I can't do anything about this year's AOY. However, I can offer alternatives for next year. 1). Why can't we have one award voted on by the PTB (mods & Admins or a distinguished panel of judges or whatever) and one "People's Choice" award voted on by the members? 2). Obviously aesthetic values are important but there is more to art than just one's ability to manipulate lightness, darkness and hues. Some people here make very powerful statements and evoke strong emotion through other means. Some among us use music, humor, storyline, or words. I'd also like to point out that since we have animators and writers here, it would be fair to find some way to recognize outstanding work by them, too. 3). Maybe there should also be a category for those who contribute to the overall well-being of the community. As much as I appreciate the imagery in the galleries, I think some - like geep and little_dragon - deserve recognition for their outstanding contributions to the knowledge base of the community. 4). I also believe it would be fair to recognize outstanding moderators! The most important thing would be to clearly define what the awards are for - I've noticed that the term "Artist Of The Year" has been interpreted differently by different individuals. That's not intended as a negative statement - just an objective observation. If none of these ideas work, maybe someone could create a ring for each one of the Mods, Admins, and Members and then secretly create one ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them.

well, aoy, as usual, turned out to be all about those artists competing in the poser category. lighting and postwork are terrific skills. however, in cg, i also think the artist who can make the best meshes...from scratch, should count, too. i'm a bit of a purist. if you can make the meshes you are using for your art....great, good for you. if you are good at texturing these models...even better. if you can put together all of the elements you created...in a visually thought provoking, or, pleasing way...honey, you've got my vote. as for my thoughts on postwork...less is more. just my two pennies, tonight.

I think these are great ideas...nothing that I can think of to add or change...works for me..:) Melissa

Working with meshes could easily be compared to sculpture. I'm not saying it is exactly the same, but still it's dealing with a representation of actual form. Sculpture is art. I agree, it is worthy of extra recognition. In all honesty I hadn't thought of texturing before but now that you mention it... There really are a number of skills around here that are worthy of recognition.

There really are a number of skills around here that are worthy of recognition. yes, i do think there are. but, it has come down to who is best at postwork, or, shock value, in their graphics. to me, the modellers are the unsung heroes. followed very closely, by the texture makers. but, that's just me. have i ever mentioned that i think poser could be another axis of evil? :*)

Iraq, North Korea, and Poser. Things that make you say, "Hmmmm."

Okay, these all sound like like pretty good ideas, but, who exactly are we supposed to be voting for in 2003? Although I know there are artists that are way beyond my artistic comprehension, I still feel the need to be guided in my voting to ensure the corporate bottom line. Since I don't have much of a brain to speak of, I feel more of a need to be told how to think, so that I can free up some more time for my GameBoy.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am taking these to the admins for discussion... it will probably take a few weeks before you hear from us. thanks tammy

Trouble with targetting specifics is that good software and peripherals will always win the day. I'm far from being a brilliant artist, but give me 10K to spend on Max, an A3 Wacom and a few painter packages and I'll take the Pepsi challenge with anyone. As it is, my meshes are basic, my postwork so-so and my scenes relatively simple. That's why I always advocate looking at the art itself, not the technical merits.

tuttle...i really like your stuff. and, i like eric claeys...my pick....there actually is good work, here, if you can get over the grandstanders. and, no machine can replace being born with talent. period. a graphic should sing to its viewers. i could model a wonderful space module, with all the widgets, whistles, and bells...post it...and, those who are into widgets would be very impressed...but, would it impress those of us who like a bit of feeling? i think not. p.s. i lied...i could not make such a model. i have not acquired the skills, needed. just an example.

Mongo, That's what I'm trying to think of a way to avoid. Right now I'm seeing that there are a lot of angry people in this forum. I know emotion and different points of view are normal in any group of people. I also know that where ever there are 2 or more people, there are politics. Period. I'm trying to take the next step - a step towards problem solving. I'm trying to figure out a "win-win" solution - acknowledging that politics, different points of view, different values systems - are part of the equation. Suggestion #1). offers one possible way of taking care of both "the corporate bottom line" -and- any desire that you or I as a member might have to vote for whoever we want. I can't actually tell if Legume or Toxic Angel or Monet or Michaelangelo or Da Vinci or Picasso or Boris Vallejo or Berke Breathed (the Bloom County cartoonist) is the better "artist". They each have different styles and messages. I've ohhhed and ahhhed over at a number of things I've seen by each of them. Their work has impacted me in different ways. For that simple reason I pointed out that it's critical that the criteria for selection be published before any kind of vote by anyone. Tuttle, I have Lightwave, a Wacom, and Painter. I suck as a still artist. My animations aren't necessarily pretty either but I try to use original music and storyline to create a "whole" that accomplishes the same thing still artists try to accomplish. I agree very much about looking at the art itself. It's just so hard to agree on a definition of "artist" around here. Some would say it is based on someone's technical merits. Some would say otherwise.

"i could model a wonderful space module, with all the widgets, whistles, and bells...post it...and, those who are into widgets would be very impressed...but, would it impress those of us who like a bit of feeling? i think not. " Exactly! :) So if there was an award for modelling, it could well go to somebody with plenty of time on their hands but not much artistic talent. Which was my point about specifics. "I have Lightwave, a Wacom, and Painter. I suck as a still artist. My animations aren't necessarily pretty either but I try to use original music and storyline to create a "whole" that accomplishes the same thing still artists try to accomplish." :) I get what you're saying, but I don't think I made my own point very well, hence the confusion. I wasn't suggesting that a significantly less talented person could beat a more talented person by just buying more s/w and gadgets, rather that, given two people of roughly equal talent, the one with more resources would almost certainly win a contest based on specifics (e.g. modelling, texturing). I don't suppose there's much can be done about this, but I think that taking a step back and making a contest about just "art" - no explanation - may help, rather than concentrating on, say, modelling or lighting or realism.

but the more we learn, the more we look at the galleries with different eyes. since i've learned a bit of modelling, i look more at EVERYTHING that makes up the whole. or, i will click on something, just because i more closely want to examine a part of it. there are so many vicki's in the temple...and, for the most part, they are all pretty....it is the lighting, modelling, texturing, or pov of the camera that make one much more intriguing that the next.

Not to be left out, I'm doing a Vicky in a Temple right now. And I'm not even joking. There's no punchline. That's it. Like death, it must come to us all. But I hope I'm not tempting fate to say my Vicki will be just a little different... ;)

and, me...i'm workin' on vicki in the snow with a sled...i may put some sort of building in the background, for balance, though.

A snow-covered temple, obviously.

I just bough my first Vicky. It'll be a little while but I do plan on doing a temple picture. Of some sort. Thanks for clarifying, Tuttle. I misunderstood what you meant. I agree about the "specifics" now that I understand better. I was thinking more like the academy awards where a number of different awards are presented. That way more of the talent around here can be recognized. You'd have the AOY, and People's Choice, and then recognition for specific skills. It's an idea.

Poppi,
While it's true that modelers and texture artists do help other artists obtain their vision, it's very much a symbiotic relationship, because honestly there are very few people who have the talent to create it all. Nowadays to be an artist in 3D, one is expected to be a set designer, fashion consultant, stunt coordinator, doctor (for the anatomy), mechanical engineer, landscaping wizard, etc, etc, etc. Most people aren't that, or like tuttle said, don't have the time or the resources to be that. I do think there is some merit in separating them out though. Perhaps we should have the Rosy Awards instead of the AoY. We could have best modeler, best texture artist, best scene creation, best adaptation from fiction, best portrait artist, etc, etc. Just a thought...

And a note to tuttle, I think you are a brilliant artist, very original and your works are very well crafted. Don't sell yourself short...

ShadowWind

Now I feel bad. I've had Poser a year and haven't done a Vicky in a temple. I did a Vicky in a forest river, does that count??

"And a note to tuttle..." Thanks ShadowWind, but you might want to reserve judgement until you see my Vicky in a temple... ;]

i like the idea of the rosy awards. and, i think we should address the issue of clone accounts in voting...and, having offsite groups who really don't participate here, voting. Nowadays to be an artist in 3D, one is expected to be a set designer, fashion consultant, stunt coordinator, doctor (for the anatomy), mechanical engineer, landscaping wizard, etc, etc, etc. Most people aren't that, or like tuttle said, don't have the time or the resources to be that. now, this statement, i don't know about. there are a number of free modelling programs...amapi 4.15 was the first one that actually "clicked" with me. and, i think, all who post to the poser gallery have photoshop/psp/and, or photoimpact. it is so much fun to make that first texture, that's "yours". and, i don't mean with an eye on the marketplace. just with an eye on stating who you are...and what you like. it doesn't take alot of resources to create your own stuff from scratch. it takes time, yes....and, devotion, yes, yes, yes. but there are so many folks who have the time to do their 3 render quota to gallery, constructed from stuff that others...who may only post to gallery a time or two in a year....that 3 render a day time could be used to further one's knowledge. i'd sure rather spend my time learning a new skill, than using it making vicki in temple renders. in my opinion...neither legume, nor, toxic angel deserves the aoy award. they both have merely done what has been done many times before. perhaps, a bit better than all the others in the poser gallery who post such similar things...but...there is a phrase, here....and, my english is quitting on me. must've been that second beer. and, what about an award for folks like codetwister...the tailor....kozaburo, wonderful free hair models, schlabber with his poses, serge with his dresses....ecstasy, with her gorgeous freestuff textures? maybe this aoy has been over done, and, should start fresh as a new yearly recognition to those who have really CONTRIBUTED to the poser community. but, no...it boils down to "clone" accounts, and friends stuffing ballots. what a comment on our society. trying to sneak through on the finish line...without trying to "grow", as an artist kind of, in my book, discredits one as an artist. art is about growth. sure, you can make some money with it. but, you can make some money panhandlling, as well. art, to me, is being able to say..."look...i made this. i love it (today). tomorrow, i may learn some new stuff and kind of hate it." renderosity is supposed to be "all about the art"...but, i don't see any changes to that effect. this is all very shoddy and sad.

I don't want to turn this into another "What is art?" discussion, I do want to point out that growth can come in many different ways, not just the progression of renderer->texturer->modeler as you seem to infer Poppi. To me, growth is learning all you can in the discipline that you have chosen, not necessarily learning 20 disciplines. Certain doctors become specialists in a particular field like Cardiology, but that does not make them any less of a doctor than a person who's speciality is Pediatrics. Again, it is just a different discipline. One that can be shared when needed.

I tend to think of art in the way the film studios do, especially animated films. A single cel of animation is generally created by a whole staff of artists from different departments. The character designer, the director, the lead animator, the inbetween artists, the ink and paint artists, the cleanup artists, the effects wizards, etc. They all work together to create a vision. Did you know it was not Walt Disney that really designed Mickey Mouse, but fellow animator Ub Iwerks?

In real life films, they do the same thing, whatever doesn't have to be created to fit the director's vision, isn't. Often this is case of resources and practicality, much like we are saying here. The director isn't going to create a briefcase (or even have one made) when they can buy one. The audience doesn't judge a movie on what was created and what wasn't. It is judged on the vision behind the movie and thus too is 3D art. Besides the director himself doesn't build the prop, he has artists, designers, architects, etc, to help him out. The carpenter is also not usually the one painting the building...

That, to me, is what makes art that I enjoy, the vision, not how they got there and I don't slight any artist for using a pre-created prop to complete his/her vision under the rules of the licenses, etc.

Now I do think that comparing rendering to modeling is like comparing apples and oranges and that is why I would definitely support some sort of categorized awards, rather than a single artist. But that does not mean I think that artists should be considered less worthy of recognition because their vision required a prop that they did not have the resources or the time to create themselves.

You know there are a good number of modelers who aren't into rendering, so the pendulum swings from both sides.

Anyway, besides if everyone created their own textures and models, that would put the whole industry that you participate in, as well as others, out of business....

ShadowWind

What is the difference between art and craftsmanship? Many images here are beautiful but, in the end, they are just pretty pictures. I would consider the authors of those images craftspeople, and not necessarily artists. OTOH, Legume's work, while not always technically brilliant, (I haven't looked at his gallery lately though) is usually thought provoking. That is why I consider him an artist. I consider myself an artist NOT because I can model, or texture, or light something, but because I can (hopefully) design a space or structure to invoke a feeling or thought. I strive for realism in my images because it makes my imaginary place easier for the viewer to accept.(I realize my work here still borders on craftsmanship based on my own definition, but thats because Im an architect. The space/building/set design IS my goal.) Just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

Art is what art is, many things to many people, perceived by the masses in different ways. What strikes a chord in people can be something that is pretty and/or thought provoking. I'm often surprised what makes people feel. I've always said that one could probably write a dissertation for college based on studying the perception of images here. It is a bit shortsighted to say someone is a craftsperson because their particular brand of artistic expression is not one you would consider valid to your own thoughts IMO.

That feeling of controversy that dwells up emotions in people is no different than any other image that dwells up emotions, though they may be quite different emotions. There is a saying that says, "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." Well, joy is certainly an emotion, as well as sadness, hatred, etc. We are all artists in our own ways, and I think we should respect that, even though we may not care for the other person's work, that they too are artists to the people that follow them. I don't even think anyone is really arguing whether Doc is an artist or not in all this. I think most of the argument there revolves around whether the art that he does is representative of the community as a whole, a banner that may not fit any artist really for the same reason I mentioned above. I don't mean that to be insulting to anyone at all, I just mean that with 100,000 minds, there is hardly going to be a consensus as to what does represent this community as a whole.

My 2c added to the other 2c
ShadowWind

Artist vs. Craftsman Interesting question because I almost used that terminology. My beloved wife is a custom dressmaker. At times she works with fashion designers, at times she works with directly with her customers. I consider her a Master Craftsman for these reasons: If her client (or the designer) as some Idea of what they want, she creates it. She makes suggestions. Her workmanship - the way the materials are put together, the way they are sewn, especially the way they fit - is impeccable. She is awesome. She doesn't at all like working from nothing - from a blank piece of paper. The designers do (although yes, they borrow others' ideas quite often). She hates when customers don't know what they want. They like to come up with things from scratch. Thus I'd say at one extreme a craftsman is someone who specializes in the construction of something. In our universe (the visual arts) it might be someone who understands lighting in 3D apps or texturing - even someone who models (if they're modeling someone else's idea). A designer (at the other extreme) starts with a blank page and develops the overall concept. Now, a modellor can be a designer, a lighting person can be a designer, a texturer can be a designer. My wife essentially designs with her clients but more in terms of modifying or improving their preexisting ideas. Neither a craftsman or a designer is better. As a matter of fact, Hollywood and the big Madison Avenue agencies use both. It's obvious that some people can do both aspects. However, some people take great pride in creating the idea, and some take great joy in technically realizing it. Art is best when it's got excellence in both types of skills represented. A photographer who has an eye for composition and understands how film and lenses works so he or she can capture exactly what he or she wants with the desired look, a painter who understands both how to select and compose a desired subject and then knows how best to use Oil or Watercolor and canvas or paper to capture that vision permanently. There is an Art to being a craftsman as well as an Art to being a designer. I get the impression that Poppi believes it's best when both are present in an image. I agree 100%. I also am aware that not everyone has equal amounts of both skills. I think both types of skill are worth recognizing as a community. [Note: I didn't at all say Poppi doesn't appreciate those of us who don't manifest both skills!] The ability to conceive an image is a gift. So is the technical ability to create it (or its componants). IMHO anyone who does either well is an artist. And to be able to do both.... Sigh, I wish I could. For the sake of time, I'll try to not get going on music, motion, or the use of words. Happy New Year!

why not just stop voting and rating and judging art......art is not to be judged....it comes from a persons soul and if it means something to them then it served it's purpose