Attached Link: 1. Merchants beng banned headsup!! by BobbaDaHut on 11/1/02 08:42

Or is it Part III? "**You do not have access to the Merchant Forum.** The merchant forum is a service to Renderosity merchants. Access may be limited based upon competitive status or a demonstrated lack of interest in advancing the stated purpose of this forum. Please email admin@renderosity.com if you believe this designation is incorrect." And... "**Subject: Merchant forum access...** Instant Message from XxxxxX: Hi Sherman, I wanted to let you know why your access to the merchant forum was removed. Its due to the fact that you are a key player (Admin) at 2 competing brokering sites. Nothing personal or in regards to ANY posts you have made. We simply have to apply this rule equaly across the board. Xxxxx" I'm requesting that my store be removed from this site immediately, along with other copyrighted contributions. If as a merchant, I don't have access to the full range of merchanting tools agreeded to when I became a merchant at this site, then this site will not profit [however small the profit] from selling my items or from using my work. That sounds fair enough to me. Sherman Barnes [Ironbear] DSi Store Admin and Animotions.com Admin

Who'd you irritate? I thought that whole mess was over and done with. So much for them seeing the error (stupidity) of their ways.
I hope they get your store down soon. You'd think they'd realize they can't use you to make money while denying your rights as a merchant.
Didn't they say that you had to be an owner of a brokering site to have your rights here taken away? If you aren't getting a percentage of brokers at either site, you've been screwed here.

shakes head Sorry IB. Tom

Who knows? Maybe it just took them several months to go "Yanno? Do you think that signing the occassional forum post DSi Store Admin might mean that he works there?" ;] Actualy Kendra, I expected that they'd expand that from owners to admins of competeing sites when the origional "non-discussion" was delivered from on high. And then to moderators of competing sites. Step II, Step III still to come. That post was also emailed and IM'd to CLint, and CC'd to Tamy. We'll see how fast my store is removed before I go farther.

So first it was the competing site principles, meaning owners. They told you all not to worry, it only affected us, when the night train left for siberia. Now the night train is back, and is loading up the admins of competing sites as well. Who is next?

Kendra, interestingly enough, not all sites are "competing" in the sense of getting a percentage of what the site sells to keep as a profit. Russell and I run PoserPros as a not for profit site and always have. We keep no money for ourselves. Not one penny. What little does not go to the merchants and to pay the site bandwidth costs goes into a pool we then split up to pay the staff with. Russell and I work for nothing and pay ourselves nothing.

I just wonder what's next? Anyone not exclusive? Seems like they're changing the rules as they go. -not happy about this.

Good thing I removed my store before the train left the station huh?! And just for the record, I'm making 4 times as much (consistantly I might add) selling exclusively at Poser Pros as I ever did here, so thanks Renderosity :P

IB - Your products will be removed as requested. Clint

-

Nice to see you climbing your head back up the admins rears here Scott. But then again, that's always been your primary talent. Maybe you can ingratiate enough to get your old job back - I understand that Poser forums been short handed. ;] And heya - you've been tailor made for this place for a long time.

Actually. My snicker was aimed at both parties. But given our past history. I understand your POV.

In that case, snicker away. Both perspectives have their absurd sides. ;]

one thing I've been wondering about.. what is the legal stance on one side of a party changing a legal agreement, (hosting and selling a product for an individual), without first consulting the other individual concerned? I've been wondering that since I realised the TOS I agreed to here has been changed several times, often without notification to the members that are all affected by such changes. sorry.. this don't actually sound that legal to me.. tho if it is, I'm gonna be changing a lot of agreements, eg with my gas company, my ISP, the Tax Office etc... Kai

Well.....You know I think you DO need a good butt kicking once in a while to keep you in check with the rest of the world. ;-)

But If they were going to boot competing people.
The logical and professional thing to do would have been to boot the Admins. and Mods. of competing sites from the get go.

Our former Renderosity Teammates (like them as I do). Are so completely lost in the ways of running a business. That sometimes even I have to

"Well.....You know I think you DO need a good butt kicking once in a while to keep you in check with the rest of the world. ;-)" You're welcome to swing by Dallas and take a swing at me any time your heart desires. ;] Heh. I said that I agree that both persepctives have their absurdities. I didn't say that I truly care what you think. I'll leave it as an excercise for the student to determine wether or not I belive you can.

.

Congratulation Ironbear, looks like the finally noticed you. :) I wonder how many of the other site's store staff and admin who don't "occassionaly sign their mails" will last out before they're tracked down and booted. Obviously next step will be moderators. It's a teeny bit mindless and pathetic to kick out owners and admin and leave their "spies" in place to "steal all the secrets of the death star" smirk This site never ceases to amaze and amuse, truly it should be re-named Ludicrosity.

"I didn't say that I truly care what you think. I'll leave it as an excercise for the student to determine wether or not I belive you can." Awe.......now you hurt my feelings. :-(

Folks, Kaibach raised a pretty interesting question. Anyone here wanna field it?

Sure... Pulled from the TOS. "**Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service." Clint

I thought they swore it would not affect admins and staff at other sites? Didn't they make a big deal that those people would be exempt when they were directly asked about this very thing? and didn't many of those who agreed with 'rosity's stance do so because of that assurance? So now 'rosity wants to control where you work folks! Geesh they boot you, simple administrator,and yet I can think of a competitng sites partner/affiliate that still has access. Mehndi if your staff earns money from your site then they may all be banned (if they haven't left yet) because 'rosity did say it only affected those who "profit" from competitng sites. ;-D Hey I don't get a profit from 3-D Arena at all (30% of sales covers site costs, we want vendors to keep their own money) so does that mean I shouldn't have been banned. I'm not a competitor either.... Grin

"what is the legal stance on one side of a party changing a legal agreement, (hosting and selling a product for an individual), without first consulting the other individual concerned?" That's actually par for the course around here, where have you been? Modifying a TOS is not the same as changing a contract/agreement. A contract is a binding set of terms and agreements. A TOS for a website in comparison can be considered a "whim".

We arent controlling where anyone works. We remove access to the private merchant forum for merchants that we feel have a vested interest in competing Brokering sites. We discuss sensitive information from time to time in the private forum and do not wish to provide this information to competing sites. Its not hard to understand this from a business standpoint. In this particular situation the merchant helps run a store for a brokered site...that is considered competition. We dont ask them to remove their store, or ban their profile. All we do is remove access to one specific thing. Nothing more nothing less. If the merchant feels that this forum is so important that they feel a need to remove all of their products then that is fine. I would rather they didnt but they are free to do this if they feel the need. All other merchant resources are available to them...just not the forum where we discuss upcoming business decisions that we feel should be kept confidential to this site until released to the community. Changes that have been implemented are communicated to all merchants via the monthly newsletter that comes out the second Tuesday of each month. Clint

You say that over and over Clint - but yet IB never hid he was a store admin before, in fact it was directly asked if it would affect admins and the answer was "no" - when this was first started. I was a merchant here remember - I never saw a single thing that was "top-secret" or that would have ever influenced anything at 3DA - except what "not" to do. Things not to do; Do not - post a remark about changes as if vendors have a say in it and then when all vendors are against it inform them they really have no choice anyhow, Do not alienate any vendors, they are the lifeblood of a site like this - vendors and customers both - they support the site, Do not show preferential treatment to any vendor/member it does not encourage the best performance from anyone. You can party line it and play it down all you want, but the reality is that it is an exclusion against someone from whom 'rosity was/is making money. It is a discriminatory action and no matter how you try to colour that it doesn't change that one bit. Nowhere when becoming a merchant did it say that vendors affiliated with other sites would not have access to that forum - and that's not a TOS btw - that's a contractual agreement - there is a difference. Never have I ever seen "upcoming business decisions" in that forum that didn't mean change for the vendors - a place for them to have a say in how they felt about those changes - you are taking away the voice of the very vendors who are putting money in your pocket.

I wasnt aware of the situation with IB until recently. I gave it a lot of thought before taking action and I am comfortable with the action I took. We have 700+ merchants and have removed access for less than 15 of them. It is a sound business decision that I am also very comfortable with. Clint

I'm quite sure that you are comfortable with it Clint, that makes it all the more disturbing. Mind you I wouldn't have an issue if this had been thought out and considered prior. Example - in my case I was a "competitve site owner" before I was a merchant so no one sprang any surprises. A sound business practice would consider potentially harmful practices before they happen, but here at 'rosity it seems that everyone is taken by surprise and then they quickly re-write the TOS or change agreements to cover something they should have seen coming. Occasional re-writes wouldn't create the same uproar as consistently doing so does.

"We discuss sensitive information from time to time in the private forum and do not wish to provide this information to competing sites." Ayup. LOTS of it. "Ummm... Clint? Why is my check late?" "Umm... Clint? Can you change my item description?" "Umm... Clint? Where's my banner?" "Umm... Clint? How do I find the Advertising controls?" Heh heh. Oh yeah... and the perennial "This is what member X is pissed off about this week rant" that we all know and love. "We dont ask them to remove their store, or ban their profile. All we do is remove access to one specific thing. Nothing more nothing less." You remove access to an agreed upon service provided in exchange for lifting 50% of the vendors sales from their wallet. "If the merchant feels that this forum is so important that they feel a need to remove all of their products then that is fine. I would rather they didnt but they are free to do this if they feel the need. All other merchant resources are available to them...just not the forum where we discuss upcoming business decisions that we feel should be kept confidential to this site until released to the community." Can't speak for anyone else, but if you're going to remove a service that my being a vendor here entitles me to via your agreemnets, then you're not entitled to sales of my items. Pure and simple. "I wasnt aware of the situation with IB until recently." Actually, you were. Not my job to pay atention for you. But... keep saying that if it makes you feel better. "I gave it a lot of thought before taking action and I am comfortable with the action I took." An interesting statement. But, of course, you'd have to be comfortable with it. Or at least maintain you are. "It is a sound business decision that I am also very comfortable with." ROFL - I'm not sure that anyone managing this site would know a sound business decision if one sat on them, but we'll leave that go. ;] Also pretty simple: I wouldn't make even a verbal agreement with you, and then retract it in this fashion Clint. Not and pick your pocket at the same time and expect you to smile about it. I don't do business that way. But if Tim and Tammy's ideas on doing business with both vendors and long term mebrs are something that you're "very comfortable with", you're welcome to them, and I hope you'll be very happy together. I'll also tell you that if you ever decide to broker with me, you won't get locked out of vendors access just because you're a Renderosity Store admin. I'll consider your position here to be punishment enough. ;]

Don't pester Clint--he's busy making up a new secret handshake and recalibrating his decoder ring.

***I'll consider your position here to be punishment enough. ;] *** ROTLMAO....

ROFL @ Mosca!

I guess what saddens me is that the merchants who make money for this site are not a little more united with each other. When this kind of thing happens to a merchant you should all be out on strike. Get a Union together guys!

I gotta agree with IB IMO no one at this site would know a good business decision if it bit them in the ass. But this is par for the course around here. All of you admins and mods at other sites watch out,YOU'RE NEXT! And the beat goes on........

actually Clint once you enter into a Business Contract, (which this is), the TOS is no longer a binding factor. (Just checked with my cuz who is a Barrister). The TOS will cover the non-financial side of things.. but not the Business side. Once, and I quote him, a financial contract has been entered into, both sides must agree on changes. Sorry.... Kai

Kai - they don't care about that here - I've made that very point to them over and over again until my fingers are blue.

Hey Clint ever hear of "Breach of Contract"?

they should tho.. they run a business. acting in the way they are will eventually get them sued. why wait for that when seeking out legal advice and acting accordingly with the law on such matters will avoid that? or are they just trying to make a buck as fast as they can before that happens? Kai

Actually Kai , it seems they think they are above the law here. Like owning or working for Rosity gives them some special pass on obeying business law. They change Contest rules at a whim, breach merchant contracts,etc. So far they havent been sued(that I know of) but it will happen sooner or later. They will piss off the wrong member, one that has deep pockets, and find themselves in court.

Shrug... 1) R'osity wants to do it, in all practicality they can. You agreed that no contract here with them is permanent when you enter into an agreement with them. Whether that in and of itself is legal or not is up to the first court that hears it. R'osity is betting (IMO wisely) that no one will have the time or money to take it to a Tennessee courthouse. Although, the first person to call the att'y general's office and can provide evidence, can charge 'em with lots of bigger problems, such as the location of the thousands of charity dollars supposedly amassed towards helping the Sept. 11th victims. There has been no accounting of where all that money went. There is also the AOY contest, which is legally questionable. This merchant forum stuff is small potatoes by comparion. If you really want to pound on Renderosity, look up the att'y general's office and charge 'em with wire fraud. All it takes is one phone call (and if I had ever donated to the 9/11 charity here, you can bet your backside that I would've already made that phone call a very long time ago.) 2) No one is forcing anything; alternatives exist. I suggest that merchants who are bothered by the policies here use those alternatives. Let market forces dictate R'osity's policy... it would work a whole lot faster to make things better than to simply yell at 'em in a forum nobody reads will do. 3)Kai - I think your latter theory is the most likely one. See my first contention as to why. All it would take though is someone local to get mad... /P

Why is it ScottA can continually post a direct image of a trademarked item, flaunt the M&M/MArs Corporations' copyrights, and no one in administration here says so much as "boo" about it? /P

Because I am the Walrus baby. Coo-Coo kachoo

I would answer that Peng but would be banned for TOS violation.8-) I had no idea they even had a fund for victims of 9/11. That money better have went to the victims familys.

Hey Scott, what's the difference between a brown nose and a shit head? Depth perception!

Spiritbro ROFL!!!

"I guess what saddens me is that the merchants who make money for this site are not a little more united with each other. When this kind of thing happens to a merchant you should all be out on strike. Get a Union together guys!"

Not everyone agrees or disagrees on the same things. This included.

I personally don't like the decision but I'll support their choice to make it regardless of how unprofessional and stupid I think it is.

What I really hate to see is things being made up as they go (and this I won't support if it continues). Last October when this happened it was put up for discussion one morning and implemented by the afternoon. No warning and no opinions were even considered. A truely professional site would have stated the changes that they wished to make (not pretend it was up for discussion as if our opinions mattered), set a time in which it would be implemented and outlined all whom it would affect. This would have given those affected the time to decide if they wanted to stay or go.

It should have all been said and done back then, even if it was done incorrectly. Like Silvermage says, I too was under the impression that it was only site owners and that mods and admins were unaffected. With this recent change, I have to wonder if they will soon dictate where merchants can work or sell.
And if you think about it, if the site owners are making nothing beyond what they upload to sell (as opposed to keeping and profiting from the percentage of their brokers) the mods and admins are making nothing.

The merchant forum holds no trade secrets. It is a valuable source of information regarding your product, your advertising, sales, etc. I don't believe that the other resources are enough. If this site has accepted money from a merchant, that merchant has PAID for the right to have a voice and be informed.

"We remove access to the private merchant forum for merchants that we feel have a vested interest in competing Brokering sites." Sorry, Clint, but this means ANYONE who sells in a competing brokerage, not just people who work there. If the store doesn't do well, they don't do well. I think Renderosity needs to decide. Are you going to require your merchants be exclusive or not? And are you going to require not only that items be exclusive, but the merchants themselves? Because that sure seems to be the direction you are taking. You want to do that, it's your business, but don't even think that that will keep those "sensitive" bits of info from getting out. One doesn't even have to make a concerted effort in this community to get information. And people are right. The contract you enter into with the vendors is a totally different thing than the TOS. It is a legal and binding contract. hmmm. If you can change your side without notice or agreement, then maybe the merchants can up their percentages without your agreement? This site is just WAY too big to be acting like someone's little hobby website to be played with and changed on whim. Penguinisto is right on when he says that you are counting on the fact that nobody here has the time, wherewithal or money to sue you (that's been counted on in the past). But there are things going on that are covered by law and wouldn't require a civil lawsuit to cause you problems. Aside from that, there is the rule of kharma.

"if the site owners are making nothing beyond what they upload to sell" Kendra I sell to support 3DA at this point - because we are expanding and I want to insure that we continue to do so and that money is there when/if needed I roll all my profits into the site - so I don't earn off my sales anywhere except at DAZ :-D I also don't mind that either, insuring that vendors earn more of their own sales matters more to me - I do with my sales exactly what I want to. My art and hosting services - now that I put in my pocke

You know, if someone, or a group of folks, put all this stuff together and presented it to a lawyer that delt with this sort of thing, most lawyers worth thier jobs are happy to give you a free consultation, and then to collect ~nothing~ else until a settlement is reached. Then, they simply collect a previously agreed upon percentage of said settlement... So if the Rosity folks are thinking no one can afford to take them to court over this, then they must not have done their homework, eh?

Jade - you would need a lawyer licensed to practice law in Tennessee. After that, a bit of research and a presentation is all that it would require. Of course, this is assuming that the R'osity staff hadn't begun a campaign to delete as much evidence as they can. This is why I hadn;t bothered... I myself don;t have all this backed up (I first came to R'osity in Dec 2001, after the announcements of the charity.) OTOH, Diane is right in more ways than one - becuase there will come a time when the PTB does get a wee bit too arrogant about it, and will actually get the attention of a local prosecutor. The rest will simply come tumbling down. /P

Renderosity reserves the right to change, alter or modify the Terms of Service as needed. All postings, past and present are subject to the most current terms of service." Uh, Clint, as others have pointed out, that's not exactly square with standard contract law. Try again, okay?

' ... When this kind of thing happens to a merchant you should all be out on strike. Get a Union together guys! ...

Well I don't know if we need to go that far but a show of support is definitely in order. When I consider all that IB has contributed to this site and the membership it saddens me that he would be treated in this way.

I don't envy Clint for the job he has to do here and I don't know all of the reasons behind a decision such as this - but some consideration should have been given to IB for all he has freely contributed to Renderosity for as long as I have been a member here.