Whether tis nobler in Poser to inject morphs via a pose, and suffer the slings and arrows of potential dely or freeze ups, or by taking arms against the fad continue to insert morphs directly into the clothing I make... My apologies to "The Bard" However a poll of opinion on this as to preference would be helpful. Also, how many really want/use morphs in clothing or are into default form or magnets to shape figure and clothing (like me)? Every on the quest to build a better mouse to trap. :O)

I suspect that the reason that injection morphs were invented was because the Millenium 3 figures had a lot of polygons, and it would have made for a very huge download to include the morphs in the CR2. As a result, a method had to be devised that would make it relatively easy for users to get the morphs separately, and then load them in relatively quickly, instead of having to load the morphs in by hand (a very time consuming process). If the polygon count of your clothing is fairly low, it's probably much easier for the user to have the morphs in the CR2 ... but that's just my opinion. Others' mileage may vary. 8-)

I'd personaly prefer a good solid base of the more generic morphs with the option to inject other morphs.

Okay, so I am going to round this off and call this as

2 in favor of morphs being in clothing over injected

@Tyger_purr - on the option to inject other morphs - what sort of morphs did you have in mind?

I'll pose another question to go along with the first I asked. Those of you who are familar with my clothing, know I tend to put a lot of morphs in to help make the clothing articulate. It is hard to make conforming clothing pose real-world and now that more and more users are going to Poser 5 and 6, is there more in favor of dynamic clothing to do this sort of thing over morphs. I mean, no point spending the extra time making dozens of morphs to pose the clothing if a person would rather have the clothing - say two versions, one conforming that just sort of fits to the character, but has limited articulation, and a dynamic version that has greater articulation due to the ability of the cloth room. Though I have tried to keep up, truth is for a year now, I have mostly been linger on the fringes and not been able to keep up with what folks are wanting and needing to see in the way of clothing. So let me know what you would like to see - as far as morphs go - for this thread. I still deal primarily with V3, but again I may be behind the times there too. Thanks. Rob

Perhaps i misunderstood. i am under the impression you are refering to morps to match the figures morphs i.e. muscular, young, ect. both full body and more targeted morphs in which case i believe you should have some of the "basics" like young and muscular and breast sizes and the less popular should be injection to keep from weighing down the file size (here i am refering to pz3 and cr2 size not the install zip). If you are refering to morph for effect such as open or loosen morphs i believe they should all be included unless you feel that they have limited application such as a morph to fit one specific pose. I'd also like to see morphs sorted and catagorized into groups in the figure (i dont think P4 or pp do this but i know it is in p5 and 6)

There are still a vast amount of Poser4 or Poser4 PP users. Also Daz|Studio-only users are jumping in left and right.

@Tyger_purr - yeah, I was not thinking. I tend to think of morphs in general because I use magnets more. I make morphs for my clothing packages, because magnets seem to scare many people.

The way I break morphs out is as either shape morphs or adjustment morphs. Shape morphs would be those morphs used to match the clothing to the shape of V3 (in my case since this is the figure I work most with). So, young, muscular, barbarian, breasts 1-8, etc. would fall in this category.

Adjustment morphs are those used to adjust the fit of the clothing, either to contend with minor poke thru issues - which hopefully you will rarely have to deal with on my stuff, especially on normal range poses - extreme poses, maybe a little - I spend a lot of time tweaking the jp settings trying to eliminate as much poke thru probs as I can.

Adjustment morphs are also used to help pose the clothings, such as open the front of a jacket, or drap a strap off the shoulder, etc. All my clothing has some of both of these, but my GR stuff has the most as it was meant to make P4 clothing as dynamic as possible - prior to the age of P5 and P6 cloth room I still find in many instances conforming clothing with adjustment morphs faster and easier to work with than dynamic cloth. However, you will almost always get more realistic clothing flow with the Cloth room.

@Petunia - so for Poser 4 and PP users (not had a time to learn much about DAZ Studio - but by your comment I take it does not do dynamic cloth?) Shape morphs and adjustment morphs in the clothing are wanted?

Sorry about the edit - failed to preview the post first, and made a number of typos!

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 15:48

@Petunia - so for Poser 4 and PP users (not had a time to learn much about DAZ Studio - but by your comment I take it does not do dynamic cloth?) Shape morphs and adjustment morphs in the clothing are wanted? Yes, that is it... P4, PP4 and DAZ|Studio all require the shape and adjust morphs. :)

Thanks :O)

So, if you have a preference, please be sure and share it. I would really like to make Poser content that people can use, not just spend a lot of time making stuff that is frustrating to the user. :O)

Shadownet: for clothing, morphs are probably the best way to go (for now). However, making clothing that is also "cloth-room compliant" (and stating that when distributing) might help in both categories..:-)

The V3/M3 (and later versions) with their INJ/REM stuff just get (IMHO) too bothersome to work with. Especially in P5/6, where the "Hidden" (or whatever it is) bit in the morph dials doen't work, so you have to trawl thru loads of "-" dials, trying to find the ones you've injected.

Of course, if for your clothing, there's only a few INJ/REM's, then by all means, go ahead.

Cheers,
Diolma
Edited to add: I LOVE the cloth room. I spend hours in there (including the exit/restarts it takes t0 keep Poser happy), just for fun...

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 17:59

Hi Diolma, thanks for the feedback. I have to admit, I enjoy the cloth room, when I have time. It is just amazing the kind of posing you can get. But it can be oh sooooooooo slow. :O) I have been experimenting with hybird conforming dynamic clothing. For the most part is is a prop, but because it loads as a figure, it is easier to apply morphs and textures to via a Pose (if you so desire). I also have found I can use morphs to sort or pre-pose the mesh to help speed up and control the results I get in the CR. The clothing figure need not be conforming, since you can parent it to any figure as you would prop clothing. Generally it is made to fit a certain figure shape by default, so conforming just makes it easier for that figure - but it can also be parented to other figures and reshaped to fit as prop clothing can. All in all, the CR is pretty neat. :O)

My eyes are tired so I am having trouble reading but morphs in clothing are good. Dynamic (in my experience) is bad .. Potential but I have never gotten it to work.

I like morphs in the cr2. Injection is nutty at times. :)

I would like both dynamic and morphing versions of same clothes. I would use morphs in the clothing for distant shots, and dynamic clothing for extreme close ups. Love esther

Well, looks like morphs in the clothing is winning out. :O) Also I am surprise, but pleased to see, that conforming clothing using adjustment morphs is still wanted and not bit the dust to dynamic clothing, though I know dynamic cloth has its advantages. As for morph injection...Petunia I could not have said it better. :O)

conforming clothing with adjutment morphs is very much quicker, well at least in my hands. Love esther PS so morph away

Your "ultra poseable" approach is a boon to a lot of users, those who don't use P5/6 and people who don't use the CR or find it too slow on their systems. So I'd say, load 'em up. Most clothing items aren't going to be that big and you can always use Morph Manager to remove any you don't use often. Injection might be good if there were groups of morphs that most people would use/not use but I kind of doubt that would be the case. If the item can fit different figures (hopefully it will) and there are distinct sets of morphs for V2, Posette, etc. then those might be good candidates for injection sets.

Hi lmckenzie, thanks for the input. So with new programs like Wardrobe Wizard coming out, do you think there is a big demand for making a clothing pack fit multiple figures?

For me to make a set like that, I would have to sale it for more than I would a set for a single figure. There is much more work involved. Each figure will need some custom morphs made. Plus, I can spend days tweaking jp settings on a clothing item, trying to get it fine tuned so it poses nicely. Each figure clothing item would requires the same.

In stead of selling it as one big package, I might decide to sell the sets individually, since some folks only want stuff for one figure, and do not want to have to pay more to get clothing for figure they rarely use. But here I run into another problem. If I try to sale the sets individually, is it not likely that many folks would buy one set for, say V3, then use Wardrobe Wizard and convert it to work on A3 and SP3 etc., rather than buy the same clothing sets made for them?
Maybe not everyone, but you would certainly see a loss in sales.

Truth is, it is getting harder and harder to make enough to compensate for the time spent. I do it mostly because I enjoy it, and I can use the little bit of money I make. But rarely do I make in sales anything near what I put into it, in hours spent on an item. There are a few artist here who seem to have a gift for picking the right trends, getting items out quickly, etc. And they do well. But many of us, are not that gifted. We uphold the fine time honored tradition of "starving artist" hehe.

Still, that is okay too, as I am glad to be able to share these things with folks. If I could truly afford to do so, I would give the stuff away. But real life is a demanding mistress! So every buck here and there helps. :O)

Thanks again for your comments.

Yes, I see the point regarding multiple figures. The wizard does also leave out P4 and DS users. The various hybrid figures do help to some extent.