Attached Link: Dude should I get a DELL ?

• Processor Brand

Intel®

** **

• Processor

Intel® Core™2 Quad

** **

• 2.33GHz

** **

• System Bus

1333MHz

** **

• Cache Memory

6MB on die level 2

** **

• System Memory (RAM)

6GB

** **

• System Memory (RAM) Expandable To

8GB

** **

• Type of Memory (RAM)

DDR2 SDRAM

** **

• Hard Drive Type

SATA (7200 rpm)

** **

• Hard Drive Size

750GB

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• Graphics

ATI RADEON 3450

** **

• Video Memory

256MB

using Vista, of course 

Should this work better with Poser 7 ?
I assume I'll notice a big boost in processing power and speed for Poser?

currently using
an HP dual core 64x2 1.99 Ghz processor 3800+ with 2.43 Gig RAM
using XP

Yep. I just upgraded myself a few weeks ago to a quad core intel 6600.

Also keep in mind you'll want to toss in a bigger power supply, and a real video card. a psu and video card will run you an additional $250 or so. (My psu was $70, and the video card I have in my system if from my old one, but can be had for about $170 shipped.)

If that puts you over budget, consider the gateway quad core 6600 system best buy has as well.. that's the system I purchased.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9032316&type=product&id=1218010533213

Memory is pretty cheap now, and you can kick the system up to the max 8 gb for about $35 more.

right thanks, I had a look at the HP, but for about 50 more the Dell is a better buy, it has the card
with dedicated memory

I had a local computer store build mine with my spec for £1000 less than what Dell could do it for, and yes they did use all new stuff and top of the range gear, not crap.
Shop around before going with Dell, they're not that cheap and I've heard bad things about their support, RTB and all that crap could see you without a 'puter for weeks, whereas the local store is just down the road!!

Don't forget Poser still won't use all that RAM because it's still a 32 bit prog apart from the render engine in my understanding!
All that RAM though, good excuse to get Vue as well!!..........that can use all the RAM because it's true 64 bit app!!

Hmmm  good to know wil digest it

thanks :)

The ATI 3450 is underpowered, and OpenGL support (Poser 6 and higher can use OpenGL for the document window) is dismal.
If you're shopping for a Poser PC, I'd suggest the following:

CPU: Intel Q6600. About the same performance as the 8200, but significantly cheaper
Mainboard: Gigabyte P43 series. Very reliable, and more than enough possibilities for expansion. Doesn't come with IEEE1394/Firewire though, but if you're not planning to transfer data between a DV camera and the PC, you won't miss it.
RAM: 4 x 2 GB DDR2-800. Kingston ValueRAM is affordable and works just fine. No use buying extremely fast RAM at extreme prices, it'll get you a 2%-3% performance increase at most.
Graphics card: nVidia 8800GT. Much, much faster than the ATI, good OpenGL support for all Windows flavors, plus Linux. And pretty affordable too.
PSU: Coolermaster M520. Affordable, stable, efficient and silent. Plus cable management: you only install the internal cables that you actually use.
Hard disk: Samsung Spinpoint F series: Fast, silent, and affordable. I have 3 750GB Spinpoints and 2 1TB Spinpoints, and they do their job very well.
DVD: Doesn't matter all that much, LG, Samsung and Nec/Optiarc are about the same price and the same performance. Do buy a SATA DVD +/- RW drive though: then you won't need the large airflow-obstructing IDE cable.
System case: that's more difficult. You'll want a case with room for expansion, a case that is solidly built, a case that has good airflow, and that is silent. Chieftec cases are about the most solid I've ever encountered - sturdy enough to use as a stool! - but they're not exactly silent. The Antec P182 is probably the best compromise.

The total price of the system will probably be somewhat more than the $750 of the Dell, but not that much. And you'll have a machine that vastly outperforms the Dell.

The included video card in that system can be had for all of $20 right now retail.. it's old junk.[

Check tom's hardware guide for the best ideocard under $200.. that's what I usually go with.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-geforce-graphics,2086.html](http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-geforce-graphics,2086.html)

Bundlers always give you  bunch of crap you really don't need in a new bundled system. Usually you need to toss out the modem card,(unless you are on dialup), the video card (if they gve you one, it's usually 2 year old junk), and the power supply usually is JUST enough to run the bare rig.. add another HD or a video card, and you'll need to replace that as well.

I'd say go with a 550 watt psu or better, and READ REVIEWS ON POWER SUPPLIES before you order one (usually off newegg or tiger direct). What might look like a great value could be a garbage psu, and that will increase heat in your system, and can cause crashes due to insufficient power provided.

(BTW, the breakdown listed just above my post is almost exactly what I have in my new system right now.)

Only difference is the video card.. here's toms hardware guide for $140-$250.. they rank the ati hd8450  as the best value, but then have the next one up in both ati and nvidia flavors, if you prefer one brand over another.)

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-geforce-graphics,2086-4.html

Build your own. Seriously, it's not that hard, with a bit of research. OK, alot of research, but you learn alot along the way and you can save alot of money. You don't get a warranty, but in the process you also learn what you need  to do your own repairs.

And if that's not an option, pick out the type of hardware you want, buy it all online (newegg.com is an excellent resource) and coordinate with a reliable and licensed local shop which will help you decide, and assemble it for you.

There's a good reason why OEM machines are inexpensive, and it's not just because they do so much business - they tend to use cheap parts.

IMO, anyone who's really into computers should learn how to build their own, if they can afford it.

EDIT:
Yeah, what svdl said above. Although, IMO, the Q6600 is a bit dated these days and for only a little more money, you can get much more CPU. The 9550, for example, which is 45nm.

Been there, done that.and don;t wanna do it again..My new gateway was a good compromise between building the whole thing myself, and just replacing specific componants.

Quote - Been there, done that.and don;t wanna do it again..My new gateway was a good compromise between building the whole thing myself, and just replacing specific componants.

Fair enough. :-)

Myself, I think I enjoy the building process as much as the using process. I'm constantly changing major components and I've built quite a few PC's. Somewhere along the line I became a geek. It's an addiction. ;-)

I just don't have the time to screw around learing what hardware has been updated, and what is now compatible with what.

If hardware was stable, and didn't change, it would be one thing, but when you have to order everything online, and you come across one part that won;t work with the rest of the system (and has a no refund policy!) it's just not worth the research.

Good case in point: I order additional ram for my system 2 weeks ago.. everything matched up on my current system except ONE thing: the new ram required more power then the new system's mb could provide. The ram did NOIT have the voltage in it's product description, so I hasd to send it back to newegg and order correct ram with the proper voltage to replace it. No big deal, but newegg charged me a $5 restocking fee because ram is usually not refundable. (They made an exception in my case, because the product page did not have all the
information it should have had.)

There are just too many "little things" that can make new hardware go from running perfectly, to not running at all.

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If hardware was stable, and didn't change, it would be one thing, but when you have to order everything online, and you come across one part that won;t work with the rest of the system (and has a no refund policy!) it's just not worth the research.

There are just too many "little things" that can make new hardware go from running perfectly, to not running at all.

Not worth the research? Well, ok, but I disagree. I could have paid twice what I did to have a machine I have less control over and probably less power, but I deemed learning how to do this as "worth it". Consequently, I haven't had that "one part that won;t work with the rest of the system" problem, ever, because I know ahead of time what will and what won't work together.

Just forget I said anything at all - yes, you're right - it's a bad idea for people to build their own machines or to suggest others do the same.

No it's not a bad idea at all, per se.. however the majority of the people do not have the time really required to invest ion researching everything they REALLY need to research before just ordering a pile of hardware that doesn't work properly together.

Some things, like USB are easy.. there are only two standards, usb1 and usb2 (but usb 3 is coming out in a few month's time)

Hard drive wise, there are 3 formats, and also raid configuration to understand. Memory has many different variables, voltage, speed, and some motherboards require it be added in pairs. Lots to learn there.

Same with system cooling solutions, and various proessors available now as well.

If you already know a ton of this stuff, its not that hard.. but for the majority of computer users, it's a TON to learn.. and many ofd us already have a ton to learn as well.

I'm looking at my zbrush manual, my vue7 manual, my lightwave manuals, modo tutorials, poser pro manuals, cs4 updated features, and more stuff then I can even remember right now that I need to learn.

The problem with doing 3d artwork, is we use many programs,l and need to have a good handle on a ton of stuff, and as soon as you learn it, everything gets updated again, and you need to relearn all over again.

I just made the concious choice at one point that I will NOT work for my computer nymore..l it is supposed to do work for ME, and make my work easier.. not add more.

The last system I built took about a month's worth of research, and probably 3-4 weeks of assebly installing and tweaking settings to get everything working just right. I simply don;t have 2 months time to invest in upgrading a system.

Yes, it IS cheaper, but when I look at all the additional hours I had to invest to save that money, it works out cheaper is someone else builds it for me, even if I only value my time at minimum wage.

With my new gateway, I spent maybe 2 hours replacing the psu, popping in vidoecard from my recent work system, and popping in my additional HD.

There's a break even point where some minor additional work saves you money.. once you cross over a certain amount of additional hours, it ends up costing you more maybe not in work hours, but in learning and assembly time.

Someday I might decide to tinker around again and build another new system from scratch, but my time is more valuable to me of late, and I can't afford the lost training time away from all my other software just to upgrade my system.

(Plus I also have to maintain and keep my wife's system up to date and working as well.. hell that ALONE is a full time job some weeks! LOL!)

I couldn't argue with any of that Garee, nor do I want to. I didn't post what I did to get an argument, anyway.

Just so happens to be my opinion - and best for me - to learn that stuff. But I too am learning programs at the same time. Well, the difference is, I don't just think about computer hardware when I need to make an update or build a new system. it doesn't detract from my attention to other things. I keep up to date with what's out there and what's going on. I'm already planning my next badass machine, which I probably won't actually build until next fall. In the meantime, I'll probably build a few "lesser" boxes for a few other people.
In other words, when you're involved in something that interests you, it's not a chore or a liability - you keep up with it, so, for people like myself, spending a few minutes a day reading up on the latest tech is like watching the news on TV - no big deal, and you just add your new knowledge to your current knowledge.

Well, you could also ask why do people build birdhouses when they could go to Walmart and buy one. Just because, in some cases, but also because maybe they want a better bird house. ;-)

No, it's not for everyone. Peace. :-)

I didn't see it as arguing, just discussion of potential options.

So what hardware updates do you see as coming up this next year? I just read about esata, and usb3 in the last week or so.

Great discussion, I got $20 for a nickels worth :)

My only concern about the build route is that I did it once before, back in the Poser 3 days, and it was simply not worth the money, the zooped up compaq I bought afterwards worked just as well if not better, BUT, I will check around for a reputable custom computer store that speaks my language,[English :) ] and seems pretty stable,    They all want the money UP front, and now a days that could simply go right into his back rent, and all I end up with is a paper promise and a sore butt, when I show up at an empty shop one day. One store I was fixing on,  gave me a quote just before Thanks Giving... IT closed down just after he gave me his best prices, about 1,500 for what you guys are proposing and around 900 for the Dell or HP discussed here.
Rough guesstimats of course.

thanks again big KISS and HUG :)

I went with the Dell too and an ATI HD 4870, 8Gigs ram and a 730 watt PSU Have been very happy with it. But if you have time to learn the various compatability issues with the hard ware you can build a really kickass system for comparatively low cost. I didn't have the time and the Dell with the Q6600 was a very good deal.

Why did you go so high on the wattage for your psu? planning on a sli video card configuration own the road?

Only downside I can say about resetup systems, is some of the cases are just too small. They want something that looks nice in your home, but the cases create heat buildup as a result, and they are hard to work inside of.

This new gateway is fully 1/3rd larger then my old hp system is, and runs MUCH cooler.

I went with the 730 watt because it had high ratings and was on special for a very low price, and had a gazillion plugs, someday I was planning on setting up this raid configuration.

And the case was a big selling point for me too, My first computer way back when had a huge case with lots of room, you never see those anymore, so when I saw the Dell with its spacious case, I was soo happy :) I like to have room to put in an extra few hard drives and a regular plain old CD drive.

Quote -

So what hardware updates do you see as coming up this next year? I just read about esata, and usb3 in the last week or so.

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. ;-)

eSATA= external storage, maybe RAID, faster than USB, easier to get at than internal drives. Already here though, not a huge advancement computer-wise, but a better alternative, storage-wise and for backups. Redundancy is good.

USB3? What can you say? Faster is better. Flash drives might become the next best thing to physical RAM, for one, but their lifespan needs to be improved when used for more than just storage. But anything that uses usb3 is going to be faster at least. External hardware will benefit most.

Ah.. Only psu feature I wish I had, was the one mentioned above, where you only plug in the cables you want to use. On my old case I barly had any room inside to stash them at.

Even this new system really only had one "official" place for another HD.. there is extra bay space inside for people that know what to look for.

Only real shortcoming of this system is that every damned thing now uses a usb port, so even 7 isn't enough to meet my needs.I wanted to keep the front two for occasional thumb drive use, and an occasional gamepad plugged in, and just bought a cheap usb2 hub for the back for the additional junk.

I suppose it IS better then the old days though,m with the HUGE serial cables.

Personally, I'm with MikeJ on building, but if your time isn't worth it then a package is fine, too.  I just (over the holidays) built a new system based on a Core 2 Duo E8400 with an MSI MoBo, 8 GB DDR2 1066 RAM, GeForce 9800 GTX+ video, and a 1 terebyte HDD running on Vista 64 BIT OS.  Threw in case with 650 W PS, and a Blu-ray DVD player (burns all but Blu-ray), and a super powered CPU cooling fan.  All was under $1000 at NewEgg.com.

But this brings up my next issue - I was going to start a new thread but it seems to fit in this discussion.  How do I use all this power in Poser?  I am looking to tweak my Firefly render engine to speed things up a bit, but I don't understand the settings well enough to know what to mess with...

With no tweaks at all, a 64-bit render (in the "background" in poser pro) is a little faster, but I'd have to use a timer to tell how much - so far not a lot.  Would like to hear anyone's thoughts on using high-end power with Poser!

Paul

High end power with Poser?
Not too many options there, really... unfortunately. I've brought that up several times but tend to get accused of complaining for the sake of complaining, or even worse, trolling.
Poser Commandments:
#1: Respect and honor thy Poser above all.
#2: Seek not ye of new features, compare not existing features of others, else bond thyself to others and be scarce in the land of Poser.

;-)

You can set the render to as many cores as you have and tweak a little in the render options - even assign Poser as an app to be dealt with independently via the Nvidia Control panel, far as OGL is concerned, but that's pretty much it, far as I can tell. Poser is waaaayyyy behind the curve in taking advantage of higher end PC abilities.

See link in my signature ot build I got made up for Vue and Poser imports :)

Hwoever since the tech is always changing, I'd consider waiting a bit and getting an i7 CPU and suitable moptherboard and RAM in the Summer time, when they hopefully will be cheaper (currenlty horrendously expensive).
they are SERIOUSLY  kick ass if you want fast renders.

Or just get a good one now and don't worry about it. Tech is always changing, its stupid to pay for the current TOP  thing, as it's always x2 to x5 more expensive than it should be, and will drop like a rock.

Using a true 64 bit app (which Poser 6 and 7 Poser aren't) on a system with tons of RAM, is so sooooooo sweet! Night and day difference.

I always by tech at least a year old, because the drivers are mature, and the prices are good at that point.

Quote - I always by tech at least a year old, because the drivers are mature, and the prices are good at that point.

Not a bad idea, really, especially if you deal with Vista (like I do), and particularly with sound cards for some reason. Sound cards are always behind and I have yet to figure that one out...

But I'm replying to this because you bring up a very valid point I didn't think to address - know the hardware, know where it's heading, but realize the "next big thing" is probably ahead of your needs, and even ahead of your software's ability.

We're never completely on the bleeding edge - no matter how great our hardware is, there's always a ton of apps which still can't utilize it fully. ;-)

Just a note I use a small owner owned company out of New York state to build my machines he is very good and very reasonable and answers all email himself and rated very highly by resellersratings.com. As I said he is a small outfit and is more than happy to help you pick out what you want or need as far as hardware and what you want in a machine and the budget you want to stay within. No pressure, no forcing you to take what you don't want and no pressure sales.
I have had my last two machine built by him a dual core and a quad core and the dual core is still running strong and the quad core is awesome.

My quad I use strictly for all my 3d work and the dual core is now my internet/email/downloading content machine. If you'd like I can PM you his information. As for me I have had terrible luck with the main computer builders such as Dell and the like.

I have an intel quad, 8 gigs of ram, vista 64, large hard drive, GeForce 9600GT 512MB with a 500 watt power supply which runs Vue 7, poser pro and my paint program without issue.

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As for me I have had terrible luck with the main computer builders such as Dell and the like.

Yeah, I hear that. Well, I haven't bought an off-the-rack PC since 2000, but I've had friends who have had problems with Dell.
And just a few months ago my stepfather bought a Dell laptop,which flat out didn't work. Wouldn't even boot. Then the replacement burned up, almost caught on fire. His third one was fine, and to their credit, the Dell people were pretty good about it and quick, but still... you know?

That's why I say that if you can't build your own or don't want to take the time, the next best thing is a custom shop. Many of them are certified Microsoft OEM System builders, and you get a warranty, not to mention you can avoid silliness like onboard video, which, IMO, is the worst idea ever. People see, "hey, this has 2 gigs of RAM", but don't realize it's being shared with the video.

Of course, there are a zillion other reasons to not go to Comp USA or Dell and buy a machine off the rack.

I built my own a couple of months ago. I gutted my single core and put in a quad Phenon 9950, same as the q6700 but a hundred + cheeper. New PSU OCZ X-stream 600w asus MB, 8Gb ram and a cheep nvidia 8500gt( works fine with all my cg software). I had an extra seagate 500Gb drive already for it. Used the old DVD/cd drives and just replaced the IDE ribions with the IDE round cables for air flow. The case is slightly bigger than normal, older case.

I had so much fun putting it together, that when I was looking for something in the basement, I found my first computer. IBM. The MB fried but PSU was good. So, I dropped the single core I had just replaced into that case. I lucked out with the MB was a mini atx so it fit in the IBM case. I use this for the net and DL's  so I don't have to have any antivirus or firewalls interfering with my other two work stations.

Which my other dualcore is an HP referbished and has been running great for over 2 years. That's another option, check referbished PC's.

Building your own is not for everyone, I did it because I've always been good at building things. Others, it's better to buy and have someone else do it.

The only things I need now for awhile is a new case, full tower, when I find the right price, no hurry, and another monitor as I have an extra PC I never planned for. LOL.

Depending on what you use the machine for, onboard video can be just fine. One of my rigs has onboard video, with just 8 MB of its own RAM, and no sound at all - perfect for a server. Don't need power-consuming fast 3D on that thingy, you just need your UI to work, and that's exactly what that small onboard thngy is doing.

In home theater PCs that must run as silent as possible, onboard video can also be a good solution - less physical hardware inside the case, better airflow and cooling. Performancewise good enough for playing DVDs or HD movies, but cerntainly not for 3D work.

The list I posted yesterday contains somewhat older hardware, indeed. The Q6600 is almost two years old by now.
But if you want better performance than the Q6600, you'll have to pay significantly more. The Q8200 is only a little more expensive than the Q6600, but performs a little less. Its only advantage is a lower power consumption (and the later g0 stepping of the Q6600 isn't bad at all when it comes to power. And it overclocks like mad - many, many people run a Q6600 on 3.0 Ghz or more with no trouble at all, while it's designed for 2.4 Ghz).

That cheep 8500gt card I put in is 1GB. I'm not a PC gamer, that's what Playstations are for, so I really don't need the lates and the greatest card. If it runs my Vue, Poser, modo, paint apps and my 2d animation software, it's all good.

I found that a fast graphics card is a blessing when working with complicated scenes in Poser and Vue. And solid OpenGL is a must - I still remember the ATI 9600 Pro I had a couple of years ago. At the time, it was the fastest graphics card I had by far, but it was an ATI - which means lousy OpenGL. That system was completely unusable with Vue.

Most of my Poser and Vue work is done on a system with an 8800GT, some of it on an system with a 7800GTX. I have a tendency to heavily populate my scenes, 15 human figures is no exception, and there's always lots and lots of environment figures/props.
A 8500 wouldn't cut it.

Well, that's me and the way I do things. If you're not into large busy scenes, a lighter graphics card will do the job just fine.

Strange because I can do the same with my 8500 on my system, very heavy populated and good openGL on what I'm working on. Shows how different machines work with different parts. What doesn't work well on one machine works fine on another. Software is the same too.

I'm not going to worry about it, when I get the new case I'll put a bigger card in and it will cost less then. The prices drop pretty quick. I don't need to keep up with the jones's. 

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Depending on what you use the machine for, onboard video can be just fine. One of my rigs has onboard video, with just 8 MB of its own RAM, and no sound at all - perfect for a server. Don't need power-consuming fast 3D on that thingy, you just need your UI to work, and that's exactly what that small onboard thngy is doing.

Well, yeah, but that's not what I meant. I guess I should have specified, but I was referring to PCs people were using for heavy duty graphics needing alot of GPU power and dedicated VRAM.
I totally agree about the Q6600. I was by no means knocking it, and it is a great OC'er. But I think we'd agree that people who aren't building their own systems are probably not overclocking their CPU's. For that matter, I don't think most OEM mobo BIOS's even allow you to get near at it. And they also might not have room for a larger hsf to fit over the proc.
But OC'ing is a serious PITA too, even for people who know what they're doing. Shortly after I installed my Intel Q9550 (2.83 ghz, stock), I went through a few weeks (yes, weeks) of overclocking it. The whole routine of raising it a little, adjusting voltage, benchmarking and stress testing the hell out of it. Wash, rinse, repeat. I managed to get it up to 3.4 ghz eventually where it was mostly stable, although it was running quite hot,in spite of my four 120mm  and two 80mm case fans and my Zalman hsf. And it would still BSOD from time to time. Finally I said to myslef that a quad core at 2.83 ghz was plenty good enough. ;-)
And it is, too. It actually renders LightWave and modo scenes I have about 2.5 - 2.75 times faster than my dual core AMD machine which is 3.0 ghz (OC'd to 3.2, which is the best I could do for it). Both machines have 8 GB RAM.

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I'm not a PC gamer, that's what Playstations are for

Um, excuse me? No, I'd beg to differ. Can you use a Playstation to have multiple 3D apps open, including modding programs, to create mods for games? Nope, sure can't. ;-)
OTOH, alot of great games start out for console, and later get lame ports to PC, and there doesn't seem to be any reversing that trend. GTA IV is a good recent example of that. Well, I'm an avid PC gamer and am probably a little biased. ;-)

Far as vid cards go, my 8800 GTS does great for all current games and apps. The newer card designs will eventually be better, but not until apps really start taking advantage of what the GPU's can do. Currently, OpenGL is largely handled by your CPU.

Quote,"Um, excuse me? No, I'd beg to differ. Can you use a Playstation to have multiple 3D apps open, including modding programs, to create mods for games? Nope, sure can't. ;-)
OTOH, alot of great games start out for console, and later get lame ports to PC, and there doesn't seem to be any reversing that trend. GTA IV is a good recent example of that. Well, I'm an avid PC gamer and am probably a little biased. ;-)

Yes you are, I said, " I'm not a PC gamer," I bult my system to run my software and not play games. If I was to play games I would have gone with a bigger newer card.. Right now, a new case is first on the list. I want the CoolerMaser HAF. It was on sale for $150 right after Xmas but missed it due to family emergencies. Mind a couple of 120mm fans installed to the side panel keeps it all pretty cool. 22c /27c and 29c /36c at full load for a few hours. I think that pretty good for a hot system. My phenom 9950 is 140w.

I noticed the the new intels cpus are 130w. It looks to me that the new tech is getting hotter, not to mention the newer vid card are running hotter too and add SLI or Crossfire setups now. Cooling and psu are big factors when building a system. 

My opinions, I'm not a pro PC analist, it was my first built and works just fine for what I do

I have seperate PCs for art and gaming.
Games often put a SH*T load of damned DRM crap into your system, which makes it unstable as hell :/ Not all games do, but some do.

Pretty sure years ago, it was a specific game that triggered three Maxtor hard drives dying over a few months, which was crazy :/

Thus, it's best to keep game (and Net browsing) and art rigs as seperate PCs :)