I've been following a thread about someone who unexpectedly saw his own models in a magazine on the front cover of a book – when he had not sent them in himself to the mag (– they were freebies see, someone else had sent them), this thread devolved into this and that and included talk of changing other peoples stuff and then selling it...

Here's the thread address if anyone's interested:

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2645607

Now that bit about changing people's stuff interested me – I've never sold anything, neither my own stuff (can't figure out Renderosity's procedures for that – yes, have looked at the page about it – it's confusing) nor anyone else's.  Obviously I thought you just don't sell other people's things.  But it seems there's a bit of a grey area here – since – for instance – if you take a person's material and change it in the DTE it is thus no longer strictly the other person's material, but somehow yours. 

Okay, I can understand it if you've spent hours in the DTE changing things and then come up with something completely unrecognisable from the original – that's involved a lot of work and doesn’t look the same as the original – that's obviously yours now..... but just how MUCH work is needed to make it yours?  If there's any similarity does that negate hours of work and make it still theirs, not yours?  If you're clever at the DTE and need only spend a few minutes in there to utterly change a material, is it still yours?

I mean, if you start with a Bryce preset of a material that looks like lights in a tall building and change it, it will still look like lights in a tall building, since that what you wanted, so you can't make it unrecognisable – but is it yours?  Or Bryce's?

What if you don't change the material in the DTE but only in the Mat lab?  I mean, tweaking one setting does feel a bit... well "not quite cricket" kinda thing.  I mean okay to just use, but not to go out and sell, so how much tweaking/changing things would you say makes it "yours"?

This question applies broadly to all 3D things, materials and objects as well as skies but personally I'm thinking mostly materials/textures/DTE stuff.

P.S. this subject is not meant to start any wars, I just want to know people's opinions.  please don't use this thread as a War Office. :biggrin:

Oh No, Clark VS Apollo round 30!

just an aside note Fran (it was my thread that intrigued you) , if you have some stuff for the marketplace, but the procedures are too confusing, i would be more than happy to sell them for you through my storefront, it can be set so that you recieve the full payment. IM me if i can help.

Being legal does not mean that something is ethically or morally right.
The artistic community (as do all communities of any sort) has it's own set of ethics that extends beyond what you are legally allowed to do. If you cross that line, you may not face prosecution, but you can expect to be persecuted relentlessly, night and day and all the hours between.

As far as selling materials, It depends. I could hit the random button then turn up the reflection and metallicity 300 times, then package and sell them. For that matter, I could get a free tree generating program, load in the sample trees that were included for free with the free program, up the leaf count a tad, export the obj's and sell them. All perfectly legal, but I'd personally feel like the lowest piece of crap that ever turned on a computer, I mean really, how much integrity and self respect would you have to flush down the toilet to do something so basely immoral?
But then if AgentSmith were to release a material package, or Zhann, she has several material packages (which I highly recomend and are available at http://www.zhannsartwerx.com/ ) Then we'd know that they'd spent countless hours of effort and have applied their years of experience and skills to the creation of the content and we'd feel that they were entirely justified in charging for their time and effort.

I to have seen copies of materials ( or slightly changed materials ) sold or distributed under a new authors name or logo.

There are 2 or 3 versions of Clay's fire, that have been in free stuff ( here and there ).

I think for the most part it's a matter of a person ethics and morals, when it comes to something like Bryce materials.

It would be hard to prove that someone plagiarized another's material. But it's usually easy to see when someone copies

another's creation.

I have used others peoples materials as a guides to create new materials. But I do not take their material into the DTE and change it. I start from the ground up, I have a base material called default nothing. Which is just that, a material with all properties set to 0 or none.

Ok here is a little on this that i had given to me from another site on some skies a person was selling as their own but i could see that they were mostly bryce 5 skies tweaked.

After contacted someone from the site i was told that if a person spends 5 minutes at tweaking a sky then it is infact theirs to do with it whatever they please. Now the message i got for this was long and drawn out so i just cut it down for here and by the way this was last moth so i no longer have that reply.

Therefore i believe that this would also go for textures, if one spends 5 minutes or 5 hours tweaking a texture then infact it is theirs no matter who makes the original texture.

If a person modifies a model that someone else spends hours making and the one that modifies it in way that it no longer looks like the original model then infact it can be called their own but if they modify it and you can still distinctively pick out the original model then they can not state it is theirs without stating it was made by "Name of original modeller" but tweaked by the person using it. They however may not sell or give away that model since infact it is not really theirs  

Two totally different things CD.
Models and materials are two totally different things.

I'm not arguing copyright law. But no, you cannot 'modify' someone else’s geometry and give it away or sell it, unless you are using some extremely rare use of the word modify. If you mean deleting all but 2 or 3 verts and then going from there sure, but you can't load v3 into zbrush, sculpt a nice set of abs, then sell that model. You can distribute the modifications to the model, but not it, nor any derivative there of. That's what morphs are for.

Skies though... aren't anyone’s.

ok so i got side tracked a bit(happens with old age)..i'll sit back and keep quiet or better yet try and figure out why my computer reboots when i use bryce, D|S, Hexagon or anything that puts a load on it..

Tell ya this is killing me, try doing something in bryce or D|S and its as if my computer is saying "no way mate, you want to kill me" then it reboots

I'm so :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

Are you having overheating issues on your cpu or vid card, CD? The heavy rendering and opengl progs could do that.... and overheating tends to create random reboots (in my experience).

Not so long ago, my old internet pc was doing the random reboot and freeze thing until I shovelled some dust out of its cpu heat sink and fan. Runs reliably now.... most of the time... so it looks like it was an overheating issue (as caused by the dust restricting heat/air flow off the thing).

Okay all,

I've looked briefly at the replies so far, and I'm saving them since I should by now be driving down the motorway and I'll be offline until Monday.  Hopefully I can get back on by Monday!! :scared:

I'll thus reply more then.

rj001,

I haven't really got anything good enough to sell, mate.  That's one reason why I never got too upset by my inability to figure out Rosity's marketplace - I mean, I can't even figure out how to get the freebies on my website available on Rosity's freebies list - the page on it is just confusing.

Maybe one day....  but thanks for the offer, appreciate it!

P.S. Crazydawg, hope your computer doesn't melt while I'm away - good luck!

Quote - Are you having overheating issues on your cpu or vid card, CD? The heavy rendering and opengl progs could do that.... and overheating tends to create random reboots (in my experience).

Not so long ago, my old internet pc was doing the random reboot and freeze thing until I shovelled some dust out of its cpu heat sink and fan. Runs reliably now.... most of the time... so it looks like it was an overheating issue (as caused by the dust restricting heat/air flow off the thing).

Flak, I was looking at the issue of over heating with the vid card but i never really looked into it as my vid card isn't an onboard one but with you mentioning it again it makes me wonder. I thought about cpu over heating today as the computer rebooted withought me doing anything on it, i left it for an hour and when i came in to the room and grabbed my smokes the computer rebooted straight before my eyes.

I tell you its possessed.

@Fran i hope it doesn't as well

Legally speaking, unless you actually developed the mats, from SCRATCH, (that means starting all the little channels at '0') they are not yours. If you used anyone's mat and just tweaked it a little,the copyright still belongs to the ORIGINAL creator. Although I have seen Bryce preset mats passed off as original, they are not, and if you suspect someone of doing this please report it.

 Note:There are included in the DTE 'starting points' (i.e. clouds, rocks, etc) for creating mats, to use those you must make sure that the new mat in NO WAY resembles the 'base' mat(s) you started from, but like I stated above legally you would need to create them from scratch, to claim them as your copyrighted mats.

Rosity is very strict on this copyright thingy so be careful what you pass off as your own, as it can get you banned for life.....=(

BTW, the DTE is not as difficult as it may look to beginners, and once you get to know the settings, can be alot of fun, we've have one challenge in the DTE, looks like it's time for another, this means lots of free mats to share...=)

Just a thought....

Zhann

Bryce Forum Coordinator

Mugsey.... Zhann's a she.

Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn...

I have - and still make - public domain mats and models for BRYCE - they are hassle free and I won't "LORD OVER" you with them. IM me if anybody wants them. Use 'em to make money making images and media - I don't care, they are yours to do with as you please (PUBLIC PROPERTY)...

I not a jerk about my stuff - I'm generous, and in no way "SUE HAPPY". I believe in no - catch sharing and I practice what I preach.

ZHANN - I need a list of the file names for your presets so that I can go through my massive library and get rid of them - I don't want my life ruined over a dinky little preset.

Well, you finally caught the attention of the PTB.....=)

Mugsey, I also believe in no-catch sharing of my freebies, but I still respect the rights of others, includinbg any usage limits or restrictions on their freebies.

As copyright owner, they have the right to put whatever restrictions they want on them.

Yes they do - and I also respect copyrights (although sometimes I might screw up and post an image for just a laugh that I found on the net to parody - and forget myself).

Personally - I am a copyright holder. I only place somewhat strict restrictions on works that are designed for my own extensive projects. however I frequently contribute free things that either are devoid of restriction - or only carry the restriction that they cannot be resold in their native format or form. I have started whole websites devoted to free artist resources of my creation before.

I apologize to ZHANN for being a little terse with her - I sent her an IM explaining how I misunderstood her position, HOPEFULLY all is forgiven.

In NONE of my previous statements have I ever said that an artist does not have the right to place restrictions on their work - HOWEVER - I HAVE made the point that a few artists are a bit extremist when it comes to being protective, and some do use the copyright issue as a personal ego stroke - or to throw their weight around.

Copyrights are serious - and MUST be protected, but just as important is that the freedom and liberty to exchange ideas and concepts must be preserved as well.

Attached Link: A Few more Mats - (Fran's)

I've posted a new thread on my new mats, (see link above) and all those offered will be the ones I made from scratch.  Hey - look guys!  New Rust!!!

I may have had help occasionally here and there in how to make some parts of the textures/materials (some are just DTE, some are Image based textures, and some combine the two) but they are made from scratch, i.e. a blank DTE, a blank sheet in PhotoShop or an image I've taken with my own camera

I don't really get the whole "Give me credit!" thing when the products are sold.

If it's a freebie, then the person definitely deserves credit.

However, when they sell their product for $$$ with commercial use, then no one is entitled to get credit from anyone. Credit flew out the window when that money landed in your hand.

Besides, it's absolutely ridiculous to give credit in a lot of circumstances, especially for us who own thousands upon thousands of models, textures, etc. Even if we have the readme's, it's not worth the time because it could take HOURS to find the person, just to credit. For what? I just spent 1 hour of my life to credit someone I paid $20 to buy/use their model? That "credit" is essentially giving them $65, not $20, because my time is worth $55. If the model cost that much, I'd never have bought it.

Even in small projects, giving credit can be a daunting task. In huge projects? Massive ones? Credit would be ridiculous. "I'd like to give thanks to the following 3632 people..." Organizing and finding the information ALONE, or even TYPING the Credit txt, would be so significant of a time consumption that the price suddenly went from reasonable to ridiculous.

I really don't even have time to give credit to freebies, but I will if I have to (and remember to...and can find the readme...and don't lose the note I kept track of the credit list...and remember what I used and from who...) Although I don't use freebie stuff. I buy almost everything, and the sole fact it costs me thousands of dollars over time to buy all these different products, from hundreds of different artists, I really don't think anyone but me deserves the credit, as it's my investment, my hard work, my implementation, and what was once a 3D model and texture is now a piece of art, a game, a movie, or a picture--- which I created, and purchased the rights for. A bit irrelevant if I sell it or not.

Just my opinion. Anything I release as freebie, I don't care if I get credit or not. I gave it as a freebie because I want others to have it. If it's a product I'm selling, I don't care what they do with it-- as long as they don't resell it as their own work without any change. If they just alter the color and sell, that would be stealing because most of what I sell is grey, so that others can color it. However, I accept any loss from that "theft" as inevitable the moment I sell it. In the end, it's like piracy for movies, music, or games. You may have millions of pirated copies in the universe, but you still sold a lot, and most of the pirates wouldnt even have bought it anyways. You do lose some money, but who is to say you deserved it, when you already made thousands of sells?

However, any piracy of small business such as 3D artists, 2D artists, or small teams-- that is inexcusable and absolutely ridiculous. I wish laws against pirating small business (or solo business) was a heavier penalty than against multi-billion dollar companies who could care less about the loss. For them, even a million lost is nothing. For us, even a single sale is a big loss which can end up hurting us and our families.

I honestly don't care if Richie Rich loses $1 off a pirated song, even if it's a million times, since they already have more money than they could ever use. But for small businesses, a single dollar can result in food disappearing from our table. Huge difference.