How soon we forget that horrible day. eh? There is one reason, and one reason only, we're surrounding Iraq.

Attached Link: http://www.raptureme.com

I live in Bush Central. It might interest some here on a major influence, rarely noted in the press, on the sense of urgency expressed by Bush and his crow on why a war in the Middle East is essential ... and beneficial. www.raptureme.com www.leftbehind.com PS: 1. I'm a combat vet, and have found that war is not only Hell, it sucks! But like shit, it happens. 2. The history of war shows that the results of a war have little or any relevant connection to the causes. 3. While battle is always a crapshoot, war is 52 Pickup. Let's hope and pray that cooler heads prevail.

Larry-L, circa 1938 the Reichtag building burned down and communists were blamed. The German people followed Hitler into war because of their anger over this. circa 2001 the Twin Towers were burned down and Al-kida(sp) was blamed. The American people are following Bush into war because of their anger over this. I prefer that quote from Santayana in this way: "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience." - George Santayana So have we learned anything ? - TJ

I hope so this is great...thanks TJ...Sharen :-)

The elite Left, who presume the moral highground and love lofty quotes. The Thought Police. Me, I'm only a classic liberal who still thinks for herself.

quixote wrote: "During the last Gulf war, the "highway of death" incident happened after the hostilities had officially stopped. No war crimes trial. The guy who ordered this illigal massacre was promoted." Totally wrong (unsurprisingly). The Iraqi force (that'd be the murderers, the rapists, the looters, the torturers...) fleeing Kuwait were destroyed on the 'highway of death' while hostilities were still very much 'officially' engaged. The force was destroyed because it was a viable fighting force that could be a later threat (much the same reason the Republican Guard was deliberately targetted). Even with the carnage resulting from the bombing, most of the personel in the column escaped on foot. As soon as the possibility of any viable Iraqi counter attack was eliminated (by destroying viable armies in Kuwait and Southern Iraq), the US led coalition stopped its advance and sought talks with the Iraqis. The coalition stuck to its limited UN mandate (too limited in my opinion). The so called 'anti-war' movement were very quiet when Iraq invaded Kuwait and carried out attrocities during the occupation. The shouting only started when it became clear that the US wasn't going to stand for it. The 'anti-war' movement isn't anti-war, it's anti-US. A few of these people might be brave enough to speak out if they didn't enjoy the cosy benefit of living free in a Western democracy, but most of them are hypocritical, posturing, moral cowards. "Nelson Mandela helped a lot today." Yeah, I thought so. He exposed himself as the totally overated lightweight he is with his hysterical blathering. I'm sure Colin Powell was impressed by the bit about the US undermining the UN because the Secretary General is "a black man". That was hilarious.

bikermouse wrote: "circa 1938 the Reichtag building burned down and communists were blamed. The German people followed Hitler into war because of their anger over this." The Reichstag was burnt down in 1933. In elections held the same week, the vote for the Nazis went from 33% to 44% - still a minority (despite extensive Nazi bullying and manipulation). The Reichstag event was only one of many which Hitler used to win over the Germans. "circa 2001 the Twin Towers were burned down and Al-kida(sp) was blamed. The American people are following Bush into war because of their anger over this." al-Qaeda have admitted it. They fucking did it. If the American people have woken up to the fact that there really are people trying to destroy them, it isn't surprising they might follow their elected leadership into war. "So have we learned anything ?" You haven't learnt very much at all, as your banal and offensive comparison shows.

I think we all agree that we all disagree on one point or another. No one likes "blind patriotism". I respect any opinion as long as it is an educated one. Patriotism is not a thing of arrogance but a belief in the common ideals of a nation. I can only say I am a patriot because I know that these actions and the way they are being conducted are viewed by the american majority as being wrong. Any nation on this planet is great, it is up to the leaders to keep it that way. I am saddened that once again the United States of America has been betrayed by it's own goverment. Mark

...and TJ, let's not forget the Japanese who were blamed for bombing Pearl Harbor and the American people followed Roosevelt into war because of their anger over that.

No, humanity has not learned anything, nor will it, because it is evil in nature, history is clear on that. Savages come and savages go and the only chance for Freedom & Liberty to exist in this world, unfortunately, comes at the high cost of standing up to them when they do come. The only alternative is slavery.

infowars.com

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/hwy_death.html http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/hwy_death.html http://www.polyconomics.com/sy.html ....

Wow, quixote, that stuff is writing. It must be true. It can't be hysterical anti American propaganda which the gullible will repeat as fact. "...were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions." LOL, you have to laugh. Let's face it. It wasn't Iraq that invaded Kuwait, it was filthy yankees dressed as Iraqis and Palestinian civilians. The whole thing was a evil conspiracy because it's all about oil. I'm going to hug a tree now!

LoL

OT anyone?

This is a very serious subject! It is about oil, George Bush is the anti-christ and he is working for the aliens who seeded the earth with humans. They crossed their dna with primates millions of years ago and produced the human race!!! They want this planet for themselves, and by enlisting the anti-christ they have the power to do it. They can't live in our atmosphere, but they can live in the atmosphere that big business and the industries are creating. Without oil we can pollute as efficiently, that is why GW needs more!!! The planet was ready the first time they past by in the tail of the comet, I don't know why those guys castrated themselves, aliens are gay(no gender, just gay). You all must be careful, don't say to much, they are listening. They are always listening...SSHHH! I think I hear one, no wait, that's my mom...No mom I am not masterbating in here. Ok, gotta go, I miss my tree...EEELLLMMMERRRRR!

Gee Spit you're a girl? well then have a rose(actually it's Robin Wood's rose in freestuff.)not a very good render but I didn't have much time. It is a poser 4 render though. PJF, Does the fact that it was 1933 make it any less true? "Reichstag fire, the burning of the German parliament building in Berlin on Feb. 27, 1933, soon after Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany; helped turn public opinion against opponents of the Nazi party, especially Communists; immediately followed by a decree suspending all constitutional rights and transferring power of parliament to Nazi cabinet; blame for fire placed on an alleged Dutch Communist, Marinus van der Lubbe, who was convicted; fire widely believed to have been planned by the Nazi party for its own benefit." --------------------------------------------------------- From Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia 1999 The Learning Company, Inc. Yes, I heard Someone say that "al-Qaeda" admitted it, but nothing documentable - I also heard someone say our own government did it also not documentable . . . and if al-Quida did do it why are we going after saddam insane to seek vengance for that act? and after he's gone who are we gonna blame for 911 next ? How many years of war are you willing to tolerate ? Are you actually gonna go to the front lines and fight or are you merely gonna send other peoples childrren off to war ? The point is that there are those who blindly follow without question - The analogy stands: W is acting like a dictator !!! as to who's arguments are banal and offensive . . . we have been putting up with childish crap from the reactionaries for too long. It's time for that to change. - TJ

oops forgot the rose- sorry!

just some food for thought, and to remember to question everything - that is our freedom: "Naturally the common people don't want war, but after all it is the leaders who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country." Hermann Goering, Nazi Germany, 1939

Sharen: no offense taken. The "high horse" comment wasn't aimed at you, it was for the people mentioned by Spit in post #56 above.

Attached Link: http://www.leftbehind.com

It's not about oil, imperialism, personal payback, hegemonism, or patriotism:

"just some food for thought, and to remember to question everything - that is our freedom:" Very true. But I'll add to that that one must also question one's self. Never be satisfied with listening only to pundits who agree with you. "Gee Spit you're a girl? well then have a rose" Trivialize those who disagree with you in order to shut them up. It is such a glaring weakness that it's difficult to take you seriously.

"one must also question one's self" Very true. I'm off this thread. darkwhispers: if I helped derail your thread, please accept my apology. Cheers everybody. Q

If you had access to the information Bush and company has, you probably wouldn't sleep much. Even Colin Powell looked like he'd aged in the last 6 months! I'm not sure why all the judgements here are being made without all the facts (the disclosure of which would cost lives) but you're entitled to your opinion...and the right to express it.

just to throw another two cents in, or maybe another perspective to think about.... It seems to me that there is no such thing as a "just" war, war is just war when it comes down to the mechanism. Justification for the horrors of any war seem all too subjective when compared to what war is from an objective, individual, ground zero, hand to hand combat reality. The reality of what war is should strike terror in our minds and hearts, that is how it should be. It should be the act of last resort. But that "last resort" is a tricky determination. To me the war has already begun, the factions who declared war on America have done so already the only question is where will this war be fought: in America, in the streets of England, Canada or any other country that does not align itself with the so called militant Islamic factions such as Al Quada? The war of the terrorists is justified by them as a sacred duty, the last resort, of necessity to them....their actions are intended to defeat through complete and absolute annihilation of the enemy of their "god". Their army of men, women and children have an absolute and sacred duty to put to death any man, woman or child of their enemy. They are, individually, god's weapon. So again, where will this war be fought? It has already been declared and in that declaration is the unity, in the current world order lies the separation. Each act of terror unites others of like belief, and that belief is that they are individually a weapon of their war....their message of unity is made by each act of terror within ordered society. They count on the lack of unity in so called "ordered" society, they count on the lack of a unified vision in a free society, they count on the restraint of peaceful citizens.....that is their foothold....our freedoms preoccupy us and distract us from their "unified" vision and message..that they will come to our neighborhood and they will destroy us and all those who do not support their own view..... The difficulty is to see that in a free society individual freedoms are limited by necessity, law and order exist to distinguish individual freedoms from chaos....in chaos fear equals power......terror is the mechanism of chaos... Should we, and each of us, want to send the message that the war will be fought at the doorstep of those who have declared war already.......I think so....what is the alternative we will wait until they invade our neighborhood...?...is that not what 9-11 signified was their "ability" to do so...?... The war has been declared, even if we would prefer peace, there are those who would use that preference as an advantage....the question that remains is where will this war be fought, not when.

Darkwhisperer must really be enjoying all these comments about his render. but then that's what the right does best - evade the issue at hand or redefine it to benefit their own self interest. This thread should have been moved to OT a long time ago. It has ceased to have anything to do with Poser - instead every right leaning fanatic on the forum has decided to make it their personal vendetta.