Attached Link: Controlling Exposure Using Histograms

Maybe a little too close to [F]arters. Imagineer, Conceptual Alchemist, Someone Who Wants To Draw Tits Without Being Called A Pervert?

For those interested in some post-render adjustments, here is an excellent article by Pixar's Birn with some good information on using histograms and a few good lighting tips as well. Not as hep as GC but hey, what is :-)

Quote - I am sorry, but you sound as if you are proud of this fact (??).
And to think how much you both would have grown had you taken the high road? Sometimes it is best to leave our first reactions at the doorstep.

I am Indeed.  This was not a "first reaction"-it had been going on for many years, and this was not the first time he threatened to resign.  His attitude and conduct were really hurting the Church.  We even had to hire extra outside singers to fill the Choir many Sundays. We now have a vibrant music program that is a pillar of the Church, and our Choir loft is overflowing with Church members.  I hear that he has a better situation at his new Church as well, so it was a win-win situation for all.

"Taking the high road" does not mean  being a doormat-sometimes the Moneychangers need to be tossed from the Temple...

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - What's 'linear data'

y=mx+b... 

Not:
linear = sRGB ^ 2.2
?

Still learning, here... :biggrin:

OMG! My head's just fallen off

Quote - > Quote - I am sorry, but you sound as if you are proud of this fact (??).

And to think how much you both would have grown had you taken the high road? Sometimes it is best to leave our first reactions at the doorstep.

I am Indeed.  This was not a "first reaction"-it had been going on for many years, and this was not the first time he threatened to resign.  His attitude and conduct were really hurting the Church.  We even had to hire extra outside singers to fill the Choir many Sundays. We now have a vibrant music program that is a pillar of the Church, and our Choir loft is overflowing with Church members.  I hear that he has a better situation at his new Church as well, so it was a win-win situation for all.

"Taking the high road" does not mean  being a doormat-sometimes the Moneychangers need to be tossed from the Temple...

Just remember what they say about pride. Especially when it comes in taking pride in an act which lowers you to the same level as the one you're in a fight with.

Here is the real Sam Therapy, hoping to put matters right.

Please disregard all the above posts by "me".  They were made by a (now ex) friend in a misguided attempt at humour.

Sorry if any comments caused offence; you all should know me well enough by now to know I don't do that sort of thing.

@ FW, if you want to restart the topic, I'll be more than happy to contribute in a positive and helpful manner. 

 Man, you're friend sure knows how push ones buttons!  I got quite angry.  Serves me right though as I have played the same trick on my ex-girlfriends Facebook account ;)  Punch him in the shoulder once from me and I apologize for my reply post.

I am absolutely not going to wade through the damage done by my ex friend, so here goes from the top...

If you consider yourself to be an artist, you are.  If you don't, you may still be.

It all depends on what you're attempting and what is in your mind when you create something.  Thing is, it's back to the slippery slope of defining "art", which a lot of us - myself included - believe can't be defined.  It's a personal vision, not something imposed from on high.

My experience of developing my technical skills was such that I lost sight of what I was ultimately trying to say and ended up with a bunch of images which were improving in production values but lacking in artistic merit.  I am now at a point where I have nothing to say as an artist, but plenty to create as a technician.  That's satisfying to me because it keeps me going creatively - for now - until the Muse sees fit to visit again.

I believe all the CG tools available are there to be used if you choose.  If your image achieves your vision without them, you have created a work of art.  OTOH, you may find your image needs more bells and whistles in order to get the goal.

No real advice to offer other than, don't take your eyes off the prize.

Wow.

Ya know, if those fools in the 60's didn't add Gamma Correction to or TVs to make generated light look more like reflected light - we here, in Poser-Land, would be so much happier....

The point of CG is that it allows you to do whatever you want, however, if what you want requires photo-realism, then the laws of physics and mathematics are going to be rather demanding.

There are ONLY two rules of CG:

1. Figure out how it works and figure out how to fake it.

2. If it looks good, it IS good.

take care

Yeah! I sold my first Poster at Zazzle this weekend! Cha Ching! Prize! It was rendered in Vue though. LOL!

eh, I for one thought WandW's story made perfect sense. I don't even see that he was a jerk. The other guy (described as a big pain) tried to negotiate a conflict by threatening to resign. Why is it obvious that our hero WandW is just supposed to suck it up? He did the harder thing and took out the trash. That's not even bad as a Bible story

Sure maybe WandW is just an intolerant control freak and wanted an innocent guy gone, but that's not the story that was presented.

I'm just doing this for fun and on a pro basis once in a while. Before I render, I envision how I want the scene to look like when it's finished. The I pick the features needed to accomplish this and that give the results I want.

Once I'm done, I want something that brings across what I intended and looks pleasing to the eye. Perhaps I didn't use all the features that I'm supposed to use according to this person or that person. Perhaps I didn't use what this or that person insist we all should use. I don't care.

All I care is that the image looks like I want it to be...... with or without CG, VSS, Tone Mapping, IDL, AO and so on. I could really care less if I didn't use IDL this time, so what? The image came out the way I wanted it to be, that's what matters. No CG used.... so what? Perhaps next time again.

Personally I'm getting of people who insist on using this or that..... I do this for fun and when I'm pleased with the image that's what matters. When I'm working for a client, I need to please him/her. I have yet to meet a client telling me you need to use CG or whatever, they really don't care. As long as the image meets their needs. They don't care what I used or didn't use, I don't care, all I care about is creasting something they way I or they like it.

CG stands for computer graphics, not gamma correction. The abbreviation for gamma correction is GC.

Why do you insist on repeatedly responding to pressure that doesn't exist? NOBODY has told you, aeilkema, that you have to use any of the tools you mentioned. You are tilting at windmills.

The tools you mentioned are tools for realism. Your images (at least what you post in the gallery) are toons. Nobody has ever said you need any of those tools for toons.

The tools you mentioned are called for when attempting realism, particularly photorealism. I understand that you have no interest in that, and nobody is telling you to do otherwise.

Illustrations, comics, toons, these are not the topics in which anybody talks about GC, IDL, AO, and so on. It's like you're complaining that you're tired of people telling you that you have to use a hammer to make a birthday cake. While it is perfectly true that a hammer is not needed to make a cake, it makes no sense to talk about your right to make a cake without a hammer. Nobody is telling you to do that.

The conversations in which the aforementioned tools are suggested involve users who ask for help on how to get more realistic images. That is a subset of the community. That subset has a right to discuss the tools necessary to accomplish realism. This does not invalidate the work of non-photoreal artists, and as far as I can tell, everybody agrees with that. So who are you disagreeing with exactly? 

Go make some images.

Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

Is that sarcasm? I don't want to misinterpret what you said and react to something you didn't mean.

Quote - Sure maybe WandW is just an intolerant control freak...

SHHHHH!  Don't let everyone know!! :lol:

LostinSpaceman does indeed  raise a valid warning about the sin of Pride  My 'pride' in being able to successfully deal with a potentially divisive issue while avoiding conflict in the Congregation is more akin to the satisfaction expressed by the Apostle Paul when wrote Timothy that he had "fought the good fight and finished the race".  However, I'm quite glad someone else has that job now-I did my time!

.

Quote - > Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

BB posted some very interesting renders Here.

Quote - Is that sarcasm? I don't want to misinterpret what you said and react to something you didn't mean.

No sarcasm at all, I've rendered 8 images today, how many did you do?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

BB posted some very interesting renders Here.

Renders, yes, but no images......

Quote - > Quote - Is that sarcasm? I don't want to misinterpret what you said and react to something you didn't mean.

No sarcasm at all, I've rendered 8 images today, how many did you do?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

BB posted some very interesting renders Here.

Renders, yes, but no images......

What precisely is your point?  That because BB's gallery isn't filled with images he doesn't know what he's talking about?   Does pounding out renders make someone better at making images? I think not.   Rendering is easy.  Hit a button and grab a cup of coffee.  The difference is that BB understands what happens when you hit render.  Do you?  Fully?   I wouldn't recommend dismissing BB's insights because his gallery is sparse.  You may not need GC, realistic skin or anything like that but he's also come up with some great non-photoreal materials.

No point at all.... after all I didn't give the advice to go and make images, BB did and I just responded to it :-)

I truly don't understand you. I thought renders were images. You seem to be sniping, not saying anything constructive.

I made about 50 yesterday, and published 10.

Today I just published 2 more, on how to make glossy lips with just one more node in VSS.

Not in my gallery, but in threads, helping people understand how to do stuff.

So far, everything you post seems to be intended, IMO, to make people either confused or mad. What is that called again? Oh yea, trolling.

Now I'm going to a meeting with people who pay me a lot of money for my opinion.

You seem to think my opinions are worthless. What a joke.

I don't understand you either, so that makes both of us :-)

Often when you make a point, you seem to need to have to back it up with one claim or another..... which cannot be verified at all....... I never understood that.

As for making people confused, for every one I confuse, but that's too much credit already, I'm sure there's one you confuse as well.

I was just replying to the OP and giving my opinion, if that's trolling fine....... what should we call you jumping on everyone that doesn't agree with you, even if it's not even directed at you at all? The only time I'm OK is when I back you up or help you, if I don't do that, then suddenly I'm a troll.

Anyway..... enough if this, until next time when I'll express my opinion again, regardless of whether you like it or not.

No sarcasm at all, I've rendered 8 images today, how many did you do?

It takes me weeks to make one great image, and I do dozens of renders before I'm satisfied. but perhaps you prefer quantity over quality.

best regards,
Bopper.

Maybe someone could explain to me why these threads always turn into a pissing contest.

If everyone would just for a minute put their damn egos in a drawer and quit getting their digs in, some of this shit might be enjoyable...

Laurie

 If this were a real pissing contest I'd win for sure ;)

Quote -  If this were a real pissing contest I'd win for sure ;)

If it were, it sure as hell would be more fun that what's going on in this thread ;o). You can tell I'm getting tired of it...I'm resorting to bad language...lol.

I've got an idea: why don't we all check our egos and pretentiousness at the door before we respond to someone's post? Hmm?

Laurie

 Fair point and a good idea.  Sarcasm, humor and innuendos are also hazardous tools when posting on public forums.  It's a good idea to leave those at the door too.

At least humor is normally conveyed with a smile...

sigh

Laurie

Quote - If everyone would just for a minute put their damn egos in a drawer and quit getting their digs in, some of this shit might be enjoyable...

Now that I can appreciate...lol.

Laurie

So, when does the pissing contest begin?

I'm getting ready with a couple of beers...

Practice makes perfect. 

I'm about ready to go over to PoserPros and just talk to myself for awhile.

Laurie

LOL!!!!!!!

Quote - I'm about ready to go over to PoserPros and just talk to myself for awhile.

Laurie

I'm quite ready to join you there. I'm tired of being sideswiped by people's egos around here. Try to help one person and suddenly person number three jumps in out of nowhere to take offense at what you'd said and it wasn't even to them/at them. Talking to myself sounds much more relaxing. :tt2:

Quote - > Quote -  If this were a real pissing contest I'd win for sure ;)

If it were, it sure as hell would be more fun that what's going on in this thread ;o). You can tell I'm getting tired of it...I'm resorting to bad language...lol.

I've got an idea: why don't we all check our egos and pretentiousness at the door before we respond to someone's post? Hmm?

Laurie

I hope you don't mind me making an observation that might be enlightening.

Aeilkema thinks you're talking to me there, and I think you're talking to him there.  Yesterday, the same thing happened when JenX made a similar comment. JoePublic didn't believe it was directed at him and kept going, until Jen explicitly said she was referring to him, by name.

So if you think I've said something out of line on this page, please say so, because so far I thought I was being pretty conservative in what I've said.

I'm talking about everybody bagginsbill. You, aeilkema and even myself on occasion and whoever else thinks that sniping and backbiting are gonna solve any damn thing or bear anything constructive. Yeah, sometimes the stuff's downright entertaining, but on the whole it's all getting very old and keeping those that want to learn something from doing so. Not only that, but it makes me wonder whether or not I really wanna participate in this place anymore because it's getting out of hand in a good many threads. I know we all have egos and I know this place has people of every sort, but we're all adults and we should be able to act like it. No, that doesn't mean that people won't disagree or that we can't get stupid and silly every now and then, but the personal dynamics that go on between certain people in this place are ruining it for some people, myself included. Light hearted banter and an occasional flare up is one thing, but it's damn near constant now. I'm getting tired of it all, aren't you?

Laurie

Yes, but you're just restating what I said in my first post on this page. Was it not valid?

I was pointing out that the constant complaining about "gurus" and "pressure" is not serving anybody. Then aeilkema responded with a sarcastic post, and later said it had no point. I don't see where any of this has anything to do with my ego. It has to do with me, too, being tired of reading this pointless complaining about something that isn't actually happening.

It seems there are people who simply do not accept any conversation about GC. We've had several threads demanding to know why it's being shoved down people's throats, and speculating all kinds of crap that is damning. All I've done is ask that those complaining about the pressure, particularly aeilkema, recognize that nobody is pressuring anybody. We're discussing and demonstrating techniques that, like any technique, do not apply everywhere. Yet there is this repeated claim that somebody is shoving it on everybody, and that simply isn't true. I'm tired of it. I want it to stop.

Sometimes you just have to be the better man and let it go because you know there are certain people who won't ;o). Ever.

Laurie

Quote - Sometimes you just have to be the better man and let it go because you know there are certain people who won't ;o). Ever.

Laurie

Words to live by!

Quote - Sometimes you just have to be the better man and let it go because you know there are certain people who won't ;o). Ever.

Laurie

At the risk of sounding like a groupie, Laurie - and not to throw fuel on the fire - but I can't see anything that BB said that should have been construed as being sarcastic or inflammatory. Aeilkema, on the other hand, has been nothing but. His attacks on what we've been learning (for which I've been immensely grateful - this stuff is available nowhere else) sounds designed to devalue the concepts being presented as worthless.
Bill speaks directly. That's to his credit. The attack is one-sided: from those who feel either threatened by this knowledge for some odd reason or who have an ax to grind about their own approach to Poser.
My 2 cents (or farthings...)

I see where you're coming from Robyn, but at this juncture, it's all just pointless back and forth. It goes round and round and never stops because no one's willing to give up getting in the last word and end it.

And for this thread, that's my last word ;o). I've gone on my soapbox. I'm finished now.

Laurie

So, to satisfy those naysayers: should this information only be available to a select few? Perhaps marketed with a high price-tag? No question it is valuable: perhaps giving it away is a mistake?

Pay for something, it attains value - get that same something for free, one questions its value. Human nature.

Fair enough, Laurie... and I'm going for a walk - think I need to calm down too, myself.

the thread brings up several unanswerable questions IMVHO, as one man's troll is another's
righteous man, people who don't use poser may not consider these renders to be art, nobody
perceives these images the same as anybody else, et al.  there's just no mathematical certainty
or elegance to any of these subjective interpretations.

Leaving aside the social commentary ...

I don't believe that the gamma response curve of digital displays is at all a subjective interpretation. Forgive the "gobbledygook", but the sRGB color space is specifically a precise and well defined mathematical construct. It is well documented, and every computer display is built to that specification. Whether a given display succeeds or not in implementing that curve is, of course, a matter of calibration, but that is the curve they are supposed to implement.  It is not subjective. Any image, while it will look different on individual uncalibrated displays, on average will be producing the luminance values according the sRGB specification.

Further, it is a mathematical certainty that a screen filled with alternating black and white pixels, when seen from a distance sufficient to make it no longer possible for the observer to make out the individual pixels, will appear to have a "gray" level. This gray level is precisely half the luminance of the white pixels. Those that deny the meaning and relevance of gamma believe, wrongly, that an identical screen, filled with RGB 128, 128, 128, will be nearly the same half luminance. It is not. It isn't even close. That is the result of gamma.

If you render an object with a 50% light in Poser and compare that to the same render using a 100% light, but you don't gamma correct the outcome, then the 50%-lit render is less than half as bright as the 100% render.

Only a linear output device would produce 50% luminance given 50% lighting versus 100% lighting. There is no such device in the possession of any of the members of this community.

The contant denial of this fact is why I keep trying to explain it. The further denial, despite a never-ending series of demonstrations, is the reason we're having an argument.

The existence of a non-linear response curve in digital images is certain, mathematically precise, and can be dealt with trivially by flipping the GC switch in Poser Pro.

K, so I'll be the gadfly this time.

Since what you say is true (and I completely believe you!!!), gamma-correction is not really an optional process: it is central to correct colours since colour processing sRGB colours by a device that expects linear information will generate rubbish.

Since it isn't optional, why hasn't it been included in all versions of Poser?

Sorry, the question begs asking.

It really *isn't a "Pro" feature, is it? Not if you're going to generate rubbish without it.

I know - I should be asking SM...