I have Poser 8 and am interested in having more realistic skin tones and appearance than comes with the default Poser skin so I'm wondering what is the best way to go.

Personally I like the renders in Vue better than the renders in Poser so I'm asking you skin experts out there if VSS (BagginsBill - which I've read about) is better than the plugin for Vue, Skin Vue to create more realistic skin, especially for the face?

I have also used the MoTY mats but don't know if I'm really talking about three different solutions.

VSS as I understand it is a lighting plugin for Poser that helps give more realistic skin tones and shading, where I think Skin Vue is an actual material layer for figures in Vue. So, if I'm rendering in Vue then VSS wouldn't do me any good. Is that correct?

Anyway, any enlightenment and clarification would be helpful.

Michael

Bagginsbill's VSS (Versatile Shader System) is in fact a mechanism for applying shaders to the material zones of figures and objects in Poser via the use of a Python script that interacts with a control prop, which in turn determines what materials are applied and where.
You can use VSS to set up your own control props to apply shaders to multiple material zones of a figure or prop.

The various VSS skin shaders (PR1, PR2, PR3 etc) are examples of that mechanism being used to apply realistic skin shaders to multiple material zones of a figure. Each of these PR (Pre Release) versions is a downloadable prop which has the VSS shader 'rules' for skin already set up so that when the VSS python scrip is run the materials are automatically applied to all the correct material zones on the figure.

I've been using the PR3 shaders for quite a while now and consider them to be the best option for achieving a realistic skin in Poser. They are IMO very easy to adjust for different texture maps and varying surface effects like adding extra shine etc.
How they compare to SkinVue I can't say. Poser has no accurate translucency or SSS shader options so bb has done a great job of achieving the best possible approximation of these effects given the limitation s of Poser at this time.

Since I don't know Vue well enough I can't say whether the VSS skin shaders would be of any use in Vue (can Vue use Poser shaders?), or if there are already more realistic skin options for use in Vue that utilise effects that Poser can't currently reproduce.

You can read more about VSS here sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage

It's a bit like comparing apples and oranges, isn't it? We're talking two different programs.

For Poser, VSS is your best bet if you're rendering in Poser. If you're rendering in Vue, than VSS won't help you much, just as the Vue skin plugin won't help you in Poser :o).

Laurie

VSS is not any of what you think it is. VSS is a tool for applying shader templates to props and figures as a group, without you having to apply them one by one. When it applies a template, it examines the target to see what images are used for color, bump, etc and inserts them in the correct places of the template. It can manage applying different templates to different materials, such as eye whites, teeth, skin, walls, windows, doors, floors, etc.

VSS comes with some shader templates for human figures at the moment, and it is these shaders that people refer to as VSS. They are not. VSS is a Python script for automatically populating (copying) shaders from a control prop containing templates onto actual figures and props that are part of a scene.

After the copying is done, it has nothing whatsoever to do with lighting, shading, or rendering. Of course, the copied shaders are doing the shading.

Now people obviously associate the skin shader I provided with VSS as being VSS, but they are not the same thing. That's like thinking that Alyson and Ryan are Poser 8, and that Sydney and Simon are Poser 7. They are not Poser, they are Poser content used in Poser and come with Poser. SImilarly, the skin template is not VSS, it is VSS content used with VSS. You can make and use your own shader templates as well. They are actually ordinary Poser materials with a few conventions for representing stuff that won't be known until a target figure or prop is being configured by VSS.

Several characters are or will shortly appear with my skin shader on them. Users do not need VSS to use those characters, as the outcome of the use of VSS is standard Poser materials.

Now the reason that my shaders are more realistic doesn't have a lot to do with skin - it has to do with just basic proper management of light as it reflects off materials and as the result is properly displayed on a computer image. That means gamma correction and using a Blinn node for specular and setting up a good bump map if there isn't one and a couple other small things, all of which you could do yourself and pay no money for. But I've assembled my bag of tricks into these pre-built template shaders for all to use with one click.

Note also that much of the complexity of these shaders is actually not necessary. The reason there are so many nodes is because I've captured all my knowledge of how to adjust several parameters at once to create a realistic effect, expressed not as those individual parameters but rather in terms that an artist thinks. For example, want more shine? Increase the "Shine" parameter. That actually alters a bunch of other parameters. I used to try explaining how all those parameters should be altered in synchrony, but I find it better to just put myself in the shader and leave the artists free of the math and parameter details.

Quote - It's a bit like comparing apples and oranges, isn't it? We're talking two different programs.

For Poser, VSS is your best bet if you're rendering in Poser. If you're rendering in Vue, than VSS won't help you much, just as the Vue skin plugin won't help you in Poser :o).

Laurie

Not quite accurate. In fact, if you import Poser materials in Vue, VSS will help a lot. More than a lot.

Note that I wrote my big post and cross-posted with you two. I had not read your posts yet.

I believe Vue can import Poser material shader setups (how accurately I don't know) using Skin Vue, so you could use VSS in Poser to set up the skin shaders for export and render in Vue.
I'd have thought Vue would already have other good skin shaders available though (?) - doesn't it have more advanced shaders?

more cross-posting fun

Quote - > Quote - It's a bit like comparing apples and oranges, isn't it? We're talking two different programs.

For Poser, VSS is your best bet if you're rendering in Poser. If you're rendering in Vue, than VSS won't help you much, just as the Vue skin plugin won't help you in Poser :o).

Laurie

Not quite accurate. In fact, if you import Poser materials in Vue, VSS will help a lot. More than a lot.

I stand corrected :o). I haven't used Vue since version 4...lol.

Laurie

Vue has SSS Poser does not have SSS.

I really wouldn't use the Vue SSS for skin, it's tricky to set up and very dependent on the scale of the scene.
If you can handle the resource hit you get importing Poser shaders into Vue then will probably work - I don't use VSS and I don't import Poser shaders either so I can't really test it.
I use SkinVue exclusively, I've pretty much figured out the settings I like so it's pretty fast for me

 Here is GND2 with BB's skin shader, rendered in Vue d'Esprit 6 using Poser's Shader tree. The scenery is Stonemason's "Streets of the Med". I had just one GB of RAM when I rendered this, so it works without gigantic amounts of memory. Please click for full size. 

So yes, you can use BB's skin shaders in Vue. I think it looks good. 

Holy cow Uwe! That looks awesome ;o)

Laurie

looks pretty good to me!

I do this all the time using programs like Vue 8 Infinite, VRay, C4D, etc. and mainly just use Poser Pro 7 (now testing 2010) for character setup along with material room changes. So, I can tell you that yes, the two are different in terms of how the skins are shaded. Typically, I leave the import Poser skin shaders turned on for importing into Vue. Then I go into Vue Advanced Material Editor and hand tweak the settings for all the materials.

The biggest key to getting a realistic render of a character are many factors. First, you need a very good skin texture which most figures have now, based on real skin photos from places like 3d.sk. Do NOT change them to a lower res, use whatever the default is such as 4000x4000 pixels. Leave everything else in high res too (eyes, hair, etc.) Then make sure everything is setup in the Poser Material Room and do a test render there just to check, don't worry about lighting, that will be setup in the more high end 3D program. Second, import your Poser character into Vue, leave the Poser shader option checked when importing. Third, put your posed Poser import character into the scene and work on lighting.

Now, it will all depend upon what the scene is and if it will be a day or night scene. Here, lighting is always key to a great render. In fact, it is just as, if not more important than anything else. That is why you MUST have a good understanding of how lighting works for the 3D program you are working in. If you still are not happy, try Skin Vue 8 and see for yourself, but NOTHING is a substitute for doing some manual tweaking of the shaders and understanding lighting inside Vue.

Keep in mind, some settings in Skin Vue REPLACES the shaders that you imported with your Poser figures. Just make sure you know what you are working with because you may or may not want to replace them. I'm attaching a non slightly tweaked Poser import with no skin shader enhancements at all and no big tweaks to the lighting either for you to see just a simple test.

I do this all the time using programs like Vue 8 Infinite, VRay, C4D, etc. and mainly just use Poser Pro 7 (now testing 2010) for character setup along with material room changes. So, I can tell you that yes, the two are different in terms of how the skins are shaded. Typically, I leave the import Poser skin shaders turned on for importing into Vue. Then I go into Vue Advanced Material Editor and hand tweak the settings for all the materials.

The biggest key to getting a realistic render of a character are many factors. First, you need a very good skin texture which most figures have now, based on real skin photos from places like 3d.sk. Do NOT change them to a lower res, use whatever the default is such as 4000x4000 pixels. Leave everything else in high res too (eyes, hair, etc.) Then make sure everything is setup in the Poser Material Room and do a test render there just to check, don't worry about lighting, that will be setup in the more high end 3D program. Second, import your Poser character into Vue, leave the Poser shader option checked when importing. Third, put your posed Poser import character into the scene and work on lighting.

Now, it will all depend upon what the scene is and if it will be a day or night scene. Here, lighting is always key to a great render. In fact, it is just as, if not more important than anything else. That is why you MUST have a good understanding of how lighting works for the 3D program you are working in. If you still are not happy, try Skin Vue 8 and see for yourself, but NOTHING is a substitute for doing some manual tweaking of the shaders and understanding lighting inside Vue.

Keep in mind, some settings in Skin Vue REPLACES the shaders that you imported with your Poser figures. Just make sure you know what you are working with because you may or may not want to replace them.

I do this all the time using programs like Vue 8 Infinite, VRay, C4D, etc. and mainly just use Poser Pro 7 (now testing 2010) for character setup along with material room changes. So, I can tell you that yes, the two are different in terms of how the skins are shaded. Typically, I leave the import Poser skin shaders turned on for importing into Vue. Then I go into Vue Advanced Material Editor and hand tweak the settings for all the materials.

The biggest key to getting a realistic render of a character are many factors. First, you need a very good skin texture which most figures have now, based on real skin photos from places like 3d.sk. Do NOT change them to a lower res, use whatever the default is such as 4000x4000 pixels. Leave everything else in high res too (eyes, hair, etc.) Then make sure everything is setup in the Poser Material Room and do a test render there just to check, don't worry about lighting, that will be setup in the more high end 3D program. Second, import your Poser character into Vue, leave the Poser shader option checked when importing. Third, put your posed Poser import character into the scene and work on lighting.

Now, it will all depend upon what the scene is and if it will be a day or night scene. Here, lighting is always key to a great render. In fact, it is just as, if not more important than anything else. That is why you MUST have a good understanding of how lighting works for the 3D program you are working in. If you still are not happy, try Skin Vue 8 and see for yourself, but NOTHING is a substitute for doing some manual tweaking of the shaders and understanding lighting inside Vue.

Keep in mind, some settings in Skin Vue REPLACES the shaders that you imported with your Poser figures. Just make sure you know what you are working with because you may or may not want to replace them. The image here is just a simple import with NO tweaks or use of Skin Vue or other skin enhancers, just standard Poser mats.