This topic has been brought up in a few other threads thus far, but I would like to create a thread that generally is not in support of having our images tampered with and being forced to click an extra time to view the image.

With the scripting options posted in other threads, the site is fantastic as is and allows a user to revert to viewing images the old way - One click, one view. I don't have time to click multiple times to view images, and what's worse, I don't want my images anti-aliased, even the preview image. I really like my custom script that allows me to view the site as I feel comfortable with, and this doesn't affect anyone else but me. If you do decided to carry on with this ridiculous algorthm, then PLEASE make it an option to turn off as many users are happy with their custom scripts in functionality, and there will be ample support in the forums to assist those who want their desired customizations. I click on my thumbs in my gallery, the full sized posted image loads with all my information, stats, comments, and BAM...it's on! It's my home here, too, and that's the way I prefer to have it presented.  One click, one view, completely wholesome.

From a legal standpoint that has been brought up in other threads; Renderosity is run as a private entity and they have the right to operate the site as they see fit, and always have. The debate comes in when  they duplicate, alter, and publically post this preview image and thus fabricating what the artist intends on presenting to the end user. Especially when the artist does not condone this activity or want his or her works displayed in this fashion. Not only that, but it doesn't ensure the image will even be viewed in its' proper state.  If another user took my images, modified them, then decided to post it in their vision, no matter what the intention, there wouldn't be enough expletive language from my lungs to convey my expressiveness. I certainly wouldn't expect this activity to originate from the site.

I prefer options, as do many of us here, and not have to conform to an ideal of a handful of individuals that have a different outlook in how artwork should be presented. As it stands, with my custom script that I have put together from various sources here, the site is better than ever and I don't have to click 200% more to navigate the site in an effective and bandwith efficent manner.

All arguments aside, I do appreciate the thought and consideration that is going into the conversion of the site and to try to arrive at a happy medium to where most will be content. However, altering artwork is not the path to travel, and quite a few users will decide to travel a path which leads far away from this site. Something to indeed consider in the plethora of decisions which can be made to arrive at a logical conclusion. Nobody wants their artwork modified, especially by a cold and calculated generalized script that will most likely end up blurring large images, thus creating a facade that the artist most certainly didn't intend to present while uploading.

Please consider these thoughts carefully as I truly feel that giving the end-user the option of customization is ultimately the most prevailing way to travel to lead this site successfully.

I hate that preview image!i go to a handful of small sites that do preview images but it has never looked bad like this does..i dont understand why we are subject to seeing art in a less than desirable manner when that is what i thought the site was about..and i agree if someone else took my art and changed it and reposted it i would be upset and I am...I hope they are smart and change it back to how it was..and get rid of the report button that is just an insult...if you didnt like the moderaters sticking there noses in our stuff just wait till everyone sees they can be a moderator too.Hopefully other people will see how crappy things look and make a stink also..or i think alot of people will head for new ground..

Quote - From a legal standpoint that has been brought up in other threads; Renderosity is run as a private entity and they have the right to operate the site as they see fit, and always have. The debate comes in when  they duplicate, alter, and publically post this preview image and thus fabricating what the artist intends on presenting to the end user. Especially when the artist does not condone this activity or want his or her works displayed in this fashion. Not only that, but it doesn't ensure the image will even be viewed in its' proper state.

Well, all you have to do is provide a written contract signed by both you and Renderosity where Renderosity has agreed to display your work as you've originally intended.  Legally, you  haven't a leg to stand on, if this is what you're alluding to.  This site is 100% voluntary; you're free to post or not, and by posting here, you agree to accept whatever manner Renderosity chooses to display your work.  The bottom line is, if you don't like it, find another host.  "Condoning this activity" is not an issue here.  Your hands are tied.  Renderosity will display your work in whatever manner they see fit, unless you've contractually agreed otherwise.  Even an ambulance chaser will understand this.

I see where you're coming from, and I understand your frustration, but please don't dilute your grievance by sounding like a suicidal first-semester paralegal.

And, of course, this comment would come from someone with one image in their gallery who has been on this site for 9 days. I appreciate your humbling advice, but I mentioned that the legal concerns were addressed in other threads. I see nowhere in the TOS on this site where Renderosity has the unique right to mutilate, manipluate, edit, modify or change my posted artwork in any way, shape, or form. I suggest you read it, it's nowhere to be found in the text.

Posting art here is definitely voluntary, but altering copy protected works (that would be a © symbol in case you aren't informed) is not exactly legal, but the preface for the argument is in the fact of the preview image, not the original. Copyright law, however, does state; works of art are not to be duplicated, modified, and posted publically without the written consent of the author (except in the case of contests, promotions, CD magazine, or other promotional endeavors here on Renderosity). I signed up to this site about 1.5 years ago, but nowhere did I read where they can alter my work and post it publically except for promotional purposes. Does that mean I win a prize every time I post? Cough 

I feel completey compelled and enriched with newfound knowledge by your informational response, but I'm afraid it doesn't comply with the entire relative subject matter in which many staple members here are battling this very moment. I love your one beautiful image, it's absolutely gorgeous, and the 9 days you have been a member is fantastic, I wish you the best!

Unfortunately, many of us have been here for a considerable amount of time and have battled so many issues, it's incredibly exhausting to explain to anyone in any form of detail. This happens to be a milestone in the history of the site that we are trying to overcome; the results of this issue will determine the site population, ultimately. I, for one, am tired of trying to relay common sense regarding issues that really don't require much thought. So, yes, I suppose it is like law school then [sic].

I work way too hard on my posted images; some have taken me up to 6 weeks each by massive render times, tweaking, changing, editing, etc. I'll be damned if I see this work displayed at the lowest common denominator as possible. I guffaw at the troll here, but I must admit that it's definitely falling upon calloused eyes. If 20 more Renderosity "Super Stars" were to come in here and voice their strong opinions, I guarantee you we would not be chatting here but instead creating artwork in our spare time.

I'll be quite honest with you; if certain key members were to leave over these changes, I would follow suit. I'm afraid that it's only a matter of how many at this point. Be sympathic to the cause, appreciate the history some have had here, realize that sarcasm is great for galleries but doesn't work so well directly aimed at serious posts.

The only thing 'diluted' here is the logic in which we dwell, and this response is simply not helping, but thanks anyway. =)

The image resizing is something I detest indeed.

My images are large, usually 1600x1200px. Resized from 3200x2400 or 2400x1600 renders. 1600x1200 is the minimum size that preserves the details I painstakingly put in my 3D scene and material tweaking.

I would not have resized my work to 1600x1200 if not for the 512 Kbyte maximum image size. The details in my images look better when they are viewed at their full rendered resolution.

But I don't have a problem with the upload size limit. I am the one who prepares one of my images for display on 'rosity, and if one of my images cannot be resized to fit the 512 KB limit without loosing too much quality, I just don't. post it. It is not a problem since I am the one who decides over the image.

I do have a problem with Renderosity software deciding over how my images are to be presented. And resizing my images to a hardcoded 700px width ruins the quality IMO.

The resizing functionality is probably a tweaked version of the auto-generate thumbnail functionality. A functionality that the artist can choose to use or not to use: if the artist supplies a selfmade thumbnail, the thumbnail generation script is not called. Needless to say that I don't want to use the auto-generated thumbnails: too much detail would be lost. I pick an area of interest and make a thumbnail out of it.

Again, I am the one who decides over what the thumbnail is going to be. Not a script.

Things would have been entirely different if Renderosity had decided that the maximum image width would be 700px. Which is completely within their rights, they run the site, they make the rules.

But then the artists themselves would create their images to look as they want them at 700px width. Not a script.

I don't know about the legal aspects of the resizing, I'm not a copyright lawyer, not even an informed layman. But I do know that I do not want my images to be downsized and reduced in quality.

I sincerely hope that the Renderosity team will rethink this decision.

Awesome post, svdl, and I agree with you very much. The artists who will suffer the most are the ones who post at high resolution. It's basically about artistic respect, and that's what it is coming to these days. Is there such a thing? Oh, yes. Do I take your images and add some stuff, resize it and post it? I certainly do not. Why?

1.) It's out of artistic respect and I would be damaging my reptation in doing so.

2.) It's a copyright infringement, I am liable for messing with your artwork and can penalized by fines and jail time.

Now let's take what is happening on this site today and try to relate to these same items.

1.) Messing with our artwork for the means of a standardized web page scheme. Answer: Ummm no. Never been done before here and won't be much longer if  they want customers.

2.) Modifying our artwork which is © protected is a no-no. If  I can't post a ficticious image using     the Time magazine logo with the Troll beating George W. on the head with a stick for a  ficticious magazine cover, then my images should not be raped and ripped from my grasp for any reason.

I'm tired of the double standards here. It seems that those who post at high resolutions will suffer the most under this new rule, and it's offen that these images contain the most detail that viewers crave. Don't you DARE touch my galleries with this stupid algorthm, I will pull off this site faster than a 20 pound trout on my line. I will not only pull my work and persona from here, I will also advertise the nature of this activity to fellow artists whom have not posted here yet and direct them elsewhere. I am truly unhappy with the inconsideration that the admin is offering the users here, and I have heard the term 'the last straw' more than once withing three days.

So, let me embelish and reiterate what I just said here;

High resolution images, quality, details = not wanted here and are shunned upon. Treated as garbage and displayed as such.

Forced Standarization? Great for an operating system, but doesn't work for artists posting images on an art site. I love purple; how about I force you to eat purple eggs and bacon, purple bread and milk. You are also required to wear purple clothes in my presence and only purchase purple items. How is that for standardization? Yet, that is what the site is doing, basically.

Oh, oh. There is actually an OPTION to allow us to be individuals [scripts]. Oh, My GOD, we must ban that and have the peons conform for 2 people's visions of what what art and web design is all about. These said people don't post to this this site, therefore, I have no respect for what they want. Post images and daze me with your brilliance, shock me with your talent; just don't expect me to bow when you tell me the site is actually a communistic plague. I don't play that way, and neither do must of us here.

Sorry, but I'm about to toss about what I just wrote here, and goes against my OWN TOS. Not gonna do it, tolerate it, or suffer through that kind of artistic butchery, AND I agree wholeheartedly with Bill and svdl; this just can't happen. I am not a clown and won't be treated as such in any form. About 80% of the products used in my images are from here, but I can easily remedy this in a blink of an eye and get equal end results.

Force me to do something, and I'll be forced to leave everytime; just try me.

" ...who has been on this site for 9 days.."

huh?

answering Terradreamers post.....the rights these guys have to run there own private site is directly related to the market place getting lots of bussiness and without it and us they cant function...so even being a private owned place they need people to make it work and pay their bills.and personally i do think shardz is correct in his comment about copyrights..i called my brother in law a paralegal and asked him...his answer was to complicated to print here but he also agreed..but also said we are not being forced to post here and dont pay any fees(Directly)so then it becomes a matter of choice.and our choice directly effects the marketplace and the people who pay the bills.....and i just cant see steven or your art being butchered to fit in.....Bravo my friend.. if things dont change..i am with you..so were are you gonna post your wonderful artwork after rendo...?

I'm seriously thinking about either DreamslayerArtworks or Tapestry of Dreams. My work is probably too non-PG13 for DAZ or PoserPros. 3DCommune is also an option.

Not Renderotica. While their TOS would allow me to take things a little further than I can do here, too many of the images over there are sadistic in nature, something I can't abide.

I just have to check what the image dimensions/filesize limits are at those sites.

I'm not gone yet. And I seriously doubt if my leaving would have any impact. But the rather rash and thoughtless way Renderosity tends to implement changes is not beneficial to the fun I used to have here. If too much of the fun goes, I go too.

Okay, I decided to not post any comments about this in the forums for the whole day yesterday because it seemed, based on comments Stacey had made, that they were about ready to reverse course and drop this whole terrible resizing scheme. However, I did upload to the gallery a modified version of one of my earlier images which tried to demonstrate what's happening to gallery images now and explain what the issues are...all in the hope of bringing this problem to the attention of more members.

Well, today I have a lot more doubts about whether the admins actually are going to put an end to this resizing mess. They still seem stuck on looking at the whole situation backwards*..."this is the web design we have, now is there anything we can do within the constraints of the design to accomodate the outcry against the resizing."*

If this is really an art site, they have to turn that equation around and make the starting point "we must present the artwork as the artist created it" and modify the web design to make that the priority.

So now I'd like to ask other artists to post some images to the gallery like I tried to do which show what's going on and explain what's at stake. There are many, many people who never visit the forums and won't see what the issues are unless we bring the issues to them in the galleries. So many of you who are writing about this here in the forums are such amazing artists and you get hundreds & hundreds of views when you upload new images...please take the message out to the galleries and ask the members to let the admins know how they feel about our artwork being altered and ruined! There's so much at stake and I fear time is running out to reverse this...thanks!

Please guys give us a little bit of time to get this at a resolution that all can be happy with. I know this is important but there have also been other things in the forefront at the same time and there are only so many of us:)    The programmers had a lot to do this week and with the server issues that hit (unrelated to the galleries) at the same time everything we wanted to get resolved this week didn't happen.  So as difficult as I know it is please give us a little time to see what can be done.  We want the same things you all want but sometimes its not as simple as "heres what we want, just do it". But  we still have this in discussion for next week.

Thanks

Thanks, Stacey...I really do understand that tons & tons of things are going on all at once, and stable servers, etc are a top priority.

And I'm really not trying to be difficut, but we're still getting the message "to see what can be done" instead of "yes, we agree...we've had all these other things going on with the server problems, etc, but as soon as those problems are behind us we will change things so there is no resizing." If we heard that message from you, we'd all relax and we'd be patient. But we hear no commitment, no recognition that the Rendo folks share our priorities. In the absence of that, we've received the message that the design may be the priority, and as artists showcasing our artwork here we find it very difficult to live with that.

Stacey, please take as loooooong as you can to figure it out - I'd like as many people as possible to get used to how good the new galleries look with the full image on the new presentation page. :evilgrin:

Something to factor into the discussions is that a one-click trip to the full size image on the proper presentation page is actually one of the things that puts Renderosity in front of other online galleries. Although I didn't realise it until after it was taken away, I can see now that it's definitely one of the virtues of the place that kept me here. Most of the other outfits are just too much grief. All skirt and no knickers, as they say up t'north.

And don't forget the half-time score:

"Ooh, three clicks, two thumbnails and floating after-thought art" = 0

"M#&"% f^X¬>? image resizing bast$£< scumbag outrage nun stain!"* = several million

;-)

StaceyG,

With all due respect, when you say "We want the same things you all want," this sentiment seems contradicted by the obvious fact that the site design comes first in Renderosity's priorities. This priority has been reinforced by official replies in the various threads discussing these issues.  I haven't seen any official reply that indicates any rethinking of the site design as the priority; the only possibilities seem to be working within that arbitrary constraint. This is NOT the "same thing that we (artists) want."

I would also like to add, since I'm not sure anyone has mentioned it, that I find the whole pop-up window scheme to be very unsatisfactory, because even after two clicks you STILL can't see a large image all at once, because the pop-up window is so small.

Thank you for listening to your concerns.

A smarter default CSS would be a great step in the right direction, and the implementation would be really easy and not break any code.

Why doesn't Renderosity ask PJF to do the CSS? His solutions are fantastic. A great improvement in usability for both the forums and the galleries.

Making such a move would not cost Renderosity anything, and would go a long way towards establishing some credibility to the words "same thing that the artists want".

Quote - Why doesn't Renderosity ask PJF to do the CSS?

begin horror cliche
NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
end horror cliche

LOL, they've got enough problems with things exploding without letting me near stuff.

The best thing Rendo could do regarding appearance is offer two basic schemes (light or dark) as standard, and then make members more aware of further tweaking possibilities (via announcements with links to sticky threads or something).

And, of course, drop the whole silly notion of a uniform image presentation page...

If it's any consolation, according to the thread in the Poser forum, the staff don't like the shrunken image size, either.

You can take it as read that I also think it's a load of dingo's kidneys.

Dingo kidneys are slimy and squishy and hard to hold onto...

:b_stunned:

Quote - And, of course, this comment would come from someone with one image in their gallery who has been on this site for 9 days...I feel completey compelled and enriched with newfound knowledge by your informational response, but I'm afraid it doesn't comply with the entire relative subject matter in which many staple members here are battling this very moment. I love your one beautiful image, it's absolutely gorgeous, and the 9 days you have been a member is fantastic, I wish you the best!

9 days?  Try again.  Thanks for the compliment though!  I used to have many, many images here, but I rarely leave them up for longer than 30 days anymore.  My choice, just my personal thing.  I leave them on my personal domain forever, though. 

I hope you're feeling better.

I agree that the resizing looks bad...  But I agree with TerraDreamer, I don't think this could be considered a copyright infringement, should someone go to court over this they'd be asked why they're not deleting their gallery if they're not happy with the way the images are displayed on this site.  You're free to post here, you're also free to remove your images anytime you want, all you can do really is let them know you don't like the way they display images in the galleries, stop posting, delete your images, don't buy here no more to sort of protest that you don't like it this way, but should they decide to not listen (and I think they are listening...), all you can do really is go somewhere else...  No copyright infringement there I don't think because you can decide to accept the way your images are displayed or not and just go elswhere...

You compare to other people taking your art, adding to it, altering etc, without permission, those are two different things completely.  People who do this don't ask, most of the time they will claim the work as their own and you don't have control over what they do with the image unless you take some legal action.  Here, well, the image itself isn't actually altered it's the coding that does this, they're not adding sparkles, repainting over it or whatever, they're not claiming the images as their own and you have full control over your images, you can post them or delete them whenever you want, no need for legal actions...

All that being said, I totally agree that the resizing looks bad, that it's a waste of time to have to click twice to see an image the actual size but I'm willing to give rendo some time and see if, after all the complains, they'll do something about it.  I think they will, but if not, then I'm free to decide if I want to keep my gallery here or not.

Thanks for that

All I can say, is that yes, members concerns are being heard, and yes, it is being discussed..

Please see the New Announcement thread I posted this evening regarding this issue

See? WOOHOO!  :woot:

Quote - Don't you DARE touch my galleries with this stupid algorthm, I will pull off this site faster than a 20 pound trout on my line. I will not only pull my work and persona from here, I will also advertise the nature of this activity to fellow artists whom have not posted here yet and direct them elsewhere. I am truly unhappy with the inconsideration that the admin is offering the users here, and I have heard the term 'the last straw' more than once withing three days...Force me to do something, and I'll be forced to leave everytime; just try me. 

Wow!  I'll bet Tim (and probably Tammy, too!) lost serious sleep over that!

All sarcasm aside...

One thing I want to add for your consideration is your posting images at 1600x1200.  I'm a betting man, and I'll bet you the vast majority of users here are sitting behind displays set to 1024x768.  And you'd also be amazed at how many are sitting behind screens set to 800x600.  Only now are resolutions of 1280x1024 becoming commonplace, and you're still creating a scrolling situation for the vast majority of users.  Now when you post an image of the size that you personally do, it requires a LOT of scrolling around hell's half-acre just to see the entire image.  By the time the viewer scrolls all the way to the right, he or she has forgotten what the hell they were looking at 8 inches ago to the left, or top, or bottom.  If you really want people to enjoy your artistry, you might want to consider posting in a resolution where they can take the entire image in.  Most artists here do that and do so successfully in terms of quality because of their understanding of proper compression techniques and also because they're aware of the majority of hardware in use.

Just my 2 cents.  No need to reply, as the final decision by the PTB has been made and I sure as hell won't reply to yours as it's all moot, and now appears to be good.  I can view your over-sized images in a resolution that fit my 1280x1024, and hopefully, the algorithm they employ actually resizes without those nasty-assed jaggies!  Let's keep our fingers crossed and the subpeonas at the ready!

Aww...have a sense of humor!

Cheers!  Really!