Ok, installed Poser 11.3, no issues in the installation. Support for the RTX cards works, a render with my new RTX 2080 Super took less than half the time it did with my GTX 1070. Great!

But the image is not the same. Here's a cropped down bit from Poser 11.2:

And the same bit from Poser 11.3:

The 11.3 image has lost a lot of detail in the skin texture, eyelashes, eyebrows. It seems blurred or perhaps the texture has been downsampled? Not everything in the image suffers this effect. The eye is basically the same, other objects in the render are exactly the same, the lighting is the same. My working hypothesis is that it didn't affect lower resolution textures, only higher resolution ones (this one is 4000px wide which does not seem outrageous).

It's not due to the RTX card. I did the render a third time in 11.3 using the CPU instead, and the results are the same between 11.3 CPU vs GPU. But nothing has changed in the .pz3 file or underlying textures or render settings (this is using Superfly with 55 pixel samples). So something is being handled differently between 11.2 and 11.3. I don't know whether that's the textures as suggested above, or maybe in the handling of the shaders (but it's using a very basic PoserSurface, nothing fancy).

Thoughts?

This is similar to what I have noticed although I am not saying that the issue has the same cause. I tried using my 1080Ti card to render and used the new render default for Superfly and it had Branched Path Tracing ticked. In the render the hair that drops down over the eyes of my figures interacts with the eyebrows and the eye lashes and renders as unsightly blobs. I tried it with the CPU, same result so I went back to my old Superfly defalt with Branched Path Tracing unselected and the problem disappeared using the CPU or the 1080. Using the default I was also able to get the same detail as before at least using the CPU, I did not try with the GPU as Poser still does not play well with a 1080, not with mine anyway, as slow as the CPU but nowhere near as stable.

I have the idea that GPU performance is affected by the apps used. Of course simultaneous use will affect performance, but maybe not all apps leave the GPU in the state they found it in.

I have for example Marvelous Designer GPU simulation and Poser Superfly both using (optionally) the cores in my 1070GTX. I have the impression there is a difference depending on the sequence I use them in. I can imagine same holds for games and tools like Blender.

Those are interesting possibilities, but I get the same result with a CPU (i7) render. Whatever is happening here is not a result of the GPU.

I'm also not using branched path tracing (because it supposedly isn't stable with a GPU). And I had rebooted the computer (required by the install), the only other app that got opened was Firefox.

It almost looks like 'noise reduction'.

Agreed with Prixat... check the render settings for noise-reduction/filtering being on (it might be on by default and set to a certain iteration count.) Dunno Poser well enough these4 days, but there may be a setting where you can pick which iteration to kick in the noise-filtering.

@ChromStar I've been trying to reproduce this and I can't get any thing but identical renders. between 11.2 and 11.3. Identical as in putting the two together as difference layers in PS and there's just nothing. There may be some setting or combination of content causing an issue. If possible I'd like to get the scene for testing. Contact me via site mail if you have time to look into this.

Hornet, you need to bump up the transparency bounces. I set it to 4 min and 32 max to make sure I get it all working.

hornet3d posted at 1:54PM Tue, 31 March 2020 - #4384957

This is similar to what I have noticed although I am not saying that the issue has the same cause. I tried using my 1080Ti card to render and used the new render default for Superfly and it had Branched Path Tracing ticked. In the render the hair that drops down over the eyes of my figures interacts with the eyebrows and the eye lashes and renders as unsightly blobs. I tried it with the CPU, same result so I went back to my old Superfly defalt with Branched Path Tracing unselected and the problem disappeared using the CPU or the 1080. Using the default I was also able to get the same detail as before at least using the CPU, I did not try with the GPU as Poser still does not play well with a 1080, not with mine anyway, as slow as the CPU but nowhere near as stable.

this will illustrate the transparency bounce issue. There probably something similar going on with the other folks renders with 11.3

@ChromeStar I remember something like what you describe when I started using Superfly with the old EZSkin2 SSS shaders. The details were blurry/fuzzy. Are you using old (pre Poser 11) Skin shaders or maybe the Skin shaders that are default with EZSkin3? If this is the case then try using these. https://www.sharecg.com/v/85846/browse/9/Plug-in/Cycle-based-plug-in-for-EZskin3-poser11-only

@ChromeStar Now that I take another look at your image I am convinced that it's your shaders. The shaders that Snarly and BagginsBill have set up use a red filter to mask off the eyebrows to they don't get SSS applied to that portion of the map. Your eyebrows have turned red.

ghostship2 posted at 10:46PM Tue, 31 March 2020 - #4385031

@ChromeStar Now that I take another look at your image I am convinced that it's your shaders. The shaders that Snarly and BagginsBill have set up use a red filter to mask off the eyebrows to they don't get SSS applied to that portion of the map. Your eyebrows have turned red.

This is a good call. Here's the render when I unplug the SSS node from the shader:

The detail is back, and the eyebrow color is back. It's a little hard to see the detail because it's dark, maybe there is too much intensity on the SSS and it's just washing out the detail everywhere on the skin? It's not just the eyebrow (although that's very obvious), but all the freckles and creases are gone too, and turning off SSS fixed that.

This is still the exact same file and settings as used in 11.2, but I'm certainly happier if the difference is an edge case about the SSS node and not handling of textures in general! And masking the eyebrows would be an easy adjustment.

The shader is super simple. There's an image map plugged into diffuse_color, a bump map, an SSS node plugged into alternate_diffuse (with the texture as its input), and a blinn node plugged into alternate_specular (with the red channel from the texture as its input). Could be fancier but it was an old render I redid quickly in superfly.

Like I said: you might want to use EZSkin3 and that shader at ShareCG. That is what I use and it comes out well.

ghostship2 posted at 10:41AM Wed, 01 April 2020 - #4385022

Hornet, you need to bump up the transparency bounces. I set it to 4 min and 32 max to make sure I get it all working.

hornet3d posted at 1:54PM Tue, 31 March 2020 - #4384957

This is similar to what I have noticed although I am not saying that the issue has the same cause. I tried using my 1080Ti card to render and used the new render default for Superfly and it had Branched Path Tracing ticked. In the render the hair that drops down over the eyes of my figures interacts with the eyebrows and the eye lashes and renders as unsightly blobs. I tried it with the CPU, same result so I went back to my old Superfly defalt with Branched Path Tracing unselected and the problem disappeared using the CPU or the 1080. Using the default I was also able to get the same detail as before at least using the CPU, I did not try with the GPU as Poser still does not play well with a 1080, not with mine anyway, as slow as the CPU but nowhere near as stable.

Thank you for the suggestion bumping up the transparency bounces did indeed rectify the problem. I can also confirm I get the same detail with Poser 11.3 as I did with 11.2.

These are the clips of the problem I encountered.

Above is with BPT selected with the default settings.

Above is with the BPT selected but the transparency bounces increased as suggested by Ghostship2. The result is the same without BPT selected but the render times are a lot longer.

Here is the completed render using BPT at default with the exception of the changes to the transparency bounces as suggested by Ghostship2. A side by side comparison with the same render using 11.2 shows no change in the detail. The one difference is the render in Poser 11.2 did not use BPT and had samples set to 50 render time was a few hours whereas the 11.3 render was slightly over 20 mins both using CPU.

@Hornet Curly hair is a pain in the ass. So many layers of transparency that you get those blobs if not using enough trans bounces and if you do the render slows to a crawl. Even in your example here I can still see blobs in the hair. The trick I use is to use darker hair textures and strike a balance with the number of bounces.

ghostship2 posted at 3:58PM Wed, 01 April 2020 - #4385098

@Hornet Curly hair is a pain in the ass. So many layers of transparency that you get those blobs if not using enough trans bounces and if you do the render slows to a crawl. Even in your example here I can still see blobs in the hair. The trick I use is to use darker hair textures and strike a balance with the number of bounces.

Thanks once more for the guidance. The render was really a test render to try out your suggestions and it did show that it was indeed a solution. I included it here because I could not see any real loss in detail as seen by the OP. If I was going to work further with this render it would need more work but as it was about ten time quicker than using my normal settings I have an envelope to work in that should improve the render and still save me time in the long run.

One last eyeball here. :)

No fancy changes or elaborate shader, this just brings up the main texture and brings down the intensity of SSS. Seems like it has all the original detail.

Returning to Poser after a decade away from CAD, I found the Firefly defaults well behaved, but the 'new' superfly dire. Everything was horribly speckled, everything was so dull. Soon learned that a dozen Superfly 'pixel samples' gave similar quality to Firefly defaults, albeit very much slower. And, still dull.

Still learning, one 'oops' at a time...

Generally you want to start with a relatively low number of pixel samples so you can get some quick renders to access textures, lighting, etc. But for a final render you have to crank those pixel samples up to get rid of the noise. Depending on the image, I've used 30-60.

When I do test renders in Firefly (rather than Superfly with a low number of pixel samples) and then re-render in Superfly, I sometimes find that an image that looks like it is posed well is not quite right. The greater accuracy on shadows and lighting really reveals where e.g. a hand is floating above a surface and not actually touching it. Firefly is more forgiving about depth. Once you've done the work to fix those things, I think the results are usually worth it.

Also more often than not you need to trash your Firefly lights when rendering in Superfly. I found Ghostship's light set available on ShareCG invaluable along with Snarlygribbly's envirosphere.

Thank you #Rhia474.

My bad: Took me a while to track them down, as Ghostship posts as bpmorton777

NikKelly posted at 5:13AM Sat, 04 April 2020 - #4385350

Returning to Poser after a decade away from CAD, I found the Firefly defaults well behaved, but the 'new' superfly dire. Everything was horribly speckled, everything was so dull. Soon learned that a dozen Superfly 'pixel samples' gave similar quality to Firefly defaults, albeit very much slower. And, still dull.

Still learning, one 'oops' at a time...

I don't know about everyone else but I think GC is the culprit for dullness. I render with GC enabled but always end up tweaking the results in post by adjusting the levels or contrast a bit in photoshop. I'm sure that someone will chime in that "blah blah blah defeats the purpose of GC blah blah" but having looked at Gamma Corrected renders on multiple monitors and devices there's never an instance where the results look magically right on a different monitor/screen setup. It ALWAYS requires some post work to re-establish some vibrancy. GC allows for more subtle shadows and specular effects, so it's a good accurate starting point for post and you can make adjustments without blowing out the highlights or having too dark shadows...

...which makes me want to go on a rant about the artistic aims of photorealism but I'll spare the experts my naif unwashed barbaric opinions lol.

If using imaged based lighting in Superfly another approach is to add a Cycles brightness contrast node into the illumination shader set-up and adjust contrast

This can cause hue shift so its not something that can be used everywhere.

Example render (no postwork).

In my opinion, render engines are the same as digital cameras - they are data capture devices. Good data i.e. minimal clipping is not necessarily the same as a good image i.e. aesthetically pleasing.

RAW photos from a camera need to be processed; renders should also be processed. In my view it's not optional (unless the goal is just a technical demonstration).