I'm a bit confused, (as usual), on purchasing a program to do modeling and animation. I'm thinking about Lightwave 3D 7.5 or perhaps Cinema 4d XL8.... Which, or perhaps a different one, has most bang for the buck, ease of use that a beginner can latch on to fairly easily, best features....in modeling, animation capabilities, rendering etc... Also, Poser import is necesary. 3d Max and similar are just too pricey for me to purchase...

Ditto on this request. I'm interested in learning clothing modeling. What's the best modeling program to make clothing? Hopefully one with very specific tutorials available. Something for the complete idiot. I know about PhilC's great CD, but I'm looking for something really tied to the product I'm using, a step by step, hit this button method.

Lightwave offers more bang for the buck, I don't think anyone will disagree with that. However, for the price, Cinema 4D offers a great deal of value for money and shows a new form that offers a growth potential that could rival the higher end packages. For simple user support, expansion, power and plugins out the wazoo, it's hard to beat Lightwave. But, coming up the outside real fast and starting to be taken seriously in industry is Cinema. Both have different scaled learning curves but both are steep. I'd suggest you grab a demo of both programs and try them out, choosing the one that suits best your workflow habits. From a personal perspective I'm inclined to support Cinema, but I've seen some unbelievable stuff done with Lightwave, it's just a little too expensive for me. Lightwave and Cinema both have plugins available for free download from Curious Labs that allow you to import poser scenes. However, once you've gotten into the materials areas of those apps and the lighting capabilities you won't be too fussed over importing poser data just the models. :) Dunno if that helps you any.

Gotta agree pretty much with what Q has said, but you need to try the demos. C4D v8 Studio bundle is over $2600 I think, where LW is $1595. You could go for C4D XL and get it for $1295 but it doesn't have the really good renderer that the studio bundle has. If clothes are all you want to model,then you just might need C4D v8 which is about $595, and purchase the modules as you need them. You have lots of options with the way Cinema is being sold so check both programs out. There is no easy, clear answer. It ultimately is up to you, which interface you prefer, what you want to do in the long run and your budget.

I have to agree with Questor mostly. whichever you finally decide on the learning curve is pretty steep, I've played with the demos & lightwave blew my mind, but cinema was for me easier to use. Don't discount Rhino either that's another good one to look at. Just remember, before shelling out the dosh think Demos ;)

Chrisdmd, which "really good renderer" doesn't XL have? Both the Studio and XL bundles contain the Advanced Renderer. The only thing you get with Studio, not included with XL, are Dynamics and Unlimited NET Render (instead of 3-license NET Render). I know, I own it. So, C4D XL R8 is comparable to LW 3D 7.5, but LW has more bang for the buck. I also agree with Questor: try the demos and decide for yourself.

Attached Link: http://www.newtek.com/buynow/software/bonus_lightwave.html

The advise regarding demos is very good. I use Lightwave and find it to be absolutely awesome, and have never regretted shelling out for it. I was new to 3d when I got it early last summer, just after getting Poser. I found the program very intimidating at first, so many options for everything. I remember thinking "Holy S**t, what have I gotten myself into?" After making the commitment to dive in, I got a couple of good books filled with lessons and began to understand how to use it. The only reason the learning curve is steep is because it is seemingly unlimited in what it can do. Fantastic modeler (it, not me yet) unbelievable cloth dynamics, collision detection, hypervoxels, particle generators, compositing, on and on and on. More stable than solitaire, and with a renderer that is so fast and accurate that you'll swear that someone is doing the calculations by hand when you use Poser. It's not really the learning curve that's steep, it's the infinite list of things that it can do that's hard to get your head around.

No problem, Chrisdmd. Had me confused there for a minute. :) Yeah, the dongle (and all of that registration to go with it) is a pain in the a**. The LightWave interface is a little stiff, but it isn't too difficult to understand and get used to. My problem is now that I'm hooked into C4D, I haven't been able to find the time to really get to know LightWave. What I have done, has been really excellent, though. It can get confusing when switching back and forth between 3 or 4 3D applications. :)

Watch the compatabilty with poser and the 3d app you choose, i think (and i'm not sure) you need Cinema 4d xl V7 and pro pack if you want animations in C4d, stills won't be a problem with V6,7 or i would think 8.....you know i'm gonna say go with C4D so i'll say no more having not used LW for a few years ;o)......Steve

ease of use/interface... when you say the LW interface is a bit stiff...what do you means? I've tried 3DMax and found that to be a challenge, yet seemed highly intuitive to me....how does C4D or LW compare? I will give the demos a try, but first hand feedback from others is needed too :) I have Carrara v1.1 right now, which to me is very unintuitive to use...plus with zero modeling skills, I'm at a loss...for instance, I want to make a cylinder open on both ends..so I made a cylinder...and a second, performed boolean on it and viola...an open cylinder... But all I had to do was to select the ends and delete them..viola..an open ended cylinder...now how in the heck was I to know to do that??? I'm not sure I would have ever tried that myself if someone hadn't told me to do it..... this whole 3d modeling thing seems to be in the gray zone to me :)

Well in C4d you create the cylinder then double click on the icon in the object manager, in there it gives you options such as height, radius, slice, caps and how many polygons the thing has, once your happy with that you hit the c key (or use the menu command) and it becomes a polygon object you can modify.....if you get stuck in the demos Dave just give a yell on this thread seeing we have users of the apps your interested in one of us is sure to pipe up ;o)....Steve

here's GOOd news... I bought 3DWorld Complete 3D Collection mag with the DVD a week or so ago.... all the demos, c4d8, lw7.5, max5, maya ple, xsi, plasma, combustion,after effects 5.5 see you guys in about a month :)

Dave-So, you'd better make that 3 or 4 months! ;) Also, what I mean by stiff, is that although the interface is customizable, I don't see any easy way to modify it. With C4D, I can have my main views on one monitor and managers on another, windows can be instantly tabbed or tabs can be windowed. C4D's interface is almost totally configurable just by point-click-drag. There are no real movable tabs or toolbars in LW. Everything's boxed within the main screen and can't be altered much.

Budget and your skills at learning I think play a factor. The Demo path is a great sugjestion because YOU will be using the 3d application, not the people that recommended it. I recently went through this which to buy delema. Tryed a bunch of demo's looked at prices. I went with Lightwave 7.5, but thats me. Truespace full version was recently on 3d world magazine CD you might want to try that demo and hunt down an old mag if ya can find one or order it online. lower price 3d appz Truespace, Carrara, Cinema 4d Art, Amapi. Just depends on your tastes and the feel you like. One of the things that I haven't seen the other posters in this thread mention is support. This to me was a HUGE thing for me. Updates, reliability, tech support tuts, books, all play into it. Another thing is growth of your abilities and the ability of the application to grow with you. You may only need modeling right now, and still graphics, but what about animation later down the road, or extras. A year from now you want to set fire to all the clothes ya modeled will your 3d application have that capability that you need later on, not promises, but functionality there in the package today. I know thats not a lot of help picking an application, but I tend not to like to get into the this is better than that wars that can grow. I grabbed Lightwave 7.5 at $1250US. Rhino was $900, 3dsmax was $1800, cinema 4d full blown was $1800, so I went with cheaper with lots of funtions. Hope that is helpful.

More like a few years Dave LOL..have fun ;o)..Steve

Lightwave's interface is completely custumizable just like Cinema 4d, 3dsmax, and maya.

There is no such thing as best, over the years i've used pretty well every 3d modeler that ever was available, i finally stayed with LW 7.5 because i like it! What is best for you is what counts, everyone likes something different in an app. You have to like it and be comfortable with the proggy. So do as has been stated previously, try the demos and give each one some time for a fair assessment then choose the one you like :-)

MachineClaw, can you grab any of the command sections, tab views, or toolbars and drag them to a new location or make them a window? I can't. Show me a dual monitor layout.

Lightwave with dual monitor artivle on Flay.com: http://www.flay.com/getarticle.cfm?articleid=23 Here is a web page on cusomizing Lightwave interface and adding menus/quick keys to the interface, you can also assign functions using LScript to perform functions too. http://www.geocities.com/rgkovach/config_tut.htm these are just examples, I keep my lightwave interface generic vanilla I'm still learning. However the click sub menus functions that I use frequently I have assigned to a single menu onscreen so I click once and it performs multi function and pops-up the sub menu (just a time saver). The Lightwave 7.5 manual covers customizing Lightwave Interface and menus. Hope thats helpful.

Yes, I know about what the manual covers, but that's not dual-monitor setup. That's Modeler on one screen and LW on the other. I can do that. Try putting all of your commands on another window on the second monitor separated from the "tabs" displays. No? I didn't think so... ;) C4D beats it hands-down in interface configurability. That might be just about all it beats it in, but that's a nice feature.

There's far more books and tutorials on Lightwave than Cinema 4D. I also got the demos of both. Lightwave works just fine. Cinema 4D loads but none of the menus work. It was like having a screen shot of the interface. Guess which program I'm getting? (I wish the Lightwave demo version would have had at least a small help file, though! I spent days trying to find how to select a polygon, only to find out that it was at the bottom of my menu. I couldn't see it because the screen wasn't maximized and it dipped below my taskbar! I also did print screens of the keyboard short cut menu so I could find all the commands easily.) trueSpace looks interesting, but there's a dearth of tutorials out there for it, and the tutorials that come with the program are animated tutorials that don't work properly on my machine. They didn't work properly on my last machine, and I'm not holding out hope when I get a new computer, either. On the trueSpace site, most of the tutorials you have to pay to view, so that really helped me decide against them. If you don't need the absolute latest version, you can check out ebay for older copies. I'm getting 6.5 for $400 and I'll upgrade it later, if I need to, for another $400. That's 1/2 off from the retail price. I also have Rhino and I like it for some things, but it's strictly a modeller. If you want good rendering and animation, go for another program. As you test-drive the programs, don't forget to breath on occasion! ;-)

Oh, and if you want to do cel-shading, there's a free LW plug-in available. (I don't know off-hand if C4D has one.) Just pop onto the LW site, go to the tutorial area, and there's a tutorial on cel-shading with a link to the free plug-in. I'm going to be testing it out relatively soon.

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=16487