A couple of days ago, someone suggested I write a Poser 5 book. Hardly literary, but then again it would be an original work. What do you all think? Would such an undertaking be valuable? Can the market stand and/or does it need another POser 5 book? I'd welcome your thoughts. ;-) Anthony Hernandez

Anthony I guess the Idea is pretty good, but to make another Poser 5 book will be greater if you are planning to release something special that was not mentioned in other books, in other words, I bet you will going to make an original poser 5 book, and if you can enlight us with some tricks to use better poser 5 will be pretty cool. From my point of view, Go For It!!! :)

Of course, I forget the most important question: Would any of you buy it?

Yes I will do it! :)

I would, for sure! - I'd especially like to see step-by-step exhamples of how so many spectacular effects and renders are accomplished. Lots and lots of pics and screen-shots, please?

LGm if I write this book, you'll need a forklift to carry it! ;-) A

But Anthony didn't you write the Poser5 handbook already? Over here we have a series of books titled "an idiots guide", an idiots guide to Poser5 would sell well :)

Yes, i think i would buy.There are so many things comming a bit short in the handbook. Yes and a big part with tips and tricks.

Please write it! I'll worry about the forklift rental later.A definate purchase from me.

I think it would be a good idea. I'd say talk more about using the features, what the little settings do, etc. In the manual, hardly anything is talked about the cloth room, and some settings aren't even mentioned. So really delving into the material would be great, and yes, I would purchase it.

If the level of detail is greater than currenty available, yet easy to follow and understand, then I would definitely want the P5 book. Like Leather-guy said... lots of illustrations, please. Sometimes a picture explains so much more than a cold technical paragraph.

Put me on your list of customers, Nos'. I'd do backflips to see a poser book that was actually helpful...and a Poser 5 book at that?!! Bet yer sweet...er, you know...

Add me to the list of potential buyers. Tips, tricks, and troubleshooting guides are always welcome too. Shortcuts and what to do when--- There is so much left out of the original manual. I think a lot of us are hungry for more information.

I might... Not sure Anthony. I would want to see and have a very good idea of the contents first. Q

Ditto what quixote said.

Text? Text??? I don?t need no stinking text instrtuction. (A play on The Good, The Bad and the Ugly). Just give me the step by step examples. I don?t care about the price. If it will help me to navigate and use all the power that Poser has to offer, I will buy the book. I will even rent the forklift to move the book about if it is going to be voluminous. When you have to work with five to eight different applications a day and each with their own laborious rollouts, you just don?t have time to be reading another text driven ?How To? book. (Now retiring from the pulpit)

I would if it were along the lines of Susan Kitchens'a Real World Bryce!

Anthony, Hey I don't see why not. With your unique perspective it's bound to be a hit. Besides I remember someone saying to me once that it is best to write about what you know. I'm for it! - TJ

Anthony, I would consider buying if, as others have mentioned, it's presented in an effects-based, tutorial, step-by-step fashion...that covered the effects I'm interested in. I'd definately need to see the TOC and a sample first. Some other ideas: - wirebound (or similar binding) so you could place the thing flat on a surface without needing a brick - a "utilities" CD that would assist the user in implementing the items covered in the book (e.g., py scripts, MAT/MOR poses, etc.)

I know this is going to sound weird to think about, but consider about if you are going to want this distributed to libraries or not. I agree that a book that lays flat is nice, but wire bound books are not enthusiastically welcomed by libraries because of the difficulty of keeping them shelved in the right place. They are also a big pain because the wires work loose (either naturally or with help from destructive little hands), get caught on things, and the book doesn't hold up with use (the pages start tearing as they are pulled against the wires). Be sure the book doesn't depend a 100% on a CD (it would be better if there was a stable website to link to) because, inevitably, CD's get lost, stolen or damaged, especially in a public library setting. And you will want this in libraries because it would be a good reference tool for them, and people who see a book in a library, and like it, will often buy it for their own collections. At least I do. :)

Bind it any way that means pages don't fall like leaves in autumn, like the Poser 4 manual, if you actually look at it more than once (I can't recall how many chapters I read - two or three? of the P4 book before it started shedding pages).

Then you could respond here in the forums with RTM or BTM. If it is a better mousetrap it will be bought. What price point are you looking to achieve?

If the book was written like most good Lightwave books (an step-by-step to get to an end render with screen shots and settings for all boxes), then it would sell. Definitely write a book at Daz Studio... even though it has no release date and is probably a year or two away from actual realease. Yeah, that's a good idea.

I would purchase a book on Poser 5. These are some of the things I would put on my "wish list" Rather than just a "how to" book I would like something like a book called "3d Studio Max FX". It is a book full of Fx tutorials. It includes a cd that also has all the files and correct settings to make the effects. When you purchase the book you are actually purchasing all the scenes and their settings. I'd like more info on the P5 Effects stuff like cloth, hair, atmospheres, lighting dynamics etc. You could put lots of screen captures and images on the cd and keep your printing cost lower. ..... Maybe some of the top merchants would do a trade of their work and settings for links to their merchant sites. People don't mind paying for something that they actually get the scene info.... Good Luck on your venture.

I'm with leather-guy

Yes. Examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples, examples. Examples! Every render MUST MUST MUST have a screenshot of ALL ALL ALL the parameters that went into making it.

I didn't read through the above so forgive me if some of this is repeated.

Yes, I would buy a Poser 5 book provided it was written in depth and in laymans terms. I didn't know you wrote the manual so again forgive me for my opinion but it isn't enough. Example, I tried to learn the cloth room through the manual and while it explained each dial and part of the cloth room, it didn't give any example for actually getting a cloth to do something. My cloth kept falling to the floor and the manual did not explain it well enough. What I've been able to get done in the cloth room is most definitely not due to the manual but to the community. Same with the face room and hair room. Things were described but there was no examples to follow. That's the only way to learn.

I recommend:
Detailed steps
More photos
A few "how to get this effect" tut' for the cloth room, face room and material room.
A more detailed index

I'm sure I have more ideas but I'm only on my second cup of coffee. :)

I'd be interested in a well written book that explains how to use Poser 5. Such a book would have to be reasonably priced ($40 or less) and be well organized. In addition, I would expect it to fill in the numerous gaps in the Poser 5 manual. The book would need to come with numerous examples (available on-line or on a CD-ROM) that the reader could play with in order to understand how various effects were produced. But to be brutally honest, Anthony, I'm not confident that you could produce a book that would make me happy. I am very displeased with the Poser 5 manual and a book by the same author would have one strike against it from the start. The Poser 5 manual documents the program but doesn't even scratch the surface as far as describing how to use it.

Well, JKM, Does the P5 manual explain everything in the amount of detail really required? Probably not. Is it light years ahead of any previous Poser documentation? Definitely. I wrote the manual under very tight constraints with regards to time, page count, etc. Thus, I opted to at least mention everything in poser 5 and describe its basic functionality. A true book describing everything and how to do it could run easily 1,000 pages. Or more. A

Well, I can tell you, a 1000 page book would be the thing I'd go for as long as it is covering not only the cook-book-style part but also the technical background in depth. A good background knowledge is essential for me to work out "tricks" or circumventions by myself. Please, do not restrain yourself to a simple "paint by the numbers"-scheme, get out your intimate knowledge of the inner workings of P5. As a price tag I'd prefer the $40 (as mentioned above), but I wouldn't cave in when it went through the $60 or $70 mark. Willy(Another potential buyer. Let's see the TOC, please)

Oh ... Anthony!! How could you? I just ordered the "Poser 5 Handbook" and would have much rather baught your book ... Heck, I still will, I know how well you write. Limited as the manual was it was easier to read than most of the other manuals in my library. Go for it! Boni :)

Anthony I would be interested in a book that concerns what P5 can do (not should/supposed to do) or what P5 can do for the majority of owners, not just a few owners. Maybe a book is premature until P5 is fully functional. Believe me I'm not bad mouthing CL (I'm sure they are still working on the problems), I just think it is a little too soon to put out a book, there may be more changes to solve the current problems. I sure you would do a great job on the book, if everything was working correctly.

Well, at first blush, here's what I'm coming up with for a tentative table of contents: Installation - installing Poser 5 seamlessly About 3D - expanded section on learning basic 3d concepts Navigating the Poser Interface - rooms, dials, etc. Let's Get Organized - organizing and installing content, libraries, etc. Scene Building - adding figures and props - posing Cloth - how to create objects for cloth - making props into cloth - troubleshooting Faces - all about faces, including morphs, textures, photos, etc. Hair - all abou the Hair room, including numerous examples Materials - navigating the material room - how to build shaders - what do the shading nodes do? (explain each node in detail) - examples of complete materials and why each node was inserted, to show how a shader comes together - texturing (about texturing, texture walkthrough in a paint app, etc. Lighting - spot and infinite lights - volumetric lights - creating realistic effects - more info (photo studio type info) Modifying Figures - all about morph targets - EMC walkthrough - creating morphs - etc. Building Figures - building meshes in third party apps - the Setup Room in detail Rendering - about cameras - render settings - test renders Animation - all about movies Interacting with 3rd party apps - morph making - texture making - export - plug-ins - Bryce - etc. Tips & Tricks - lots of cool stuff I have floating around in my skull Troubleshooting Glossary Index Again, this is very rough - but should give an idea how I'd attack this. Of course, I'd be discussing other apps throughout as approporate, making the discussions as generic as possible (e.g. "use a typical 2D app" instead of Photoshop-specific details, etc.) just my initial thoughts... Anthony H.

As I stated on the Poser Yahoo list... go fo it...yew can dew it... $49.99 is about the correct price point for a tome with CD. If you need help with editing or verbage, let me know...will be very happy to assist you in any way I can. davidso1@charter.net This is something I've felt strongly about since P4....Poser has expanded well beyond its original intent...there are many add ons for it....be it software, models, what have you...they all need to be addressed and compiled into one BIBLE of Poser.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." - Lao Tzu Describing the fish to the man doesn't do either the fish or the man much good. -------- I guess my frustration with the Poser 5 manual comes from the fact that it does mention a lot of things but provided virutally no context for many of them. The Material Room is a prime example of this. The way the texturing was handled in Poser changed radically from Poser 4 to Poser 5. While you did indeed touch on many of the nodes in the Material Room (possibly even all of them), many of the descriptions of the node properties were little more than a restatement of the property name. Only nine pages or so were spent on how to use the Material Room. What was lacking was an explanation of why the way texturing way changes and how it changed. There was nothing to help the user to understand the new mindset of this portion of the application. As a result, many users were baffled by the Material Room. Many of them have been able to puzzle it out since then but not all of them. I see that as a shortcoming of the Poser 5 manual. As for if the Poser 5 manual is better than previous Poser manuals or not is another question. On the one hand, I didn't have any problems using previous versions of Poser and had no problems with the manuals. On the other hand, Poser 5 is a much, much bigger program with many new and complex features. A manual that really did describe it in the required detail would be a huge undertaking. Apparently Curious Labs didn't feel that having a manual that taught users how to use the program was a priority. I certainly understand that you were under various constraints and that those did not help to produce high quality documentation. I would hope that if you do choose to produce a Poser 5 book on your own that such limitations would not come into play. Take the time and pages to really describe what the program can do and how to make it do it. If that means that the book is 1000 or more pages and costs $75 or more, fine. Just be sure that the book is worth the cost. Any book that would help me to take full advantage of the potential power of Poser 5 is something that I would consider to be a worthwhile purchase. Then again, if DAZ Studio is any good when it is released, all of this talk about Poser might be moot.

The table of contents you have looks good. It would be nice if PoserPython was included as a chapter. I'd recommend having an in-depth index in the back of the book so it is easy to find things.

You might make more money off a book on Daz Studio, if they market the software to both Mac and Windows. I have a bad feeling about the future of Poser 5, whether Curious will drop it for their web-authoring software in the same way that Metacreations dropped Poser 4.

Don't let you hinder by all the talk about DAZ Studio which is not there at least yet. I think any in-depth description of architecture and technology covers more then just one application. As an example: a deeper understanding of shaders, how they work, how they interfere with lighting, etc. would be of use not only to the users of Poser5 but of any similar application. Down by the the riverside, it's all about bits and bytes, vertices, normals and so on. OK, where can I put my order? Willy

I would buy it. Have you though about an electronic version (pdf)? Peggy

We have thought about an electronic version. It would be at least 1,000 pages long (easily more) and would in all likelihood be in the $50 price range. Getting the backing is the hard part. Writing a book reduces my ability to do other things, and I have to keep house and home running smoothly. I have an extremely talented coauthor in mind who is in the same boat as me. She and I figued we need $15,000 to keep us going long enough to get the book completed. At $50 a pop, that translates into 300 sales. Shouldn't be hard to do, especially if we do not limit the Poser discussion to Poser 5. We have three choices for getting the funding we need: - Publisher's advance: Sadly, given the state of the economy, publishers are reticent to part with money even when a clear need exists. And there's a long lead time to print, meaning the book may well be obsolete before it sees daylight. - Investment: If anyone has $15K and is willing to act as a publisher with ownership rights (my coauthor and I would get royalties after making sell-through with the publisher keeping the rest), I'm willing to talk to them. - Advance Orders: If enough people place pre-orders, those funds would cover the cost of the book. The upside is fast time to market (about 4 months) and having purchasers' money going directly to the people who wrote the book instead of being soaked up by third parties. The downside is that whoever places an advance order would be out $50 with nothing but a promise of delivery. If the community has enough faith in me to be willing to help me help them, I would be profoundly grateful for the help. That said, I am not and will not ask you for your money in advance since we all know the pitfalls of pre-orders. I will only go this route if enough people express a willingness to pull this crazy stunt. What can I guarantee? The best damned Poser book ever! Between my direct experience with Poser and my coauthor's long track record of writing great third-party software books, we're the team to do this thing. Mentioning DAZ Studio? That's a possibility. I can't say yay or nay because Ihaven't seen it and don't know how it and Poser would integrate and complement each other, if at all. But I'm not opposed to the concept.

Anthony... Why don't you set up another thread for brainstorming for the money tree... Or, perhaps an additonal forum set up on Smartgroups or somesuch.... Another suggestion...why not do the book through Renderosity/Bondware? Have you approached them? There is a pretty large Poser commninity here...they could act as publisher and distributor.selling the book in the MP...maybe even fron the money....just an idea

heyas; i dunno as i'd put in 'installing' and '3d basics' in there. get to the IMPORTANT stuff, man! :) you might want to think about doing two volumes, if you really want to do that. the beginner (installing, interface, 3d concepts) and the advanced (hair, cloth, materials, fx, etc etc). although a lot of people need help with basic stuff, some of the advanced users don't need that. it might be better for them to give them their own advanced book, so it would have room for all the fancy goodies they want. in fact, if you do two books, you can fit in most of the 1000 pages you want. :)

If I may add suggestions.

*"Let's Get Organized

• organizing and installing content, libraries, etc."*

It would be a good idea to explain where the different file types go and why. (ie: rsr,png,obj,pz2, etc.)

*"Cloth

• how to create objects for cloth
• making props into cloth
• troubleshooting*

A start to finish project with images.

*"Hair

• all abou the Hair room, including numerous examples"*

Also a mini tut complete with images for a start to finish project.

"- the Setup Room in detail"

THANK YOU! :)

Although I do recommend a lower price level. Or, offer the option of a book without the CD. $50 - $70 is a bit much in my opinon.

Kendra, all you put in and more would be my idea of a complete book. Bloodsong, given the large number of newbies and some of P5's installation quirks, ti does make sense to include that information as well. Writing that is the easy part! $50 for a 1,000-page plus book with all the materials needed to complete the tutorials is actually pretty in line with the pricing I saw for comparable books. But that has not been set in stone yet... Anthony

One suggestion I would make is one I am sure you'll do anyway. Have a beginner - someone not too familiar with Poser 5 - or several test run the manual and make sure they can follow the instructions in your draft. Too many manuals are read over by experts who miss the gaps. Somehow I don't think you'll have problems finding volunteers.

Geep does tutorials here in the forum that really are wonderful, they cover advanced topics, and done for me at least in a simple to understand manner. I'd love a Poser Bible book. I find the Bible series of books great references with lots of tutorials, clearly indexed, and they regularly come in at the 600+ page count. The Inside series of books are nice too. I use Inside Lightwave for ref all the time. I would definately buy a poser book that clearly showed how to create clothing for poser characters. I'd also buy a book that was higher in price, if it contained valuable resource tuts and text, information is great but a cheap book that skims on tuts I wont buy. Let me know where to pre-order :) I'll be standing in line haha!

Under Troubleshooting What's wrong How to fix it If all else fails, blame Microsoft :-)

Nosfiratu, A book sounds like a great idea - would be nice to see. But ..would you mind posting over in the product showcase once you start talking about money and such? Thanks! Lyrra "I just get these headaches" Madril

I've been mulling a theory that CL is actually a subsidiary of Nintendo and is peddling a puzzle game, not a 3D program at all. Getting a simple .jpg onto a simple square primitive, to take a classic example, is way more convoluted in P5 than it has to be (P4, while not exactly intuitive, is at least straightforward once you find the button). I wonder if a lot of the problems people are having stem from the puzzle factor, rather than from actual bugs? Yeah, I'd go for a book that spelled out the how-to as opposed to just expanding on the blurbs on the outside of the box. Whoever set the constraints against your doing that the first time needs to have it explained to them, in Morse code with a 2x4, what a frickin' manual is. Your outline sounds about right, provided you follow the advice about having a LARGE ENOUGH panel of newbies test it for usability. Compared to what I'm seeing on the shelves at Borders and such, $50 for a thousand pages is about standard, or a tad low even, for the usual potboiler crap. I'd pay more for something that actually got me where I want to go with my investment in P5, at whatever page count. If you move this discussion elsewhere, make sure you leave a pointer here so we can find it. The notion of a book being written with the participation of its customer base makes excellent sense and should lead to an example the 'big guys' ought to follow. May your shadows never grow less!

Well said, Joe N. I agree yet disagree with the puzzle bit. 3D is pretty complex, and Poser 5 totally changes the rules established by P1-P4. Confusion is inevitable. Mind you, I'm not knocking P5- quite the contrary- just acknowledging that it's a whole new ballgame. I'm looking at putting out an e-book in PDF format, using 8.5x11 sheets, and illustrated within an inch of its life. While I know a great deal about Poser, there are people who know a lot more about certain topics than I do and I'd definitely ask for their participation in providing material that I can use and edit, testing, etc. I have some names in mind and will contact folks if and when this project moves forward. And yes, I would indeed plan to have newbies work through the information to see if it does indeed help them. Of course, I can't ignore more experienced users. I think I have a workaround. So at this point, I'm trying to drum up the financial support to make this project feasible. If and when that occurs, who knows, it just may happen. I do need to thank everyone for their wonderful support thus far. I'll keep everyone posted as things progress. ;-) Anthony H.

And this has what to do with writing a Poser book, precisely?