This is not a rant nor do I want to start a flame war. My position: I love Poser, want CL to do well - most of all I want P5 to be fixed and stable. I am also very disappointed with all that has transpired thus far. Just wondering if this is an odd or even day. Its a strange thing. There is this ebb and flow of the "complainers" and the "blindly faithful". Before you jump on me keep reading. First I will say that I love Poser (4). I like that CL people make appearance in the forum, but I am also dismayed by their silence when bugs arise. A few days ago I posted a side by side comparison to demonstrate P5 problems. So you can label me as a complainer if you like. I was caught in a swarm of the faithful that wanted to say it was my machine or some lack of experience on my part. (Neither are the case). I could have spent several hours with the tweaks and all kinds of fiddling but I was trying to demonstrate that there are serious flaws and too much end user responsibility to correct them or work around - Meaning that in p4 things were virtually plug and play where P5 requires a whole lot of work just to achieve the same result as P4. I have recently read the post on the Law of 2 problem which had side by side comparisons where everyone looked at the pictures and (finally) admitted there was a problem and started to work it. Seems timing is everything. The post was labeled ".... -Has anybody noticed...." The author (as you may have read) was just showing texture mapping problems. This, in part, was the same as my post yet the response was wholly different.

So now on to my questions:
I'd like to know from those of you that have no problems:
A.) Do you believe it's just hardware difference between you and us that do? B.) Do you use Victoria and Michael or are you content with Judy and Don? C.) Have you tried doing animation or do only still renders? D.) Do you really push on the interface or just casually - (Are you a power user) E.) Have you tried to replicate the problems people report F.) If you are a casual user, do you only see problems that have been demonstrated? Meaning that you didn't realize it was a problem (thought it was normal) You see, for those of us with problems, they are not subtle. They hunt you down and rape you. We simply can not fathom that you guys aren't seeing it. For example: If you accidentally scroll or click the mouse wheel on my machine in the face room the app freaks out. Also it performs an illegal operation just about every other time I close it. I haven't been able to make the morph putty tool work in the face view in the pose room. Once in a while maybe the whole side of the mesh collapses like I hit her with a baseball bat. (Even when moving slowly and subtly.) I get C exceptions (mostly in materials room). I haven't even ventured into playing with hair cloth or collisions because of the problems I've seen so far. I did render a simple animation where the resulting uncompressed AVI (with a background image) it was pixilated badly. I thought my original idea of showing the side by side picture would have drawn much more support but I guess it was an ODD day. Few last thoughts: I am all for us working as a group to isolate problems (as a software developer its second nature). However I am extremely disappointed that we have to. We are not going to be paid for doing beta testing and problem investigation. If we are to detect and iron out all of these bugs CL should compensate us in some way - content, new CDs, way reduced upgrade prices.... something. I'd even take full disclosure or a letter of apology at this point. I'd like to see a list of all known bugs (post SR1) and regular status reports. Think that seems harsh or unreasonable? I have to do that with any defect my team discovers and my customers (users in the business) are not PAYING customers.

A.) Do you believe it's just hardware difference between you and us that do? No, I tend to think it is SW/OS related. Both CL and all the other things running on a system. That and the way OSs handle virtual memory and swapping to the HDD. B.) Do you use Victoria and Michael or are you content with Judy and Don? I have used the P5 ppl once. Not impressed. I use mostly the daz people. C.) Have you tried doing animation or do only still renders? Yes, they seemed to render out well, but most of the ones i did are in the cloth room. D.) Do you really push on the interface or just casually - (Are you a power user) Clarify that if you would. E.) Have you tried to replicate the problems people report Yes,or I see them myself on my system. I did find a fix'workaround for a particular Cauht expection error. (mail to CL and posted way too many times here.) F.) If you are a casual user, do you only see problems that have been demonstrated? Meaning that you didn't realize it was a problem (thought it was normal) Power user in the respect a normal image for me have upwards of 20 figures and props? Now some places in P5 I have not tried because I didn't care about them in the first place and still couldn't care less. (Face room,hair room,setup(been there in PP),Content.) I bought P5 for one thing really, raytrace, now there are those that say firefly is not that good, but compared to the normal P4 render engine, it's too cool. To date, since installing the patch to P5 all the posted renders i do are all in firefly. Some how it seems faster and looks better to me at least.

talley, i'd like to answer, but i can't. i didn't get through all the rooms - i simply don't have the time. p5 runs this far, i've tested mike & vicky (i don't want to use p5 people, but it's just the matter of taste, collected characters and morphs for m&v and invested money in their clothes). i've tested pose room and texture dept. posing is way slower then in p4 & ppp and for texturing, you know, i can't wait an hour for the flurryfluffy to finish rendering, then to notice, hmmm, i can do a bit more bump here, another hour, hmmm what is this for?, another hour, a bit more light here, another hour... since cl was unable to implement partial rendering - and i don't know any 3d software that would need it more badly - i simply can't wait that long. it goes way faster to pose my scene in p4, export to max, fix the textures and transparencies there and render full scene with a global illumination renderer. interface is slow and i noticed that not all windows stay put where i put them. but understand me correctly, as i said that before: you can't expect software this cheap to run good and fast. i would have payed three times (and probably more) the price if it would run as every other modern 3d application. but p5 is targeted to hobby market, so there you go...

Lalverson: By Power User I would say that you go beyond presets, try ambitious lighting and shadows, sets, poses, create and map textures, Do animation. I tend to see many renders that are 1 white light with a character on a simple set, or no background at all. I do see other work that looks amazing but it generally is ton's of photoshop postwork.

A.) Do you believe it's just hardware difference between you and us that do? I think it is possibly a combination of hardware and software differences, including such things as OS, drivers, other apps running in the background, etc. B.) Do you use Victoria and Michael or are you content with Judy and Don? Use both DAZ people and P5 People with no problems. C.) Have you tried doing animation or do only still renders? I have only done stills. D.) Do you really push on the interface or just casually - (Are you a power user) Not sure what you mean. If you mean have I clicked everywhere and customized my interface to my liking, then yes. I usually try to break software to see what not to do in the future. E.) Have you tried to replicate the problems people report Yes, I usually try just in case it was something I missed. F.) If you are a casual user, do you only see problems that have been demonstrated? Meaning that you didn't realize it was a problem (thought it was normal) Once that I know of. That was the problem with the power of 2 textures. As to your examples, I have tried to break the face room with no luck. My scroll mouse scrolls as it should. I never have gotten an illegal operation error in Poser. Morph Putty Tool in Pose room using Face camera -- It seems to almost work. I will grant you that I haven't tried the Morph Putty tool anywhere other than the face room until now. In the Pose room, it does seem unusable from a practical point of view. I haven't had it collapse the mesh yet though. I have gotten the C Exception error, but only when trying to render the Hydra with the included textures before I reduced the resolution. I wish my luck with the software would rub off on everyone else.

On your question D, now having seen your clarification. I have used different lighting setups with up to 27 lights, rendered a pic with 5 MilDragons and 5 Mikes. It was rather slow going, but it worked as expected. Haven't done any animation yet.

Aleks: Strange thing about price. Did you ever play with blender? Radiosity, Particles with life times/velocities gravity and wind, Vertex and spline modeling, intelligent volumetric light (detects holes in objects), bones/IK, and even an sequence editor to make avis.... It is free and only 2 meg in size. I've been toying with setting up victoria in it but the amount of work....ugh. But due to this P5 release I decided to bit the bullet and spend the money on Lightwave. I should have it on wednesday. (Hopefully I'll create some models for use in poser maybe earn back the money spent on LW and P5.)

About me... I am an animator so I have to pose zillions of times so I think I tend to put more strain on the interface. In the materials room I have noticed that if you tend to push it by adding subtracting moving, changing nodes that you alert the C exception demons to your presence. I have found the face room to be a bit of a wrestling match and sometimes the "apply shape" command take its inspiration from Dali as opposed to user input. I did manage to post a tip that helped others with symmetry but I have yet to achieve results that looked like the person I was trying to model. I wish they'd let you use any mesh in the face room. I know I could get V2 to align way before Judy will ever yield. Also I am anal about not having apps run in the background. Ask anybody who develops using MS Visual Studio and you'll know that for sanity's sake you keep a clean house.

1. dont think its only the hardware;os drivers other programs can also cause it 2) a bit with the p5 people ,but most with viccy 3) Most stills ,animation only in the clothing room 4 ) tried to replicate the bugs,but most of the i cant replicate here. had some rare c exceptions here,but after shutting p5 down and start again ,they were gone.Dont know what caused them.

I know what you mean about MS Visual Studio! The Face Room in it's present incarnation seems to be difficult at best to come up with a usuable face. I think a large portion of the blame falls on the mesh we have to use. Vickie or Mike could do a lot better I think, if CL and/or DAZ would allow it. Unfortunately, that is matter between them.

A power user? How about a 12 hour render. Qualify? I've never had the c exception, but then, I haven't used DAZ products. The only real problems I've had (excepting those that were solved by SR1) is a slow interface. I solved that by re-installing my Wacom tablet. Is the use of USB problematic with this software? Don't know. It worked OK when the tablet was re-installed. Do I blame the users or think they don't know what they're doing because they have these problems? Nope. I sympathise and wish I could help. But I've seen this all before with other apps and games. Haven't yet tried a formal animation. Others have. Have I tried to replicate problems. In most cases, I fail to see the point because of the nature of the problem. In others....ya sure.. As for being paid for "beta testing"....:) Good luck, Q

I sort of resent the idea that anyone who isnt screaming for blood - or who has no problems - is one of the "faithful". I am simply being honest about the situation as it works for me.

Anyway, here we go...

A.) Do you believe it's just hardware difference between you and us that do?

More likely some software compatibility issue. Possibly a bug or flew (or multiple of same) that is only demonstrable in some configurations.

B.) Do you use Victoria and Michael or are you content with Judy and Don?

I use Mike/Vicky most of the time right now. I spend a fair amount of time with Judy but I am under deadlines so I went to what I knew best when I had the chance.

C.) Have you tried doing animation or do only still renders?

Animation. Quite a bit of it in fact sine animations are the best way to handle the dynamics.

D.) Do you really push on the interface or just casually - (Are you a power user)

I spend a lot of time in Poser every day doing contract work, it is our primary character creation too. That's face, texture, clothing, props, body shape and posing.

E.) Have you tried to replicate the problems people report

When they give enough information to replicate it, and if I have time sure. I don't spend much time on "it crashes every time I close it!" because I close it without problems... every time.

F.) If you are a casual user, do you only see problems that have been demonstrated? Meaning that you didn't realize it was a problem (thought it was normal)

N/A

Just for fun, I tried some of your examples (running SR1) :

If you accidentally scroll or click the mouse wheel on my machine in the face room the app freaks out.

1. Load Poser
2. Go to face room
3. Click mouse wheel
4. Scroll mouse wheel
5. Use face room some
6. Click moue wheel
7. Scroll mouse wheel

No problem, no freaking out

I haven't been able to make the morph putty tool work in the face view in the pose room. Once in a while maybe the whole side of the mesh collapses like I hit her with a baseball bat. (Even when moving slowly and subtly.)

1. Load Poser
2. Load Judy (casual)
3. Go to face view
4. Go to morph putty
5. Manipulate in an extreme and abusive manner

No problem, no collapse.

I get C exceptions (mostly in materials room).

Haven't had any. I didn't play with it specifically for this post as I use it quite often and have never had it happen.

I did render a simple animation where the resulting uncompressed AVI (with a background image) it was pixilated badly.

Again, I didn't do anything specific for this post - but I have had no problems with AVI output.

Now, none of this makes you a bad person, nor am I calling you a liar- just to be clear. But it is obvious that these bugs are subtle and specific... tied to either hardware, software OR user error in some cases (usually renderer complaints).

A.) Do you believe it's just hardware difference between you and us that do? I believe that is part of it, but it is possible that software is involved. B.) Do you use Victoria and Michael or are you content with Judy and Don? I used vicky 2.0 and mike 1 for my latest pick. Vicky 2.0 for the one before that. I doubt I'll stop, but I really like judy(I think I'm the only one) even with out all the morphs. C.) Have you tried doing animation or do only still renders? I only do still, except now with the cloth room that requires minimum animation..I"ve gotten some good results from that. D.) Do you really push on the interface or just casually - (Are you a power user) I would say yes. I make my own textures when I can, and now I've been messing with the material room on everything. I pose myself unless they are just background figures, and never leave a light set un modified if I don't just do it myself. E.) Have you tried to replicate the problems people report yes and I was only able to do so with the mildragon before the patch, post patch the problems are gone.

then yeah, a power user.

A.) Do you believe it's just hardware difference between you and us that do? Both. I've seen people report BSOD's that others are not experiencing and I wonder about the OS and other programs that they may have installed which may have overwritten a standard MS dll, etc. Some definitely hardware, like under system specs. But there's also definitely bugs that need to be worked out. The SP1 fixed a bunch, but not all. B.) Do you use Victoria and Michael or are you content with Judy and Don? Have the lo res versions of victoria, michael, and steph. Haven't used the latter two yet. Been concetrating on Judy so far. C.) Have you tried doing animation or do only still renders? Did one animation to test out Mimic with Judy. I changed judy in morph manager and the patch said judy was not recognized and would not update her so that's a real bummer. D.) Do you really push on the interface or just casually - (Are you a power user) Yeah, I did. Oddly enough, the first day I had P5, there were tons of problems switching rooms, etc. After 3 or 4 reboots, some of those problems went away. The patch fixed a lot more. E.) Have you tried to replicate the problems people report Some were obvious to me, others never occurred. I did try and replicate a few like changing rooms too fast, etc. Quite frankly, there's not enough info on some of the problems to replicate. A handful of the complaints are so light on info that its kinda like a helo pilot walking up to a mechanic and saying "its broke, fix it" without giving even a hint of whether the mechanic should start with the tail rotor or the radio harness. F.) If you are a casual user, do you only see problems that have been demonstrated? Meaning that you didn't realize it was a problem (thought it was normal) No, I've seen them on my own and have posted a few times about that.