When is a model no longer an original model? Who knows the answers? If you take a mesh model created by another artist into programs such as Maya, Max4 or other 3d modeling apps and reconstruct the mesh by removing and adding polys etc. when does this model become your artistic creation and no longer that of the original artist. Do you ever actually completely own the mesh? Example: If you create a totally new figure based on the P4_nude woman does the original creator still own your many hours of work and your mesh....I am not refering to morphs!! Bowen & Charley

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12374

The short answer is that if you do a derivative mesh, you have to contact the originator and get their permission to distribute the derivative mesh.

Put it this way -- If I draw a picture and you trace it, can you sell it? It's not the same graphite.

Good question and you should seek and intellectual property attorney to sort it out, preferably one with engineering background and patent experience. Definitely one that can deal with mesh issues. Copyright is changing these days and what is TOS or appropriate ettiquate are different. You may find that what you can do under copyright law is not going to pass on a particular website, etc. Most site operators draw a more conservative line. So maybe the question to ask is not just what the copyright law is, but what the marketing requirements might be. It would defeat the purpose to be in compliance with copyright and not find a place to market.

Another example might be needed to explain my question a little better. If I create a model and only use the finger digits from another mesh would I still be breaching artistic rights. I understand that within some types of media not digitally manufactured that there is a 10% limit & once you exceed this you are in breach of the original artists legal rights, is this considered the same for digital artwork. If so then just by selling a texture map for any model that someone else created, that is remapped by software on your computer then this would mean that the unwritten law of artistic ownership must have been broken. would this also apply to morphs, hair, poses and clothing. Bowen & Charley ps whilst pondering this question another came up DOES TIME REALLY EXIST? OR IS IT ONLY RELATIVE TO PERSONKIND( please note the polictal correctness)

Generally, you should keep manipulating the original mesh until you see a divine light shine down on you and hear a choir of angels sing! Then you will know it is now YOUR mesh. =)

Well, the truth is, the amount that can be determined yours vs theirs is entirely subjective. If it were to actually go to court, it literally depends on the particular judge and/or jury combination that you draw. Some may rule one way and some the other. The one thing you can be sure of, if the derived work were to be used for some commercial purpose, and you and most likely the commercial entity brokering or using the item were to be sued, there would be business repercussion - credibility, embarassment, potential lost $$$, etc. It is soooooo much easier just to ask permission. At least you would be strting off with that answer. - Ray

I consider that no amount of point/polygon pushing, pulling or editing of a mesh created by someone else, would entitle you to call it your own... So to answer your question: "Do you ever actually completely own the mesh?" My answer would be, "No, never." Cheers

"If I create a model and only use the finger digits from another mesh would I still be breaching artistic rights." Yes. "I consider that no amount of point/polygon pushing, pulling or editing of a mesh created by someone else, would entitle you to call it your own..." I believe that to be correct.

I think we all have opinions and can debate it, but when the day is done, copyright law is so complicated that not even the lawyers and judges understand it completely. You need to ask the original creator or a lawyer.

I believe the hands/fingers from the Poser 4 female was one of the issues with an "original" figure not long ago, and they got in serious trouble, fast. Folks do examine meshes, and recognize "borrowing." You're always better off studying what's out there, but building and rigging your own from scratch - then all those hours will go toward building your skills. Be sure burn your steps from the beginning to backup CDs, and you'll be covered when someone questions your copyright. If you want to create a modification of an existing figure that folks who own the original can use, you can create an item that points to the original geometry file, or encode a .pcf, etc.

Thankyou everybody for your candour. We also believe that to alter someone else's work would be an infringement of the artists rights. My wife being an artist is the first to complain about this serious problem. The actual question was posed due to the fact that my wife is doing a multimedia certificate and part of the course is too complete a issues research paper. What did she decide to cover but copyrights of the artist both fine arts and digitally manipulated and wanted the unbiased views of other artisians. Bowen

Supposedly, that "change something more than 10% you can call it your own" is an Internet myth- if the other 90% of the model is made by someone else, than you CAN NOT claim it as yours. If you scanned in a copy of the Mona Lisa and recolored it blue and changed the background, could you claim that you made the artwork from scratch? Um, no. Changing something by 10% means you altered something- it is not an original creation by you nor can you copyright it as belonging to you. In fact, if you change a mesh by adding polygons or subdiving, you may change it "more than 10%", however, people in this industry are very sharp- they will see that your model is a derivative of another model and will jump all over you for mesh theft. So, whether you are "allowed" to do it becomes irrelevant- your models will be removed from sites and you will branded a thief.

"If you scanned in a copy of the Mona Lisa and recolored it blue and changed the background, could you claim that you made the artwork from scratch? Um, no." Not the best example - consider the picture "L.H.O.O.Q." (I think that's right) by Marcel Duchamp, which consists of a photo of the Mona Lisa with a moustache drawn on it.

You can find plenty of discussion and information on this topic in the Copyright Laws Forum on this site. Might be worth it to post your questions there and to browse the forum archive. ;^)

re: Ten Percent make it yours? If your house was robbed, and the police found a person with 10% of the missing items......

Attached Link: Copyright Laws Forum

If you scanned in a copy of the Mona Lisa and recolored it blue and changed the background, could you claim that you made the artwork from scratch? Um, no. Legally, yes, because La Giaconda (the Mona Lisa) is in the public domain. Of course, you will look like a fool for doing so.

I wouldn't claim to be an artist, but I would claim to be a lawyer (within my jurisdiction, of course). As far as U.S. copyright law is concerned, a modification of an original mesh, no matter how extensive, would still be a derivative work and thus infringe on the copyright of the creator. Of course, as a practical matter, it could be possible to so drastically alter a mesh that the creator might never suspect, let alone be able to prove the infringement. To give an extreme example, if someone took the P4 nude woman and modified her into a coffee table, deleting thousands of vertices in the process. Moreover, in such an extreme case, despite the myth of percentages, there is a "de minimus" rule that might be invoked as a defense. But the post above giving the hands example is correct; the hands were spotted right away. A complex mesh like a human figure is likely to have a number of unique points and relationships, including flaws in design, that are likely to be spotted in a similar derivative work.