I recently posted an image with some child nudes in it in a non sexual manner. Before doing so I specificly asked about this sort of work in these threads: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=664737 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=664288 And was told several times that it was a non issue. Now my work has been deleted with this message: --- guitta@***** wrote: > > > Dear Member, > > One of your gallery items has been removed by the staff at > Renderosity.com for the following reason: > > It is not any more allowed to show undressed children. > Please observe this rule for your future postings. > Guitta > > Please keep this in mind when submitting future images. > > Thank you, > Renderosity.com > Looking at the Acceptable Image guildelines I see: Acceptable Image Guidelines 1. No depictions of physical arousal or sexual acts. 2. No genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing. 3. No rape or torture of any living or dead creature. Nudity If this image contains nudity of any type, you must check the "Nudity" checkbox, or your image may be deleted. If we receive complaints about the image, and the Nudity flag is not set, it will be deleted. So, if you think someone might be offended by your image, be safe and hit the "Nudity" checkbox. There is NO mention in there of anything wrong with a non sexual nude that has a child in it. The galleries are FULL of this kind of work in the form of fairies and mother's with children. The second of these is what my image was in fact. I had two nude children playing on some steps and a third being walked away by the mother. The scene was a street scene in a classical-era city. So what gives? Why the double standards? Where's the clarity here...

Try it agian , this time add some swords, and just a few body jewels. niles

If people comment nicely I will leave this thread here. . . . The TOS also states that "(Any post or image can be removed at the discretion of staff if it is deemed unsuitable for this community)" Now before you lynch us for deciding what is "best" for the community you need to understand that we (moderators and admins) are presently drafting guidelines for images of nude children. Once we decide upon the appropriate guidelines, that are worded clearly, we will update the TOS. Plus, as you can understand, we must also consider what is in the best interest for Renderosity and what rules can be easily and consistently applied to everyone without discrimination. I appreciate your patience. smerc

Well rather than bicker I've simply gone ahead and posted the image to the Poser newgroup. alt.somethingoranother.poser... Under the title 'Street in Lomyr' for those who want to make their own judgement. I did find it a bit of a suprise since it was one of my few nudes that I felt was completely non sexual in subject matter. Remember that whatever guidelines you apply will have to be applied fairly and to everyone. There's a LOT of older stuff in there that shows underage nudes in the context of fairies or children and infants with family/mothers or even alone. Somebody's going to have to go through and delete them all. Or you're going to have to have clear guidelines on what kind of nude is or isn't ok.

"Remember that whatever guidelines you apply will have to be applied fairly and to everyone. There's a LOT of older stuff in there that shows underage nudes in the context of fairies or children and infants with family/mothers or even alone. Somebody's going to have to go through and delete them all. Or you're going to have to have clear guidelines on what kind of nude is or isn't ok." . . . That is exactly why we haven't rushed out some rules. smerc

hey arcady: I didn't even know there's a USENET Poser group...big thanks for the info!

Besides all those Victorian-style fairies (which practially litter the stationery stores), there are a whopping number of "Madonna and Child" images showing a naked boy on church walls and Christmas stamps (let's see Ashcroft and his ilk censoring the Post Office for mailing pornography on the OUTSIDE of the envelope!). Some of the Madonna images even show the kid nursing at a naked breast. Yikes! (Cover my eyes from such indecency.) Come February there are scads of Cupids fluttering around with everything (such as it is) hanging down as they search for victims to shoot (sex and violence, what a marketing link-up). All sarcasm aside, I realize that the owners of this Forum want to avoid being on either end of a lawsuit (I won't say "the wrong end", because defending artistic freedom is never wrong), however I would hope that common sense would prevail. Rockwellian kids at a fishing hole may be trite, but it is hardly obscene. Anybody getting prurient thoughts while thumbing a Christmas card has more problems than we can manage here. If we are going to go around smashing statues and flowerpots because they show happy little cherubs and draping copies of David (who was pre-teen IIRC) and shuttering church windows and closing museums, then I suppose the logical next step would be to tear down any image of a nude child, even if it is totally virtual. The nudity of children is often used in art to symbolize innocence, and it has held this role for centuries. If we take away that which is so emblematic of innocence, what do we have left? Carolly

So now I do have some bickering to do... If you don't have a new policy yet and my image did not violate the current posted policy why was it removed? As I said before; I even asked about this kind of image beforehand and was told it was not an issue.

Gee...you deserve a prize or something Arcady. You have to be the first person whose image was deleted because you broke rules that haven't been written yet and AFTER you specifically asked! At least I hope your the first.

That is just ridiculous. >:O|

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=684216

makes you wonder why so many moderators have jumped ship recently, maybe this has a little something to do with it, (canned worms and can opener at the ready), just remember while you're writing these new policies that a lot of people are potentially going to be really pissed and might just follow the ex moderators, that's not a threat by the way for those who don't speak english as a 1st language, it's just a statement. I wonder when all nudity is going to be banned, that's the next illogical step, or even worse when will all art be banned, I'm brushing up my nuspeak right now and it's doubleplusgood

Here's the solution to the problem: Whenever you post an image with a nude "child", just add a description saying that they are 400-year old "fairies" that just happen to look like children! Problem solved! It's not a "nude child" picture, it's a "fantasy" picture! I agree with some of the earlier comments- people get all upset when the words "nude children" are mentioned, yet there are plenty of images of "nude fairies" that look like pre-teens with wings! Will these images be against the rules also? Or will it be okay to post a "nude child" image as long as you tell people that it's a "fairy"? But, as hauksdottir said above, the pictures are meant to convey the innocence of children (by using young-looking figures). And, as she also also said: if people find these images to be "sexual", then they have more problems than we can talk about! As long as these pictures do not show the figure in a sexual situation (which IS against the TOS), why should we have a problem with it? --John

just like to point out that this is a FREE community, provided kindly by the people at renderosity and as such we have to abide by their rules. just like living at home.. and although sometimes it may seem unfair or unjust that a piece of your artistic freedom is whipped off because it's deemed unsuitable... isn't it up to them to decide what they allow on their site? there's absolutely nothing to stop you moving away from home and hosting your images on your very own site for free (angelfire yadda yadda)... just remember to come back and let us know where they areL as for the moderators.. give em a break. I don't think any of them are malicious or spiteful... hence why they were picked to be moderators. aight? :) Da Dolphy.. :D ting

It's all well and fine to abide by the rules. I'm all for that. So make the rules CLEAR! And apply them clearly and equally. As I have said, I asked on the nature of this image before making, the the URLs I posted above... If they came out with a rule today saying you could only post pictires of shaded red sphere's then I would say 'ok, that's the rule, that's what we post'. And I would expect all pictures of anything other than a shaded red sphere to be deleted. I would also raise an uproar if they let somebody post a blue sphere... But if post in a thread asking if I can make yellow triangles and get several answers in the affirmative; I take some offense when my yellow triangle is then deleted...

Also... apply the rules once they're made. Not when they haven't yet been stated to anyone. It might have been nice to know I would get deleted before I sat through 4 14 hours renders getting my image right... It might have been nice to have been told that instead of being told the subject matter I was doing was ok and part of a long standing human tradition in art; when I'd actually asked.

Dolphin the only problem with hosting a picture with a naked child on your own site is that within 24hrs you'll find your site gone and the police breathing down your neck because you've been distributing "child porn", these days it doesn't matter if the picture is something quite innocent or has been around for hundreds of years, you put a naked child in it and you're immediately branded as a pervert. I'm all for getting rid of the real perverts but I'm getting just a little sick of being told what I can and can't do with my software/hardware. Rob

Attached Link: news://alt.binaries.3d.poser

arcady I was trying to point out that certain people in charge may be thinking that your picture is "suspect" and instead of leaving it where it should be in the gallery they were giving in to the usual knee jerk reaction that always happens with cases like this. I agree that any picture that has sexual content involving children should be removed but nudity is not sexual and never has been, if it is going to be now lets go all the way and take down all art with nudity, lets start with the sisteen (not sure if that's spelt right) chapel, then maybe lets start with all art that doesn't have at least 1 person of ethnic origin in it, yes that's racist, but that's the point these non existent rules need to be 1000% clear and if your picture is not acceptable then all the rest need to go from the gallery too. We all need to sing from the same hymn book or it's all going to fall apart. Rob

C1rcle >> hmm.. I do appreciate it's disappointing and annoying. But I'm sure you can understand why this subject is such a touchy one.. some people find it extremely hard to distinguish between art and pornography. check the hot20.. not much clothing thereL

smerc, I appreciate you addressing this, yet at the same time I have a very large issue with what you said. I know you are working on new rules on child nudity, but those rules are not yet in place. With the removal of this image, the only thing we as a community can assume is that this image will break the new rules. I have seen this image and find nothing that would come close to child porn. Are we now to assume that any figure that seems to be young that has no clothing will be removed regardless of the subject matter? If this is the case, so be it. Renderosity will not die out like some poeple think. It will just become a place for art that is of a very low quality. Renderosity will no longer be the place to go to promote your work as a serious artist. It will become synonymous with low quality renderings. I'm not saying that anything not having nudity in it is low quality. I am saying that those of us that truely work at our art will no longer post here due to that fact that we feel that eventually it will break some future rule and no longer be allowed. The better way to handle this I believe would have been to leave the image up. It does not break any of the current rules. If someone bitches, well point them to the TOS also stating that the image does NOT break the rules. The rules are there not only to protect the viewer, but also to protect the artist. IF the artist is no longer protected then the true artsits will leave. There are many others that will stay but the quality will definatly suffer.

Ebot marker post. This is gonna get REAL entertaining. ;]

What really pisses me off is that I see other images of child nudity being posted even since my image was now twice deleted. There's an image in the thread mentioned above that has blatent frontal male genitalia of a child and it's been there for a good while now. The mods here are being reall asses on this one.

I only come here anymore when I need a laugh !

Gets out some popcorn and pulls up a chair<<<

Hey Ironbear ! Can I have one of those beers ?:^>

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=695818

Sure. slides icechest over to Badco ;]

The hypocrisy stems from the lack of rules and the statement that leads one to believe that it will break a future rule. If it isn't currently a rule, DONT ENFORCE THE DAMN THING! If it is a rule, ENFORCE IT FOR EVERYONE! I agree this is a private site, but if you want to keep the talent here you can't pull an image because it might break a rule that hasn't been made yet. This is rediculus! In some circles it would be considered unethicle. Does r'osity want claims of favoritism here again? Tell you what, forget posting any TOS about what we can't post, give us a TOS about what we can. It will be a much simpler and smaller document to manage.

It's especially hypocritical in light of me asking about the image BEFORE posting and getting a go ahead...

I'm going to have to cross the fence for just a second. The mods deleting Legumes image I think falls into the TOS. It wasn't the good doctors image to post. He didn't own that one, and for that reason only should it have been removed regardless of content. Now back over the fence on this one. The mods should be here for the protection of EVERYONE. If someone doesn't like an image and the image does not break the current rules the mods should just tell that person to don't look. It's real easy. The rule is already there that if the image contains nudity that the nudity flag should be set. If the flag is not set and it contains nudity than yes it can be removed for that reason. The artist can then re-submit and set the flag. If someone doesn't want to see nudity just filter those images. That's what it is there for! This action basically means that any nudity regardless of the flag being set will be deleted. The precident has been set. Nudity is no longer allowed here. Setting the nudity flag is an invitation to have your image removed sometime in the future.

I do not know why pictures are deleted here and why they aren't. Since the "Made in Israel"-story, I don't visit the galerys any longer. In my opinon, renderosity is a place to find wonderful people, to get help and to help others. It used to be a place for art, but for me, Renderosity has lost that status. Art and censorship do not fit well. Just my two cents.

.....Grabs a cold one and offers up some popcorn........

Man !!!! That Nero plays a mean fiddle ! Is it getting hot around here ?:^>

********** The admin went down to rosity, looking for some art to kill. He was in a bind cause he was way behind and he was ready to have a thrill. Artist on the board, better run boy run! Admins in the forum with the naked son! ********** Apologies to Charlie Daniels. Sorry I just had to do it after badco mentioned a fiddle.

The kin folks said, "Jed, move away from there!" they said, "The Poser Newsgroup is the place ya want to be !" So
they loaded up the trucks and left, Renderosity ! Censores that is, swimmin fools, dollar signs !

A newsgroup is not the same as the site is. But I will join the newsgroup. It's good to have options.

Lol, Anyone know how to clean coffee out of a keyboard? :)

You can check out the Poser NG Charter and the NewsGroup FAQ
to give you an idea. http://www.shar3d.com/

Shar3D is a supporting website for the NewsGroup. No one can delete your post on this newsgroup. No one ! Its like the old west ! You live by your wits !:^>
We have our problems like anywhere but your posts will never
be deleted at this newsgroup !

news:alt.binaries.3d.poser
(the Poser NewsGroup)

Kendra,

I had to break down and buy a darn keyboard cover ! hehe !

heh, the psychosis of the newsgroup is bleeding over here isn't it badco.

Somthing is bleeding over here and I get the feeling that the powers that be here, cannot stop it ! Every time I look around here, I see less and less familiar faces ! Its kinda
crazy that a guy asks permission to post an image and GETS that permission and then another MOD deletes the image ? No wonder Arcady feels like a yo yo ~

I tried to throw my last yo yo away but it kept coming back.

Same thing happened whith my boomarang !