...and the beat goes on... why does this not surprise me?

damn Bear! I knew we should have started a pool on this one ;)

ok, not to rain on anyone's party here, but I just read the marketplace agreements. hmm, the only clause that could concern the merchants forum is the etools. yet from the sentence structure, it's obviously only the marketplace/ order processing and the ebot for contacting and being contacted by the people that have bought the merchant's products. nowhere does it mention the merchants forum, or any indication that the merchants forum exists. but, with there having been an established precident(sp?) of ALL merchants having access to the forum, even round one could cost bondware everything in a court case. thhis round, of banning non pronciples, would definately have bondware filing for bankruptcy, after paying the huge court costs and settlements for breach of contract. sorry Clint, but this is a very, very bad business move, and if I was a merchant and was locked out, well, I would not accept anything less than bondware's bankruptcy after court settlement ordered. and I'm sure there are enough merchants that will feel as strongly to file such a law suit for these actions. just my opinion.

I agree with Jaqui on this one. and to add.. If it's principals of competeing brokers what will it be next? people who aren't exclusive? people who have their own companies but don't sell other people's stuff? what next? Sorry this is not a good buisness move. It's a bad one.

Clint said: "We discuss sensitive information from time to time in the private forum and do not wish to provide this information to competing sites." Clint further said: "We have 700+ merchants and have removed access for less than 15 of them." chuckles Clint, hate to be the one to deliver this sort of news to you, but let me share a little secret with you... NOTHING stays a SECRET in this Community for very long... Furthermore, let's think about this... your "Sensitive" information being shared with over 700 people doesn't stay very "sensitive" for long... and this is sure to make you paranoid, but you have more "leaks" in this site than just from within your merchant forum... :o) I could get into some specifics with you if you'd like, of course, I truly believe you have enough problems to deal with now with just this subject. Fact of the matter is this, you'd do better to lock out all of your Merchants,or just not even bother discussing "sensitive" issues in there. Of course, then I would miss hearing all of the usual: "I haven't completely read this thread, but..." posts from Blackhearted. And, while you are at it, you should also do the same with your Moderator's forum, now THERE is where the true wealth of entertainment for some of us come from and some of your Moderators dare call us whinners... heh. :o) But such is the hazzards of using the Internet as a portal to "discuss" such "sensitive" matters. You'd be better off using an Enigma' machine... or the telephone. :o) Jack

"- but some consideration should have been given to IB for all he has freely contributed to Renderosity for as long as I have been a member here. " Thanks muchly Richabri, it is appreciated, but... no. No special consideration. I don't think I should have been treated differently from any other merchant or member here, or any special consideration given. Just... "consistent with the treatment that any other member or merchant should expect". That's it. Consistent rules, consistent fairness. Heh. All of you have contributed just as much as anyone else here... different areas and different ways maybe. Why should I or Mehndi, or Jack, or anyone else rate consideration that you don't get also? The "same" consideration. now that I'll go for. ;]

Is it wrong that I find this whole thing incredibly amusing? I removed my store (not that I was selling much of anything anyway) when the PTB decided that folks who run other stores couldn't have access to the merchants forum. I knew that this was coming down the pipe, it was just a matter of time. For the record... like Xena, I've sold way more since I started selling stuff at PoserPros than I ever did at Renderosity... by a long shot... I'm sorry that I missed out on all the top secret discussions that happen in the merchant's forum when I had access to it...

Attached Link: Merchant Resource Center

It is listed Jaqui... but not, I believe in the upload areas. There's a section in the "Merchant's Resource Center" page here that states" "**Merchants Forum / Chat** **All MarketPlace Merchants have access to a private forum** that you will now see on your side navigation bar under Admin Forums. It is not open to the general Renderosity public. The Merchants Forum provides a place where you can communicate with other store contributors and the Renderosity team. Feel free to ask questions and discuss issues here. Updates pertinent to store contributors will also be posted as necessary. Please visit this forum often." There's a section directly under that that was added ***after*** Timmy's Big Picture announcement - I have a saved HTML from prior to Oct 2002 that doesn't have this section - that states: "If a Renderosity MarketPlace Merchant has a vested interest in a competing broker site or is not participating in a professional manner Renderosity Administration reserves the right to remove their access to the Private Merchant forum." ***Vested interest*** and ***professional manner***, like the bulk of Rosity's unwritten and arbitrary policies, isn't defined anywheres on those pages. *grin* Like everything else, they mean whatever a Rendo admin or mod wants them to mean at the time, since as has been observed in this forum alone, "professional manner" obviously doesn't apply to very many Renderosity spokespeople. ;] And, since I didn't get the "You no longer have access to Merchant's Forum - WARNING! ENTERING A RESTRICTED AREA!!!" off of my bookmark, that's obviously not a part of the secretive areas. Or at least that's what ***I*** just chose it to mean when I posted the link here. Any two can play, boys. And I've been a player a lot longer than a lot of people. Letter of the law goes both ways. ;]

" Is it wrong that I find this whole thing incredibly amusing? " Yes, cin, it is. :-)

Damn, Sorry to hear this IB :( *Im just wondering if all members are eventually going to be required to be exclusive merchants.. :| This just isnt right in my book... ~J

shrug Life happens while you were making other plans, eh? ;] Not sure, Jumpstart... mine and a few others speculation is that it's a start towards and increasing insularity: not neccessarily lockout non exclusives, but make them less desirable by offering more and more curtailed merchant resources compared to vendors with exclusive items. And possibly exclusive vendors. 1) First lockout site owners who also just happen to be merchants here - not ban, but lock them out of vendor resources while still taking their money if they prove to be compliant enough to roll over with out saying "screw you". 2) Extend it to admins of other "competing" sites. 3) Wait for that flap to die out, and extend it to mods of competing sites. 4) When that flap dies out, change policies again in another "We'd like feedback on this change - not that we're going to pay any attention to it, but you can say whatever" policy change to remove merchants forum and tools access from vendors who are not exclusive with Renderosity on their products. 5) Eventually extend that to vendors who sell elsewhere as well, making it prohibitive for them to not be exclusive to Renderosity. -- More than likely, there'll be some effort to make it clear to mods that work both here and at other sites that that's discouraged. And along the way, you'll have eliminated the people who won't play - you didn't need them anyway and they just cause disruption by pointing out that your latest admin brainstorm is a actually a brown spot leaking out your ears. ;] Of course, you never just say straight out that you want to change your business model to exclusive only vendors and to discourage people from selling in other markets because it'll be more profitable for you and incidentally make it harder for the smaller sites - no... straightforward announcements isn't the Renderosity Way. Having worked inside mods forum here for a long time - close to two years - it's never been the policy of Renderosity's owners to just tell the members what they're trying to do and announce it, that's alien to the way of thinking here. Afterall, you guys might not agree, and you might ask difficult questions that'll have to be obfuscated, or ignored, and then it'll be apprent they're being ignore. Best to just implement it behind a smokescreen of bullshit. And mods who ask dificult or pointed questions, or who point out what it looks like after you strip the PR away, in mods forums can be ignored or fobbed off with BS explanations because they have an expectation that they won't talk out of shop. They may even have had to sign an NDA to not talk out of shop - that was rumoured to be coming slightly before I quit here. Of course... someone will come along soon and scoff at all this as wild speculations, probably someone with a semblance of being official... just Ironbear talking out his ass again. ;] Keep in mind though, I've been watching this place for a long time from both sides of the curtain, and I've got a pretty good base of observation to base a feel for how things work here on. As the man said in Silverado: "Hide and watch". grin But you want to lay real money that at least some of my speculations aren't close to the mark, come talk o me. ;]

I hear ya, and I agree.. your prolly not far off the mark there.. if not right on it. ;) ~Jani :)

Soooo...In a nutshell...As far as marketplace's go...Renderosity blows technicolor chunks.

Yeah.. but what's the fun in boiling it down to one succinct sentance? ;]

i notice they throw around the word professional a lot, yet they themselves behave in a less than professional manner....

I hope I'll have a real job by the time they lock ME out for some random reason they feel "comfortable" with.

Oh this is a bad move! One of the coolist people that I have admired for along time gone? a big no no. Now starts the mass exodus and the beging of the end. It was bad enough when I didnt see his article on the front page! This is realy sucking.

From the glossary of investment.com: Vested interest: In law, an interest in something that is certain to occur as opposed to being dependent on an event that might not happen. In general usage, an involvement having the element of personal gain. On that definition, and Renderosity is clearly using the 'general usage' part here, couldn't selling through any other site be considered a vested interest?

"Oh this is a bad move! One of the coolist people that I have admired for along time gone?" If this is true. You are hanging out in the wrong place. You can catch IB's show at either PoserPros or the 3DCommune. He does several shows at those places daily. And seats are dirt cheap.

Huh?. IB has posted maybe three in the last 6 months at the 3DCommune. Perhaps you are thinking of another site. Tom

ROFL That's ok Hawk, leave the poor fellow his illusions. Scotty doesn't get out much. ;] Yeppers, Ectsacy. But make the end 3-D Arena, and add Animotions and Rotica and a few other places to the list. Whereas you can only catch the ScottA Routine on local channels here - Tickets are cheap, but the show's not a high draw either. ;] See, Scotty doesn't wander far from home... not to where there's no Disney policy and no friendly mods to lock down a thread when it turns on him. It'd purely terrify him to post at General Disscusions at PoserPros where there's no one to keep the big kids from giving him indian rope burns on the playground. And no mommy to pad his corners. He'd have to stand on his own limited abilities at debate an his less than stellar command of the village idiom and grasp of rhetoric there. Ah well. No guts, no glory. ;]

Well there you go, it's not like Scotty actually has to pay attention to anything that goes beyond his own nose and actually know what he's talking about. Why break the habit of a lifetime? It's always amusing when someone waxes lyrical without actually checking what it is they're saying. Heh, same old same old. And the mook of the month award goes to.... The village missing it's idiot.

ahem Please let's not get personal huh? And that's not from a 'Disney policy, Scott-friendly mod', I scarcely know him. Kev.

That's possibly a vicious personal attack agaist some village, soemwhere's, Q. ;]

No problems KB. I'm happy to take it to an offsite playground with the fellow if he's up for it. You should know by now that I usually won't start a snap and slash, but I'll generally finish one. And I play rough. ;]

Hey Scott hows your depth perception?

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10154&highlight=#10154

http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=10154&highlight=#10154 What was it here you could not protect us from Scott, that once caused you so much concern that you chose to leave Rosity's staff?

Now come on dont get down on scott. Yeah he said it but hey he has his right and Im not going no where.No need to make a bad sitiuation worse. This is painful enough. Alot of people/artists and admins dont realize. They are loved and appreciated even when there being bad or taking the advocates road.Alot of us do. I realy hate to see good people leave company at any time especialy when they contribute so much like IronBear. And if it was scott my response would've been the same. Even though I dont know them personaly I still cosider them family when I see them on the screen!

I think the thought process on this decision goes something like this: "Vendors who own and operate competing stores will not have access to the private merchant forum and administrators and moderators at competing websites who may be deamed as disenters and wave makers will also be excluded from the private merchants forum".

Thanks Ecstasy. And I'll miss shooting the breeze with you, caleb and the rest in Merchaats. ;]

That's "Merchant's". Don't know how that extra "a" got over there. g Oh no, Illusions? Hrmmm... *hastily hides incriminating photos... * ;]

No illisions is a good thing unless you just wen abruptly off your prozac. Not that you, Iron bear was a wave maker .I dont think you are but I would bet the site did because you called it as you saw it and 100% of the time your perception was right on the nose wether it was management or community .Your insightful comments and wit always brought me to laughter and sometimes gasps And a few "I cant belive he said that" But more then anything else your timing and delivery was always on the spot too. And to me that is something to be admired and an attribute I wish I had myself. "Another ancient has followed the path of oblivion......."

Clint: "We have 700+ merchants and have removed access for less than 15 of them" I think your decision may have affected more than just 15. Once people get pissed off, they tend to stay pissed off, and as someone who was thinking of selling through your website, I no longer would consider you as a place I would want to partner with. I'm sure others would consider the same. So you may have lost more potential partners than you can ever imagine. I've been in the business of selling software for 20 years, and you've made a bad business decision that will affect you down the road.

I suggest that you merchants notify all your customers when you remove your stuff from a store. I can't count the number of times I've wanted to tell someone where I got something, only to get to the Marketplace, and find the item and artist are no longer listed. Of course, no one left a forwarding address either.

I really think that the site owners need to take a close look at these thread. There are not an infinite amount of members to be had guys, you really need to listen to what these people are saying here. If you think Rendersoty is infallible you are dead wrong. Once decisions are made and minds are made up, there's no backpedaling, so really think about what you're doing and the possible ramifications thereof beffore you start instituting policies. A good place to start would be to consider "worst-case scenario" of a considered policy. For every member that speaks their mind there are that times ten that don't, perhaps even more.... and I've yet to see anything discussed in the merchant's forum that is so ground breaking that some merchants merchants should be excluded. sigh

rolls eyes This place really needs an edit option ffor forum posts!

They may have only removed 15, but it'd be interesting to see how many of we merchants left ourselves, and how many members longer purchase anything from the marketplace here anymore. I could name quite a few. And yeap Judith, ground breaking stuff was not discussed when I was there either, unless finding out when someone's cheque was getting sent is top secret James Bond stuff shakes head

ok IB, didn't get to that page never found a link to it when reading the docs. ~g~ but then, the merchants agreement as you signed it to become a merchant, is a legally binding contract, that would require re negotiation to be altered. guess what IB, you can own bondware and rosity for breach of contract, along with the other 14 people they have banned from the merchants forum. a tos can be altered, and merchants agreement is a contract not a tos, and annot be altered without legal repercussions on the altering party. by altering the contract illegally bondware/renderosity has breached the contract and can be held accountable in court. altering anything with the MERCHANTS is a contract alteration, you are talking money matters not free membership matters.

Sorry I haven't replied. I was out. ;-)

Thanks Xena for finishing my thought..... "They may have only removed 15, but it'd be interesting to see how many of we merchants left ourselves, and how many members longer purchase anything from the marketplace here anymore. I could name quite a few." Exactly! You'll see more leave quietly than with a roar.

"They may have only removed 15, but it'd be interesting to see how many of we merchants left ourselves, and how many members longer purchase anything from the marketplace here anymore. I could name quite a few." I removed my store already, but I was still making purchases from the store... but that won't happen anymore. If anything comes up in the store that I want to buy I'll contact the merchant directly to see if there's something of mine I can trade them for, or if some other arrangement can be made. It's a shame too, there are a lot of talented merchants here in the marketplace, and unfortunately, they will suffer due to the actions of the folks that run the show here. I may not be a "power buyer" but I've spent my fair share of cash on products here at Renderosity, and I'm sure there are a more folks who feel the same way I do. I removed my products because I no longer felt comfortable earning money for Renderosity through my sales, but now I no longer feel comfortable helping Renderosity earn money off the hard work of the merchants here.

Ok, I start counting: 1

"what is the legal stance on one side of a party changing a legal agreement, (hosting and selling a product for an individual), without first consulting the other individual concerned? It invalidates the contract, unless they had a clause permitting modification without resigning (no). Also with the merchant exclusion- the merchant regulations would have to contain a non-competition clause, again which would have to be included at the time of agreement to be legal. To the best of my knowledge.

Micheleh, that's also what I have been getting at.

Look at ti like this. In ther eal world, you sign a contract on paper with ink, so does the other party. Same principle here, only digital. Now, later on, the other party types up a new contract and says "this is the new agreement". You break a rule which is in the 'new' agreement, and are penalised, even though you ahve only signed the old one. You go to court. The other party says 'but your honor, I changed the contract to this! I know, the new contrat was never signed... you mean, that's important?" Question- how many books will the judge throw at them? ;) Sounds ludicrous, right? Well, this is no more than the digital equivalent. Same rules.

Bloody typeos.

Again this whole thing (as many others before and as many to come) Has been improperly handled. When are people gonna get there shit together and handle these things in a correct manner? Once ok ,2 times your getting close, 3 times your out. Come on whose running this circus? Does the people supposedly at the top know whats going on and has anyone e-mailed them their concerns?And I aint talking admins and mods. Im talking bondware. What exactly is the chain of command?? You dont just hand shit out and expect people to take it. not unless your incredibly naive.

I think it'd be really interesting to see what the exclusive merchants have to say about all of this. especially the ones that aren't particularly fluent in English and/or who may not frequent the forums very often. Do they know what is going on?

All of my products here were exclusive Momcat. One, Saluda, was one of the highest grossing products ever. Exclusivity, and willingness to sign it over to Rosity from the getgo, being the very FIRST exclusive merchant with the FIRST exclusive product ever here, my long "service" to Rosity, my helpfulness to other merchants, my choice to remain silent in the merchants forum rather than ever be considered a diruption in the past few months instead of voicing my opinion... none of that mattered nor saved me when this decision was hastily made. Pooh, at least you got a message from Clint apologizing. I was cut off and cut out without so much as still even an email, or instant message, literally in the middle of making an active post in response to an answer to a post I had made seconds before about Tim's announcement that this was about to be done to us. It was like someone did not want me to get that post out where the merchants could read it ;)

Part of the problem, Ecstasy, is that it was a decsion made by the top of the chain-of-command that trickled down to the point where the mods, in doing their duties, had to enforce it. Complaining to the very people who made the policy change - even when they ask for suggestions, which they never intend to follow - never accomplishes anything. It probably will take some outside litigation to get things straight. However, unless the affected merchants band together, I cannot see an individual taking this responsibility upon themselves. Also, with the new laws that are coming into focus surrounding the Net, I highly doubt that the legal action would have to be entered into in Tennessee; although, do not quote me on that. It seems whereas this is an International resource that is effectively brought into each locality via the Web, local State laws (in the US) that govern commerce would also apply. Therefore, it could be possible to force the R'osity owners to attend individual court hearings in each locality of the affected merchants.