charge in dollars but would refuse to, were there any extenuating circumstances you are not conveying? I find it hard to believe E-On came right out and said, in writing, "We admit we COULD offer dollars, there is nothing legally or economically in our way, but we simply chose not to and refuse to give you a reason, take it or leave it" leaving the self-indicated verdict of pure arrogant greed on the table. Can you say where E-On made this admission. I am not acusing you of lying, I just wish to look closely at the exchange of information.

2. a number European business magazines, 3D magazines and newspapers have looked into the issue too << specifically looked into the CL and E-On? Or into the situation in general? I am still attempting to get perspective here...how widespread or narrow is this, in other words.

I still have two general points to make....

1. even though a company COULD offer dollars and/or somehow charge the fluctuating exchange rate, please keep in mind that there very well can be costs, complications, compliance and hassle involved, not to mention conflicting and shifting government regulations that put them in a no-win situation. Some companies might be choosing to eat the costs of these problems as the price to pay to avoid reproaches such as those heard on this thread. Others might choose to "pad" to cover them. And yes, the transaction of a US company accepting payment in dollars from an EU citizen may or may not be as simple as it seems.. you and I do not see every wrinkle of legal exposure, regulation and compliance involved. Nor what costs the credit card company tacks on to the company.

2. the fluctuation currency angle...my point in the post just above how impractical this can be...and costly for the company.

::::: Opera :::::

Note: I may not be able to respond on this forum over the next 24 hours.

Message edited on: 02/21/2005 10:22

1. E-On did so in a number of posts on their forum.... here's one of the quotes: we have committed to keeping the exchange rate at 1 to 1 even if the exchange rate drops. Is Vue worth its cost in Euros? Only you can answer. But the fact that people in the US are paying less should not be part of the equation" 3) some of them in general, but 1 or 2 reffered to E-On directly. I do understand that this is a complicated issue and there are no easy answers to it, but the fact is that all of this came only when the euro became very valuable, before that all of us just paid in US dollars and none of these extra cost incurred at all (except shipping and taxes).

I've lived a long time in the US and by now I've been living for over 6yrs in Europe and you statement is totally totally incorrect.

Oh, really?

Hmmmm. Odd that I've heard nothing but the exact opposite from every European that I've ever worked with -- English, French, German, Belgian.....and others. I've worked with many.

Oh, well.....some matters aren't worth pursuing beyond the obvious.

Some simply refuse to see the obvious.

What was that about the price of petrol in Europe again........? Product transportation costs alone are driven up by such "minor" expenses. Message edited on: 02/21/2005 11:06

Well, there's a huge difference between some things and everything :-) Guess the discussion has taken long enough by now. I'm not going to get Poser 6 anymore, so I'll abstain from further comments P6 and on all of this.

Well, there's a huge difference between some things and everything :-)

True, but when it comes to matters of the economy -- nothing exists in a vacuum. Things are all tied together.

I.E. Higher energy costs/higher taxes (especially the taxes part) = higher transportation costs/higher production costs/higher business operating costs = higher software costs.

It's amazing how it works like that.

What do I pay when I order a product? Three things. 1) base software price - to be set by the sofware company 2) shipping - to be set by the shipping company 3) VAT and other taxes - to be set by the government. What are the complaints about? About point 1, the thing CL can do something about. None of us understands why non-US citizens should pay a higher base software price. Non-US citizens do understand that shipping will be somewhat costlier - this is reasonable. Non-US citizens do realize that VAT percentages vary, and that European VAT percentages often are much higher. I must admit that Curious Labs definitely is not the worst of the bunch. Apple and Adobe are: the base price of an entry level Dual G5 was $1,899 in the US and 2,399 in the Netherlands - of course, taxes not included. This is the money Apple receives. At the moment of writing, the exchange rate is more or less 1.00=$1.25, so Apple receives almost $3000 for an entry level Dual G5 in the Netherlands, $1100 more than in the US. This simple calculation again does not include shipping costs and taxes. Needless to say, Apple will never get any business from me. The issue with CL is less dramatic, but non-US citizens are still being overcharged. It is basically wrong.

VAT taxes add to the overall cost of doing business.

Therefore, things end up costing more across the board.

Including software.

The "wrong" part comes in with the extra costs of doing business in certain areas......but that goes on to other hotly-debated (thread-locking) matters............

Sorry Xenophonz, I don't get it. How does VAT affect the base software price? And why do many other companies set a simple price in dollars (e.g. Microsoft) so everyone pays the same base price? Please explain.

I can't speak for Microsoft in particular -- I am unfamiliar with their European policies. It's possible that Microsoft makes enough money already. They can afford to take a hit.

Interesting that Microsoft would be held up as an example of a "good guy". That's about the first time that I've ever seen that idea even vaguely hinted at..........but it's another issue.

However, I can speak in general economic terms.

It's so simple that it's difficult to see.

Higher taxes/higher energy costs/higher social costs all work together to contribute to causing the price of doing business to go up.

Generally speaking, companies need to make a profit in order to continue to operate.

So......in areas where it costs more for a private company to do business -- the company is forced to charge more for its products in order to stay afloat.

Once again:

When it comes to economic matters, there is an on-going domino effect. Raising the price of one thing (even apparently unrealated things) causes a ripple effect across the entire system.

It's singularly unsurprising that P6 costs more in Europe than it does in the US. The surprising part is that it still costs as little as it does.

That would be a good argument if there were an European CL branch producing Poser for Europeans, and a US CL branch producing Poser for Americans, and so on, and so on. This is not the case. I fail to see how CLs research, development and production costs relate to the location of their customers. After all, they've had to pay their staff, rent their office buildings, pay for the CDs and the boxes. Those prices are related to the location(s) of the CL corporation, not to the locations of their customers. There is absolutely no reason why CL should receive more money from a British customer than from a US customer: it should be the same for everyone. Again, please note that I am talking about the base product price, not about shipping/handling fees, trade barriers and all kinds of taxes. These are different for every country (and even state or city) and outside the influence of CL. By the way, MS does a lot of things wrong, but this is one of the things they do right. As do Amazon and Quantum Books and many other online shops.

about the base product price, not about shipping/handling fees, trade barriers and all kinds of taxes.

All of these factors add up. Even for an importer.

If the US rasied taxes on imported automobiles tomorrow, then the prices of imported automobiles would go up in the US.

Europe is an expensive place to do business. Until that fact changes, I would fully expect to continue to see higher prices for comparable items over there.

But there is no importer in this case here. No reseller to add to the costs. CL sends the package out, the customer pays the shipping/handling fees and the taxes. The variable costs are those of shipping and handling, not those of production! Lets take your example. If the US raised taxes on imported cars, what would happen? A Japanese car with a base price of $10,000 still would keep its base price of $10,000. The customer pays more due to the taxes. Maybe he'll even pay more due to increased shipping costs. But Nissan doesn't raise the base price to $11,000 for US customers! I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding. What I mean by base price is the amount of money that goes into CLs coffers. I'd like a good explanation why any company should make a higher net profit from non-US customers. I'd better ask CL themselves, I think. The same question has been asked at e-on, and their reply was (freely rephrased): "We know, we're overcharging non-US customers, and if you don't like it, stick it where the sun don't shine." I certainly hope CL has a better answer, at least the difference in base price is not as excessive as with Eon, Apple or Adobe...

XENOPHONZ, I really don't think you do understand the term base price....

The base price is the price before any tax, shipping cost regulation fees or whatever. Like svdl explained with a car.

Nissan is selling their cars at a base price of 1,000,000 yen in Japan. The base car is $10,000 in the US and 7780 euro or 5520 pound sterling (UK).

Imagine them doing a 1=1 :-) You're going to pay $1,000,000 for the car!!!!!

Where ever you go the base price is 1,000,000 yens, but the selling price is not the same everywhere, that really depends on fees, taxes, agreements, shipping to the country and so on. But those things will not change the base price of 1,000,000 yen at all! the base price is always a set price in the country where the product originates and that base price cannot be when converted into another currency be higher or lower. You've got to stick to the original currency and use that one as the reference point of pricing.

What you're constantly doing is adding all of the fees taxes and so on to the base price and you can't do that. That's the same as CL and E-On and a number of other companies do. That is the whole problem, the base price should be (converted from currency to currency) always be the same.

The base price of Poser 6 is at the moment $239 dollars. That is 186 euro. But CL is telling us the base price of Poser 6 is 219 dollars. That's quite a difference.

The 219 dollars is not the final price we pay, on top of that we do still pay the appropiate taxes and shipping and handling.

I'm not going over this issue again, but I will say this in closing.....

LETS ALL HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE JAPANESE WILL NEVER EVER ADOPT THE WICKED 1=1 CURRENCY EXCHANGE RATE OR EVEN THE 1=0.9 EXCHANGE RATE THAT CURIOUS LABS IS USING.

That would mean that a lot of the day to day things we use would be costing a fortune!

Message edited on: 02/21/2005 15:23

XENOPHONZ, I really don't think you do understand the term base price....

Oh......I understand the term, alright.

I'm simply stating that the "base price" of a given consumer good is directly affected by the operative tax rates.

For example:

Just to be simplistic -- unfortunately, it's a lot more complex than this in the real world -- it's going to cost a company more to set up shop and produce items in a country with -- say -- a 35% tax rate than it would for the same company to operate in a country with a 23% tax rate.

On top of which, the cost of the tax isn't absorbed by the company -- the cost of additional taxes is passed on to the consumer in the form of a higher base price. A "base price" which includes many, many hidden taxes.

Then, on top of the already increased base price, VAT taxes, sales taxes, tax taxes.....ad nauseum are piled onto the already inherently more expensive item.

Higher taxes aren't just something that get tacked onto an item after it rolls out of the factory door....like some sort of an afterthought. The higher tax rates affect the manufacturing/sales process at every step. Thus, the sacred "base price" is higher right out of the gate.

As for CL exporting to the EU, there are all kinds of costs for a company to do that, too.

I would be greatly surprised -- even with the small mark-up over US prices that CL has so graciously offered to its European customers -- if CL makes as much profit off of one copy of P6 sold in Europe as it does off of one copy of the same product when it's sold in the US. CL's profit is probably several percentage points less in Europe, even with the additional mark-up. Message edited on: 02/21/2005 22:56

Xenophonz, the production cost is the same for every single unit. The differences due to taxes, shipping, import fees only apply after the product leaves the production facility. Where a company sets up shop affects prices, but it affects prices for every one in the same way. Of course the company pays taxes. Of course the company pays the salaries of their staff. The hidden taxes you are talking about are applied to the company as a whole. You cannot convince me that those "hidden taxes" are higher if the product is to be sold to a non-US citizen; those taxes are applied to PRODUCTION, before it is known to what customer the unit is going to be sold. Those taxes are equal for every unit. Unless CL maintains storehouses on several continents (which I doubt, since it's not a sound business practice for a software company) resulting in different storage costs, there is absolutely no reason why non-US citizens should pay a higher base price. Every unit has the same cost to the company, so every customer should pay the same price.

I've forgotten one cost: the cost of currency conversion. That is why CL should use only one currency (dollars) and one price: the conversion costs are calculated by the credit card companies and paid by the customer. Easier on CL too, and fairer towards non-US customers.

The hidden taxes you are talking about are applied to the company as a whole.

Which makes the overall operation cost more -- which makes it more expensive to do business........which adds up to higher final product costs.

Oh, well.......I can see where this is headed.

You've got to change the system at its root. Otherwise, prices for items across the board -- not just for software -- will continue to be higher for our cousins in Europe.

About the only alternative way for the situation to change would be for the US to institute a bunch of socialist policies, beyond the socialism that we already "enjoy" over here. In other words, voluntarily pull our own competitive edge down. Commit economic seppekku.

Then we'd be paying a lot more for our gasoline and our software, too.

Hey, I'm not complaining here about the higher taxes we have to pay in Europe. That has nothing to do with CL (or any other company). Don't tell me that companies in the US don't get taxed. Less than in other countries, but they do get taxed. And don't tell me that companies in the US don't pay their employees. Doesn't matter where you set up shop, those costs exists. And they're different in every country. I won't say the US should use the same tax regime as Europe - in fact, the European countries all have different tax systems and tax rates. US tax laws are US business. I only say that the base price should be based on the production costs (yes, including the taxes that apply to the production facility, including the costs that go with maintaining a sales force), not on the nationality of the buyer. Additional costs that ARE related to nationality/location of the customer should be (and are) paid by the customer. This has nothing to do with "socialism." It has to do with free trade.

Anyone heard the saying........."thick as two short plank's". 8)

Well here one for you - I am in Australia and I wasn't given the option of ordering in $US - only the euro or pound. A difference of $AUD 34 before shipping. So I am getting hit with a tax that I am not subject to! So is the pricing fair? - think about it for a while this is not just an issue of EU countries.....

tastiger: you're exactly right. This is an issue of all non-US countries.

Well here is the official answer from CL - at long last:- "Dear Tastiger, We apologize for the problems you have been encountering. The reason you can not order threw the US site is because the shippers do not ship to Australia or New Zealand from the US. We do not have control over how the currency is used on the website . Thank you for contacting the online store's Customer Support. If you have any further questions or concerns, please "reply" to this e-mail." So looks like the US site can only ship to the US, rest of us are stuck with the international site and they can't spell either.