I like to take advantage of the artist community here by posting wips and also monthly challenges. I have learned to improve my images and techniques much faster and have picked up new skills along the way that are invaluable. It does really feel like a friendly community. Although I do get my feelings hurt easily, I have learned to take the negative criticism a little better. One thing I like to do is go to each member's gallery who responds to my post and see what kind of work they do, compare it to my own, to see the appraisal of my work in light of the abilities and talents of the artist doing the appraising. I have even learned from looking at their work to see Bryce in a new light. After all, each of us can only create with our own vision, so we sometimes don't see the possibilities and potential that Bryce offers. Seeing what others can do with Bryce lets me see things out of my own box. Something has me puzzled, though. Sometimes someone will add to a wip thread, and it tends to be of the "everything is wrong with this image sort" with no real help for improvement. Almost invariably, when I click on their names, no posts. Nada. Zilch. So since I built this soapbox, I'll make my speech: If you have joined Renderosity as a member, welcome. If you want to participate in the Forums, great! There's room for everybody here. Really. And you can say anything you want to here, as long as it is within the guidelines that are ably enforced by Agent Smith and Clay. Even things I don't want to hear. But if you want me (and I think the same is true for many of the others that post art to the forum) to take your criticism seriously, you must post work of your own so I can see you know what you're talking about. Look at it like this: if you want to learn about art, you would go to an artist whose work you admire. Not to a plumber, not to a doctor, not to a lawyer (unless they were also artists). I like to think of this a place to give and receive advice rather than criticism. Maybe if you're not an artist and just like art and want to share your feelings with others, you should post comments in the galleries. That is the place where that type of thing is most appropriate. Finally, if you are an artist, and just afraid that your pics are not good enough to post, post them anyway. Considering some of the things I've seen posted here at Renderosity, your stuff is not that bad, trust me. And I promise to be gentle with my comments. Or just to stay silent when I don't have anything constructive to say.

Yup :)

Couldn't agree more.

Bravo! I got panned by a guy with just a username. No gallery, nada. A thread search showed he had a habit of coming in and bombing newsgroups from time to time. I found his gallery on another site from a thread he posted. It was half a dozen of the poser females rendered with green glass materials and lots of broadswords. (I wonder what Freud would say.)The kind of stuff you do when you first get the software and start messing with materials. The thing is he started spouting stuff about DOF etc and I actually took him seriously until I actually saw his work. I tried his suggestions and discarded about half of them because I didn't like the results. He criticized but he never said, " PhilC has a tutorial about this that will fix it". I found out about focal length and using jels on lights from researching his complaints. I've since used both but he's probably still cranking out frozen babes and extremely exaggerated phallic symbols. I try never to say something bad about someone's work without saying something good or having a solution. Let me just say then that they were most impressive broadswords although using them in the manner he did on his frozen babes will not make him very popular on dates. The SCA (Society for Creative Anacronism) can help teach the correct use of a sword and probably help with anger management so he wont have to get his jollies trolling in newsgroups. There, Ive helped!

Hmm, to post or not to post....... Well, if you've clicked my name (since I've posted here), then you'll find "no posts. Nada. Zilch." Don't think I've panned anyone's work, but if you want to see my stuff, IM me and I'll send you a URL. Normally I just show it to people in the chat area because I prefer a more interactive sort of feedback. And I do understand your point.

Tjohn you made a point and hit a nerve. We (willem and madeleine) love to get reactions on our efforts to create something nice. Pro's or con's doesn't matter, honesty does! We also visit the persons gallery to see what his/her 'face' looks like. We feel that art is always a selfportrait and says a lot about the artist who makes it. Getting comments from someone who has no 'face' feels a bit like getting tabbed on the shoulder in the dark. Seldom we receive a comment from someone without a 'face' but when we do we cant communicate and that is a frustrating feeling.

I am a member who posts quite regularly in the poser forum, just lurk here most of the time, because I feel that mostly I can find out what I need by checking other posts. Also check the galleries frequently. Some of the stuff there is offputting, in as much as I could not do as well. One image I had spent absolutely ages on, and was quite pleased with, then found an image by Hobbit, and thought that my image could be construed as a bad imitation, so never finalised and posted. I find that most of the feedback I get on the images I do post is very helpful and constructive, perhaps I am lucky.

I completely and vigorously disagree. The idea that only artists can express a meaningful criticism on a picture is totally wrong. Let's take an analogy from another art. I can't play the piano, I never learned it. But I can certainly tell the difference between bad piano playing and good playing. Are you telling me I'm not entitled to an opinion on a pianist's performance just because I'm not one myself? Come on! The important difference is between constructive and non-constructive criticism, and it doesn't matter WHO the person making the criticism is. The only influence being an artist or not might have is in some quite narrow technical areas, where the non-practioner might not realise the technical limitations of the technique being used. But the idea that no-one can express an opinion without previously exposing work of their own is, to my mind, quite hateful.

I think if you want criticism then post a WIP.You then have to decide whether you think that person has a valid point of view.Their gallery is a good starting point.Having said that some people do feel intimidated (after seeing hobbits work who i'snt)about gallery entries,thats human nature.A certain member last month slated everyones monthly challenge and hence created a lot of traffic to his gallery,I suspect.Do I take any notice - thats up to you to decide

Phantast: I don't think anyone is suggesting people should be disallowed from making comments if they don't have work of their own, I think it's more that it can leave a bad taste if some faceless wonder nit-picks over a piece but denies you the opportunity to judge whether or not they know what they're talking about. I've got to admit, though, there are 1001 things that my fellow community members do (or don't do) that get right up my ass, but I tend to keep my trap shut because it takes all sorts to make a world and with this in mind, I think Rendo and all its members do a great job of keeping it all running as smoothly as it does. Keep up the good work, y'all. :)

"it can leave a bad taste if some faceless wonder nit-picks over a piece but denies you the opportunity to judge whether or not they know what they're talking about" Au contraire. You can tell if they know what they are talking about by what they say. Are the criticisms valid and constructive? That is the only thing to judge.

I can take an, "I think its too dark" kind of comment. I have before and will again. I said nothing about Draculaz comments. He said I was an amateur. I have only had this particular program 5 months now. I am an amateur! no doubt about it. But draculaz also has a gallery, which gives his technical comments validity. Ive looked at his work, respect it, and have even stolen from it. I'm not necessarily happy but willing to listen to comments from non artists. I feel art should say something to the viewer. If I do a negative work I should expect negative criticism. The two sides of this coin are though I feel Mapplethorpe is a better artist than Warhol, I would much rather have Campbells Soup to look at than Piss Christ. I'm saying this to establish the distinction between content and technical ability. The person I am commenting on passed himself off as an artist not a layperson. Had the same kind of critique come from Rochr I would seriously consider selling my software and taking up another line of endeavor. PhilC, Conan, DAZ, and curious labs would be $1000 poorer, and I would not be writing in this thread now. Trolls want the reaction. They come to the newsgroups to vent because they are afraid to deal with their real problems. Responding at the time just causes ulcers and gives the troll his needed lift. Im not saying there is a solution and we should ban all but PC comments. The solution is Im not going to respond to them when they need their fix. Im just telling tjohn, Is the troll right or wrong in your paticular case? I absolutely 100% don't care!I hear you. Ive been there. Its nice to hear a little sympathy from people whose opinions we do respect.

"You can tell if they know what they are talking about by what they say. Are the criticisms valid and constructive? That is the only thing to judge." Well, yes and no. I agree that specific issues can be addressed this way, irrespective of the calibre of artist commenting, but because I always invite criticism of my stuff I personally like to know how good the person is who's passed opinion, especially if it's negative. Example: I recently got a comment (not here) from a well-known artist to the effect that he liked my art but "why not take more care over each piece?" I took that in the manner it was intended and I think it helped me a lot. But if I got the same comment from somebody whose gallery was full of ice-cream mountains I would probably discard it as being a troll. I do think it takes a talented artist to know somebody else's capabilities just from seeing a few of their works. But I do reiterate that I find constructive comments from EVERYONE helpful! ;) And this is probably not the time to lament that the number of people commenting in the galleries seems to have been dropping sharply recently... 8>o

On the other hand, a comment posted here on a picture of mine went "default textures and shotty [sic] idea overall". I don't care what are the picture-producing capabilities of someone who says this, because as criticism, it's dumb. In the first case, the picture in question didn't use default textures (so it wasn't a perceptive remark). In the second case, "shotty idea overall" is not exactly constructive. In the third case, the picture in question (as I admitted when I posted it) was done in a hurry. It had a number of weaknesses which I was well aware of, but didn't have time to correct. This "critic" didn't make any of the quite valid criticisms that could have been made, but came up with that little "gem" instead. So I don't need to know anything about the person who posts such a remark, the remark speaks for itself.

Well, I can see both sides to this argument. On one hand, crticism from the average joe can be valuable. But, it's typically more scattered than an artist's criticism. So though it is valuable, it is often less useful than the criticism of another artist. An artist can typically offer a critique that is more efficient. An artist should be able to idnetify the intention and concept of the work and offer help to get the piece to achieve that goal. It's just more focused and for that reason often more valuable. When I ask for commentary online and get it, I will first read the commentary. If I agree with it, I'll heed it right off. But, if I don't agree with it, I'll look at the commentor's credentials (their art). Should I find no art, I'll ignore the comment. If I think that their work sucks, then I'll go with my gut and dismiss the comment. If I like their work (of if I don't personally like it but it's still good art), then I'll review their comments and reconsider what was said. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I think it offers a forum-goer an incentive to put up some of their art and bolster their credibility.

Well, I don't know whether or not to start keeping a list of members who don't want comments from people who aren't 'artists' or who don't have a gallery. On the one hand, I take time to study an entry I make any comments on and then I am as specific as possible. I also never say anything negative unless I can also say something positive. This kind of feedback takes time and is harder than it looks. Several people seem to have appreciated my efforts and have even occasionally used my suggestions. On the other hand, I am still learning Bryce, haven't much time to use it and often know very few tricks to make better/more interesting pictures. In addition to my few challenge entries, I have maybe a handful of projects I've done mostly as practice. They are pretty standard building/island/lake sort of pictures, so I haven't bothered with a gallery. Finally, part of my job is graphics work. Does that give more credibility than someone who is unpaid? Or less because the sort of graphics work I do is not 'cutting edge' but instead has a retro feel to it (there are people who think it is terrible). Does the fact that I'm designing things to meet my boss's ideas and requirements make me unfit for critiquing 'real art'? Does my lack of formal art school mean that I can't look at a picture and say 'I find that tree distracting, was that intentional?' Getting negative comments is never easy, but comments like 'this is nice' don't help me to improve. What to do, what to do. No easy answers here, so I'll tell you what I would like. 1) If you don't want my comments on your pictures, let me know and I'll put you on my 'no feedback' list. 2) I would like at least one person, I don't care how new or experienced they are, to give me specific feedback. I liked the comment on how I tend to use prefabricated textures. Even though I do tweak them, I hadn't realized they stood out so much. 3) Maybe we should consider a 'guidelines for feedback' area. If people had clear suggestions on what to say and how to say it, maybe there would be more good commenting all around. Lin

Phantast: "I completely and vigorously disagree. The idea that only artists can express a meaningful criticism on a picture is totally wrong." I did not say this, I said: "I like to think of this a place to give and receive advice rather than criticism. Maybe if you're not an artist and just like art and want to share your feelings with others, you should post comments in the galleries." I said nothing about non-artists not commenting or criticising, only that they may not be doing so in the most appropriate place. A very big difference as I see it. Phantast: "Let's take an analogy from another art. I can't play the piano, I never learned it. But I can certainly tell the difference between bad piano playing and good playing. Are you telling me I'm not entitled to an opinion on a pianist's performance just because I'm not one myself?" Again, nothing I said is repesented here, I said: "Look at it like this: if you want to learn about art, you would go to an artist whose work you admire. Not to a plumber, not to a doctor, not to a lawyer (unless they were also artists)." I'll put this another way using a musical analogy. If I wanted to learn to play an instrument I would go to a musician and not a music critic. Whether or not the critic likes my playing has nothing to do with why I am learning from the musician. And of course I do believe that every person alive is entitled to an opinion. But there are appropriate places to express that opinion, and the Bryce Forum may not always be the appropriate place. My opinion is, this Forum is a place for artists to interact with other artists as a community, not to interact with art critics. The galleries are for the commentary and opinions or everyone (including non-artist art critics)that goes there. I'm not angry with anyone anywhere about anything. I wasn't trying to get anyone to curb free speech, just avoid wasting their breath. Also, for the record, I don't think anyone purposely misrepresented my words, maybe my meaning wasn't clear as it could have been. Hope it is clearer now. :^)

Attached Link: http://uk.geocities.com/bryster3d

Sadly, it will always be the case that some critics don't know what they are talking about, and some do. Some have done the apprenticeship and some haven't. It's up to you to choose. I actually hate one art critic (nothing to do with this forum) just because of the way he talks. That's MY problem, and nobody else's. In the end you take crit from those you respect and they tend to be people who have earned that respect. And if their crit is constructive so much the better. They may even have spotted something you didn't. Go figure... The Bryster