I don't envy the job of a mod here. It seems harder here than anywhere else ... part of that because of the TOS (It's what, 3 miles long now? LOL) and the other part because of the size of the membership base.

But the point I tried to make was finally realized. That we DO have differences of opinion as to what is right and wrong. The staff does, so it only stands to reason that the membership does as well.

That's why I think banning, and the procedures behind it, should be revisited by the mods and staff. Clearly, it seems Heart'Song didn't have malicious intent. At least, in trying to listen to both sides that is my impression. There may be more behind the scenes (ACK!!! meaning more may have been explained to her -- foot in mouth!), but it is not my place to know that. 8-)

Message edited on: 03/12/2005 12:26

Hello? Will someone please answer my questions? How can I abide by rules that even the MODS can't get straight? I just asked for clarification, which we still haven't received. No nudity, or no genitals showing? The TOS says no genitals displayed, but you are saying no nudity. Which are we to abide by? They are not the same thing in the English language. Nude means without clothing or covering on the body. Genitals are the organs of reproduction, NOT the lower half of the body. Please stick to dictionary definitions of words, at least. The TOS says "GENITALS DISPLAYED" So far, each one of you moderators has contradicted each other, and ALL of you contradict the TOS. And NONE of you have addressed the fact that I have had images removed because the committee didn't like the pants the model was wearing, or the way a clothed model's eyes looked!!!!!

Attached Link: http://rendervisions.com/modules.php?name=Gallery&file=details&image_id=4277&mode=search

SndCastle- Post 92 Respectfully- thats a load of crap. Ok- no bottom nudity- fine, legs or other items covering/hideing the bottom half- fine no sexually suggestive poses-fine Then why the hell just last week was this image threatened to be pulled by Karen. Add to it distance, prominent breast, and washed out coloring and lights, genitals hidden by the pose AND the leg crease covered by a plant. http://rendervisions.com/modules.php?name=Gallery&file=details&image_id=4277&mode=search You can not tell if she is 22, 18 or 16 It's just an OPINION thats gets it banned. And a limited one at that. Solid mesurable standards are do-able- breast size (A, B, C, DD), area covered by pubic hair are mesurable. Shoot, even the MP has a mesurable standard of 80% coverage of breast. Opinions are like assholes- everyone has one and most of them stink. Mods are NO different- each with there own political agendia. The failure isn't on the artist side- it's on the admins side.

"It is quite difficult to display genitalia without being nude." "You can, however, blatantly display the genitalia while having most of the rest of your body clothed" This sounds like a contradiction, no? And as Heart'Song said some of her pics were NOT showing genitalia, nudity or erotic stuff but get erased though...

I didn't mean that it is allowed. I meant that it was possible. Please don't twist my statements around. MorriganShadow

Another strange thought is that the mods can't agree on the tos but can agree that some pics are not folowing them... Quite bizarre, no?

MorriganShadow, "you can" means a lot of things...

I don't envy the mod's and admin's job either. I have nothing against them. They are trying to enforce the rules. We are here to keep them on their toes. Most artists are anarchists. IMO that's how you create good art. The more rules you make the more an artist is going to push the envelop. And of course this is a commercial site. JV

You are the person who answered my call when I wondered why I couldn't log into 'Rosity. You said I had violated child nudity rules, when I now find out there AREN'T any new child nudity rules in the TOS! Maybe you can explain why you said "When the TOS change was put in to place regarding child nudity " making me think the TOS had changed to include child nudity, when in fact it hadn't? The TOS says no displayed genitals. Two of the moderators say there is no child nudity, but the TOS doesn't say that. Two of the moderators say nudity is okay but not genitals. NOBODY says how we are supposed to know what kind of pants "call attention to the genitals" and what pants are okay. Nobody can explain to me how I am supposed to know what YOU or anybody else will consider to be a "sexy look" in someone's eyes. The mods are not helping me or anyone else learn how to abide by the TOS. If you are not just on a witch hunt, then why don't you make clear rules and help us understand them? If you have no evil intent, then surely that must be your goal? To help all members post successfully within the guidelines?

well said JV :)

"If you are not just on a witch hunt, then why don't you make clear rules and help us understand them? If you have no evil intent, then surely that must be your goal?" If A then B. Not B so not A. That is a valid reasonment.

"The failure isn't on the artist side- it's on the admins side."

I disagree with this statement. If a artist is told that a image of theirs breaks our TOS and they then continue to post images that are the same then it is their fault. We as the admins,Mods,&Coords here have a job to do. As stated earlier we do not just pull a image unless it is brought up first to be voted on. Everyone has their opinions. We do not like to pull images as we encourage the artist to post their work but we do have rules on this site and again I must say everyone signed that they agreed with these rules when they became a member here.

SndCastie

Message edited on: 03/12/2005 12:47

Please come to some concensus among yourselves concerning what the rules of permissable gallery posts are. Please make sure these rules are clearly and concisely laid out in the TOS in a way that will NOT lead to subjective decision making on your part, or confusion on the part of posting members. Please define your terms and conditions using a standard English dictionary, not personal opinion. Please make announcements affecting the community or individual members of the community via email from admin@renderosity.com so that everyone will receive the information. Please apologize for the hurt and confusion you have caused by not following your own TOS. These are reasonable requests.

"These are reasonable requests."
Normally yes, I completely agree with you and I don't think being the only one.
But what is usually reasonable seems to be unrealistic here...

Sndcastie, imagine I tell you that you made something really seriously wrong. What would be your first reaction? (sending me to hell apart, I mean)
Wouldn't you simply ask why I tell you this?
And if I keep on saying you do something wrong without giving any further reason, would you be able to know why you did something wrong? Would you be able to do the correct adjustements? Well, I don't see how you could. Do you?

Message edited on: 03/12/2005 13:33

Well, this is an eloquent silence. One of the most obvious rule in fair communication is to give an answer. I'd like that mods gave one to Heart'Song finally! One hour is quite enough to type some words that could make sense for us, even if we appear like analphabets to you.

Jus' a thought..and an unofficial one at that.... Numerous sites may indeed use the exact same ToS but will individually come to varyin' conclusions about each piece brought to their attention, and if an image is infact reviewed and they find it acceptable its simply another case of opinion and interpretation which is of course subjective. I personally feel that while the ToS can appear less than specific at times this can be beneficial..how so? and how does an artist know whether they've broken the ToS? and why can't we have completely specific ToS set in stone? There are clear definitions of what is and isn't acceptable and some room either way to judge an image for what it is, if it's unacceptable the member is informed why its not acceptable and the image is changed or removed, and from this the artist knows that what they've done won't be accepted whether its in the ToS or not. I'm sure a ToS can be written coverin' exact specifics for everythin' faced thus far and coverin' a vast amount that is yet to come...but (gotta love the buts huh) what of the art that is creative and 'original'? how can a rule be written to stop a specific unless the writers of such a ToS have the monopoly on all new original possibilities of unacceptability? Simple...they can't, so the ToS would have to be constantly rewritten and missed or ignored by some members and those who already scream that their freedoms of expression are already bein' crushed will scream that little bit louder about how oppressive this site is...and will more than likely remain at this site rather than find a place they feel comfortable with jus' so they can continue to moan...some folks jus' like to moan :p Of course this isn't the only scenario but its one thats sat in my head right now. The way i see it is that if you find you've broken the ToS and it was grey area that got you there you don't get banned for that first offence, but you do get some reasonin' of why...if you take this reasonin', ignore it, and continue to post pretty much the same and you get slapped down whether its in the ToS or not then you really don't have much of an argument. This isn't towards any one person, jus' strikes me as common sense :) Not everybody will come out of any solution entirely happy, but we can all show respect while we work towards...no? ps don't flame me..its my birthday and i really don't wanna have to get moody :p Ever

I must say everyone signed that they agreed with these rules when they became a member here. Sndcastie, normally I would agree with this ... however, if rules change after they are agreed to, then the members have to be made aware of those changes, by some method that is better than what is currently being done. Perhaps one way of making members aware of changes in a TOS is to have a popup window appear when a TOS change is made, and a routine that recognizes when the member has closed the popup. That way, it won't come up again until additional changes are made. I'm not trying to cause problems, only trying to suggest solutions.

After 2 hours, I notice that Heart'Song still don't get any answer. I am sure this is much appreciated.

3 hours later, still nothing. How respectful. You see, Heart'Song? It happens exactly as I told you it would. Believe me: there's nothing good to await from here.

Olivier, We are taking care of things on our end. Answers may be forthcoming, however, you are only dragging this thread on for no reason. This is the weekend, and not all of our staff are even home, let alone online to do anything about it. Please show some restraint and patience. MorriganShadow Poser Coordinator

Patience? An answer "may" come? I am dragging this thread on? Did I break another mysterious tos? And for no reason? You mean that begging for an answer to an important question in this thread isn't a good enough reason? Why does it take so long? It did not took you much time to react at my post but you seem to avo answering her specific questions. Why? Why don't you answer her?

Because, as it states under my signature, I am a Coordinator. Most of our admin are not around right now, and one of our Mods is in the process of moving. As was stated earlier, all decisions are made by group consensus. That cannot happen without a group. I have already answered questions in this thread. It became apparent that neither my, nor SndCasties answers are good enough for you or Heart'Song. We cannot make people materialize out of thin air to answer questions for you. Again, please be patient. MorriganShadow Poser Coordinator

Hello, I have been away spending time with my child, I apologize for not being able to respond until now. It is the weekend and we have to have some real life time:) A child's bare breasts are allowed, but frontal viewing of the genital region is Not Allowed. Which means, if its a side view and the genital area is not seen at all, then this would be okay. But in HeartSong's images they were straight from the front even though the legs were closed you could still see the lower half with nothing covering the frontal area. We have followed are own TOS in this instance. As it clearly states "No depictions of young humanoid characters/children giving the appearance of being under the age of 18 Where Genitals are Displayed and/or.." If they are straight on from the front and of the whole body of the child, then that is showing the genital area. Thanks, Stacey Community Manager

ok Stacey- then explain why for the link in post 104. When I got that message from karen it was the straw that broke the camels back!!! Explain why it's been banned when it is well within your terms!!!

geoegress, Can you please IM me with the message from karen about the image in post 104? I am showing another image was removed for a different violation and an email being sent about a few others that we had concerned over but not the one titled "Forest-Fairy" you linked to in the post 104 and then you "requested" your entire gallery removed so I am a little confused. I would like to help you but I need to know a little more about this. Thanks Stacey

In french we call that "mauvaise foi". Translated word by word it gives "bad faith". I don't know if it has the same meaning... I'm not sure. As far as I know, Heart'Song told us you deleted some of her pic that were not fitting the description you give. About you specific pic, Georgress, I'm curious to know what kind of imaginary reason they'll invent. Anyway, if they find difficulties to imagine one, they'll probably ignore you.

full frontal nudity was the excuse. she did it all via IM, cause she knows I'd get em. not even a single email either (I just looked)

But it wasn't on the image linked in post #104 right? I see the IM she sent on your member record but that image wasn't mentioned this is why I am confused? Please IM me with the message you received from her on this image. Stacey

Hello again people. Olivier, it is not my problem if you feel like everything that the mods and coords say is directed to you. It is not also my problem if you feel I am insulting your intelligence in any way, nor our problem if you don't like our answers. Now if you were so kind to come up with better TOS for this site, or ideas of what you would think that would be suitable here then I am all eyes. Why are you still here anyway if Heart'Song isn't around since post 114? Anyway, I believe that Heart'Song is fully capable of solving her issues via IM with the moderator of choice. If nobody else is willing to add something useful to this thread I think it should stay like this. <---signature---> Free your Maya Opaque3D http://www.digital-opaque.net

I think this post has run it's course and we have tried to define the TOS in plain english. I am there for locking this thread. SndCastie Community Admin