First off, I'd like to start by saying how much I enjoy these forums. Part of that is the incredible work the moderators put into it, but another large chunk comes from the lack of l33t h4x0r kiddies, or as AS and Clay would tell you, trolls. It absolutely amazes me how little flaming there is, and how the community tends to look down on those who do. I enjoy coming here. That much said, I would also like to make a little comment towards the fact that being nice and helpful doesn't always aid people into becoming better. Surely, I'm not asking for us to flame every single Bryce newbie that comes around, but there's a difference between clapping on mediocrity and attempting to aid someone with more critical comments. Secondly, I would wonder exactly how much February's challenge meant to all of you. Personally I could not be happier at seeing myself and FWTempest winning. My joy knew no bounds when Tempest left the challenge topic in my "capable hands" and was gracious enough to confirm it when I came up with it. In my mind it was well-thought. Bryce means a lot to all of us, I'm sure, and nothing comes close to expelling our passions and talent as this tool does. Especially in light of the news we all received today, I think it would be fair to say that we all want Bryce to live. Otherwise we wouldn't be gods... Either because February was a short month, or because of the not-so-friendly comments given at the beginning by some of us, it would seem -to me, at least- that fewer people put thought and passion into this month's challenge than the rest (both in number and in the quality of submissions). Surely, there are some great renders, interesting twists on the idea of the God of Bryce, but it seemed that Bryce itself was capable of much more. Do we truly rely that much on imports, the cheap porn of poser characters and whatever else we can dig up in the latest freebie release? Not trying to bring anyone down, but again, it would seem that the ruffle that was made in the beginning was not as much on my lack of explanations, but more towards the fact that we couldn't import non-bryce works. This would seem to have affected some of the submissions. I've gone through this once before and I faced all your compounded critique, I even took every single submission and pointed out the obvious flaws or at least the things that I didn't understand or was entirely happy with, and the critique seemed to make sense. I'm not a Bryce master myself, I'm not good by many standards, but I can certainly see the common sense flaws that sometimes exist. Perhaps my mistake is that I compare Bryce to reality and I strive to make it as realistic as possible, I don't know. But, like I said, there is a difference between giving the go-ahead and applauding a mediocre piece and sitting down with the person and aiding them with the issues he or she is obviously struggling with. Simply put, I am wondering whether this challenge brought out the less-creative side in people, and whether that was because of the topic, little old me, or simply the fact that we all got used to a bit too many imports. Thank you for reading all of this. Mihnea Dumitru

As I first read your challenge topic I thought I am out of this one, as I NEVER ever modelled anything in Bryce except mountains. Than somebody commented it was to learn and I thought, why don't I really try and learn. And so I did. I sat 3 days on the idea of creating a castle. To import a picture on a plane? Sure it can be done better than that, if Wappen makes this incredible furniture in Bryce! Tried over and over to model a terrain into a castle and I succeeded and though it might not be the best picture, I am VERY PROUD on it. I really think I used Bryce completely as I never did before.
So I am very grateful for this challenge topic of yours, cause that is what it really was: a CHALLENGE.

perhaps... personally, my 'minimalist' entry was done that way on purpose. I wanted to do an image that most anyone, with a little thought and tinkering, could create as soon as they install the program. Because, IMHO, that is also one of Bryce's best features. Over the past year that I've been an active member of this forum, I have learned tons of exciting new techniques and intend to use them extensively in the future. But, at the moment, it was my opinion that all of those techniques were being done to death. I figured from drac's final challenge description that many would be using faked GI, and importing images to create terrains & lattices, and to texture them with. Therefore, I went 'retro' and tried to create the best landscape I could and texture it using nothing but tools and presets supplied with the program - while keeping with the theme of the challenge. BTW... there were no fancy lighting tricks used... just a radial light insided the 'temple' and a squashed, inverted cone with 'lit rays' preset, slightly tweaked. This is not to say that I was disappointed in this month's entries. I didn't feel like they were predictable or 'done to death' at all. On the contrary, I was very impressed with the ideas that many were able to bring to fruition using only Bryce's native tools. As I write this, I still haven't voted... because I just can't make up my mind. So, disregarding the controversy which arose, I think it was a successful challenge...

Draculaz, I like your honesty, I've also noticed that we all tend to be too much gentle with our fellows, but I also know that is nice recieve a good comment and when i give a comment i also know how is diffucult for a newbie to make whings but moreover sometimes I'd like to give a "constructive help" but my poor english is not enough... I also know we use too much imports, i try to do all with Bryce, and my moloch for the contest was all done in Bryce (unfortunately i didn't have time to finish it) and what I really HATE of Renderosity is that the most commented and viewed images are done exclusively with imports (pose by... figure by... clothes by... backgroung by... furniture by...), where has the joy of creating gone? Has really art become like ous society, a sort of fake freedom where we can only play with prepared objects and can't create anything by ourselves? I know there are a lot of goor modeller here, and usually i look only at their galleries, are ages that I don't make a full image gallery browsing. Your topic for the contest was nice, a bit risky but nice, and i can imagine that you expected a lot from us, but don't be sad, maybe was only this cold winter that leave us without inspirations.... or, like in my case, uor job leave us without time for our preferred 3D Program.

When I first read your description for Feb's challenge I thought "oh no, how can I make everything myself," but then I realized that this is what the monthly challenge is all about, learning to do what you haven't done before. So I worked on two pieces and posted the one I thought was better and I am proud of it because everything in my image I made myself and looking at all my models I think I can compete and even do better than whats out there for D/L. My image, I think, shows what Bryce can do. It has the terrain landscape with a Bryce tree and water but it also has items that Bryce was not supposed to do like the bridge and the tree swing. Then in the other box there is a room with all the furnishings you would expect, from the massive fireplace to the cigar in the ashtray and Bryce was not supposed to make these things either. And these scenes were being watch over by the all seeing eye which was covered in volumeric textures. I truely enjoyed this challenge because it was a challenge and I think I learnt many things from it. So thank you Draculaz for stretching my imagination and my understanding of my favoutie program. And I agree with FW, it was a successful challenge. Cat

Drac: Firstly, I have no real argument with any of your writing above. (Except maybe, if all one can create with Poser is cheap porn, then one is not trying very hard. :^) I use Poser a lot, and I think if you check my gallery, you'll find very little in the way of cheap porn, LOL. Maybe you should try to stay out of the Poser Gallery...I'm just kidding!) And none of the following is directed at you or anyone else in particular, it is just the way I look at things, personally. I just think we (members of the Bryce Forum) may need a better definition of what makes criticism constructive. If a comment makes a newbie quit trying, that isn't constructive. Constructive criticism is helpful. Constructive criticism is never mean or cruel. Constructive criticism always points out the good in an artwork, then suggests things that can make it better, often by giving instructive (and visual) examples (and if the work is good, or complete to one's viewpoint, do not withhold heartfelt praise). Constructive criticism should be inclusive of anyone who posts an artwork. It should never make the artist feel like an outsider. The attitude with which constructive criticism is given should make the artist feel good for having received it. The natural reaction to constructive criticism should be "thanks for the advice, I'll try that" not "what the heck do you know". If not, the criticism is probably not being given with a helpful attitude. Constructive criticism should not begin: "If I was creating this artwork what would I change?" but "Did the artist accomplish what they were trying to accomplish." Constructive criticism is about the artwork, not the critic. Good grief, and I just promised to stay off my soapbox. I don't think I even made it 24 hours. Sorry. Tjohn BTW, Drac, I feel I need to apologize for my first reaction to your challenge. It was due to a lack of understanding on my part, and after I saw the first few entries, I think I caught the spirit of your challenge, and enjoyed creating something without the use of imports for a change. Thanks.

Drac: you said, "...I am wondering whether this challenge brought out the less-creative side in people..." I have to agree with you, I found the challenge less challenging and I really don't know why. I had this vision in my head about 'The Hand of God' and that's what I created in about 5 hours inc render time. The fact that no imports were allowed didn't phase me at all. Bryce has everything you need.... It was a good idea for a challenge, but there's the breaks... What gets my goat however, is that a nameless few are spoiling things by entering work purporting(can't spell) to encompass the criterior of the challenge but obviously doing nothing of the sort. I remember my first challenge entry being thrown out (And rightly so) for not being a new work. Surely then we already have a precedent for disqualification? Indeed, some more honourable contributers disqualified themselves after questions were raised about the validity of their work. Would it not be possible for the challengers to disqualify entries that don't meet the challenge criterior? Sorry for ranting, thanks for reading... The Bryster

IMHO, I would have to agree that there have been several entries over the last few months that appear to me like someone came up with an interesting image and then thought "what story can I make up to make this fit the challenge topic?" Then, when it comes time to vote, all we see is the image and wonder how it fits in. I just figured stuff like that was always gonna happen, blew it off, and voted for another image that I felt 'fit' the challenge.

however, brian states: I quote you Mihnea: "Personally I could not be happier at seeing myself and FWTempest winning". This statement bugs me. Obviously in your mind your render and FWTempest's are of a higher calibre than the others. To me this implies that others didn't try as hard as you or just simply not as talented. How you can infer all of that from drac's comment is beyond me. If you were voted winner of one of these challenges, by a forum of your peers, wouldn't you be happy??? Lemme tell ya, though it's not quite as good as sex, it's a damn good feeling nonetheless. If you were to win this month's challenge, and were to reply to the accolade with something along the lines of "Thank you all, I couldn't be happier", I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't feel like you were implying that my skills were inferior. The general vote of the forum would be enough 'implication' that, for that month at least, they were.

How do you know if it fits the topic? A topic as "new beginnings" or "God of Bryce" can mean many different things to different artists.

Well I enjoyed the challenge and I may offer the models I made in free stuff if I can arrange it with ttops/ Cat

Just my 2c. Mainly because I haven't still participated in any challenge, but I had great pleasure to see the images and to vote them and to read the tips and comments (often making mine). I don't want to raise any flame, but only to state my opinion. The reason why I didn't participate was, in both cases (I'm here only since two months plus change), they were limited to "Bryce only". I feel postwork as an important matter in my images, so I stayed off the challenges. IMO, Bryce is a wonderful tool, and is ever more wonderful because it allows to import meshes, phototextures etc. I mean, I don't think there's any "cheating" going on... in the case one models a mesh into a modelling prog and import into Bryce, what's the problem? Other questions raised by Drac: aiding newbies. I couldn't agree more with what tjohn said. When I was a newbie, constructive criticism was what made my images become better and better. I'm a pro writer, so I have my truckful of experience in costructive and bad criticism about my novels, and the difference between one and the other is not only blatant, but -- I assure you -- deeply felt by the one who receives the criticism. You simply can't criticize an image without pointing out what is good and deserves further tweaking. (Alway MO, of course.) And I agree also with FWTempest on what he said in the above postings. Being judged by this forum as a winner is a big satisfaction and surely Drac couldn't be blamed in saying that he was pleased by that! I would be IMMENSELY pleased to win a challenge! Last thing: I don't think this month's images average quality was low. I spent a great time looking the voting gallery, and I was the first (or second) to express my votes because I simply coulnd't wait to see the whole bunch. But I have to admit that I always wondered if maybe someone could feel bad because I'm voting without participing... hope it's not the case. Stefano

Voting without participating? No problem IMHO. If only the participants voted, it wouldn't be as much fun. Happiness with winning? I took 3rd place one month and it still feels good. Not a lord it over everybody good, a recognized by my peers good.

I do 3d (in general) to make pictures that are a part of, or tell a story. To make these pictures, I make my models elsewhere (in general) because its easier for me to think in terms of polygons than in terms of lattices and negative volume booleans, then I import them to bryce to put it all together. The main reasons I like bryce are - its plantlife generator, the ease and variation that you can texture things, and how easy I find it to put scenes together in it (i.e. lighting, sky....). It fills a part of my picture creation workflow really well. Needless to say, some of the people in this forum can model things in bryce incredibly well and can truly make bryce sing all on its own. I'm not one of them, which is why I tend to stay out of the monthly challenges (as well as due to a lack of time), but I do follow the bryce challenge WIPs and techniques people use and the results very closely. When I saw the last topic - God of Bryce, I actually thought that was a damn tough topic to come up with an idea for. A lot of the other topics I've seen here were either fairly familiar to what people already do, or broad enough so that many ideas could be interpreted into that topic, but this one just felt hard to think up a big idea for. Maybe that made the creativity harder. I think it was a good topic, albiet a tough one. (Sorry for the ramble)

I feel like I need to apologize for my meager entry. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have entered it. I'm still new to Bryce, work 53 hrs a week, take a college class, try to keep up with my daughter's life and a few other things. So I don't get a lot of time to work on Bryce images. I did try to do more but it just wasn't getting the effect I was looking for so I went back to what I had originally created. So though it doesn't look like much, there was much more. But I shied away from using 2d planes. BUT- I am still going to enter the challenges dispite my work not being good enough, because that is the only way to get better and I was estatic last month when I actually got a couple of votes. It meant someone liked my entry. Other than my entry, I thought everyone had fantastic ideas and great work. I guess what I don't like about this challenge has been all the negative comments and accusations and such. Enough said. I did enjoy the topic, I just couldn't create what I had in mind. Angela

Ang, I don't think you have anything to apologize about at all. Frankly, yours was one of the ones that I had trouble not voting for. To me, I see something like that in real life (hubble photos, beautiful skies/sunsets, etc.) and I could be persuaded that there might be a higher power somewhere. Others will disagree with me. It's all subjective. Who's right? Who's wrong? and who's to say? I, personally, liked the image that you rendered and shared with us. I do wish that you had've fixed the corner of that terrain, though ;) But we should all understand time restrictions and that certain things must take priority over others. Some use these challenges as a way to measure themselves against others... some as a learning tool to better their work... some as a means to share their knowledge with others... some as something that might be cool to work on if they can find the time between other projects... some as all of these. Constructive criticism regarding techniques, layout, etc. is one thing, but it's hard for me to criticize anybody's effort just because of how much time I THINK they may have spent on it. Just vote for someone else and move on. And if you don't get the votes you feel you should have, don't look at it as a slight against your abilities... look at the ones who did get the votes and figure out what it is about that image that people like. As far as voting without participating... I think almost everyone out there is qualified enough to know what they like and pick it out of a line-up. There are no cash prizes here, no free items from the marketplace, nada, nothing, zilch. This is all for the FUN of it. But that's just my opinion, your actual mileage may vary. See store display for full details. Limit one per customer. Not valid with other offers. 8D

Drac, if nothing else your challenge topic has certainly stirred some emotions!!! As to being "immensly pleased"...you've every right to be. My image received four points last month and I was excited that I had gotten any at all!! I liked the fact that this challenge was Bryce only and that no post work was allowed. I have been playing around in Bryce since Bryce2. It's only been within the last 6 or 8 months that I have had poser so I tend to add people to a lot of things now...it's new. That being said, I have learned more about Bryce in the last few months of being involved here than I had learned in all of the preceding years combined. The truth of the matter is that without this forum I could not have created my entry this month. I learned from texture tutorials by Roobol and Agent Smith. I used a 2d image from DoubleCrash's gallery. I have been pushed to try new things just by looking through the galleries of the likes of FW Tempest, Ornlu, tjohn, Agent Smith and ICM Graphics...to name but a few. The monthly challenge typically pushes me to try something more ambitious than the norm, not less...and this one pushed me quite a bit. I thought the limitations were good, I thought the explanation was sufficient and I thought the interpretations were varied enough to make it interesting. I'm sorry if there are some who feel that the efforts put forth this month were somehow less creative. But for me, this challenge allowed me to add some new tools to my quiver and, I hope, raised the level of what I can do going forward. Sorry for rambling...again....

This was a very interisting challenge. I did not compete because I need to model in other applications. I cannot for the life of me get used to modeling in Bryce. To me Bryce is for rendering, texturing, and animating. Yeah you can do some cool modeling in Bryce, but you have to work like a dog in order to do it. The lack of a 4 pane interface and inability to zoom in when in side or top views makes modeling in Bryce impossible for me to do. I love Bryce and the folks here constantly amaze and educate me with their inventiveness, artful talent, and dedication. Please don't hate me because I am a Bryce modeling retard. Time on this orb is too short to spend it trying to do something the hard way, when there are other ways available to do it. To all the Bryce only modelers I say " Five stars, three cheers, and two thumbs up. Stand tall and be proud!!"

Actually, GG, if I understand your statement, you CAN zoom in when in any orthographic view. Just make sure the object is selected, then hit the plus sign at the bottom right side (you should also be in wireframe mode, not rendered.)

I personally thought this month's challenge topic sucked. Drac, your description of dieties and us being god's of bryce (or anything) was a bit too close to religious lines that I dont like to cross. Of course, I dont hold anyone to the same lines so this is just offensive to me. I also found your list of what you thought fit the topic was unacceptable. Art to me is about freedom... exploring the imagination with as little boundaries as possible. I think a challenge winner going into such detail about what you should or shouldnt do in one's art is counter productive. I also think it's down right silly to not allow imported meshes while at the same time allowing picture composites (2d picts). This was hardly a pure bryce challenge, imo. All that aside, I think the entries were wonderful. Use of 2d picts, off topic entries, mediocre scenes, underworked or not, has nothing to do with how much we can appreciate the beauty in each one's efforts and imagination. Blue

I must admit I was a little disappointed when I read the rules for the Feb. challenge, but only because I knew I wasnt up to it personally, and having collected eight points in my first attempt the previous month,I had been looking forward to it. (BTW I can understand Drac being happy winning. Those eight points sent me over the moon) That said, I think it was a worthwhile challenge and a lot of people seem to have got much from it. I wouldnt want restrictions like that evry month but every now and again must be good, It is a challenge, after all. I don`t want to learn to model in Bryce. If I ever get round to learning 3d modeling it will be with a specialist program. While I admire anyone who can model, and even more so those who then use those models in their own work, I do not feel any less of a Brycer because I import models made by others. To me, Bryce is analagous with photography, and most photographers do not build their props. Their skill is in the original concept then arranging and lighting their subject. My only criticism of such restrictions is that I think a lot of very interesting work may have been lost because of them, because it was a cracking subject.

I thought it was a good topic choice and the concept of no imports was very clearly stated. Also - I had no idea I could have voted even when I didn't enter something - otherwise I would have voted. God of Bryce did not throw me of religiously - he just meant the ruler of Bryce aka the Wizard behind the curtain. The issue of trust... that should never have happened - you guys have a good forum here and you've got to take what people contribute at face value and not question their techniques. I know a metaball hand from a Poser one and that hand was clearly a well-executed metaball hand. Emotions are running high right now with Catlin's news, but the FACT is Bryce has always been about a Community not an application. This community aspect dates back to 1993-1994 when I was tuckersaur on AOL and the AOL chatroom for HSC/Bryce was jumping with new discovery. We had a gallery that we all submitted images to and HSC would decide which images were worthy of it. Getting an image in there was like Image of the Day on some software sites - you were on cloud nine when they picked your image. Just like you do here - we were constantly pushing each other and what could be created in Bryce. It was the community that pushed Bryce to make ocean waves in Version1. It was the community that pushed Bryce to make an actual working telescope in Bryce2. It was the community that pushed Bryce to make the very first desktop video production of Planetary Traveler. Never lose sight of that - Bryce5 could very well be the last one, but the community will continue to make it viable - the community will continue to make it enjoyable - the community will continue to take it beyond an ordinary piece of software. Without the community Bryce is just a basic 3d program that has no modeler and a slow renderer. Sure it allows model imports, but how on earth did it survive this long? I'll tell you what you already know. It took the community to see that the Terrain Editor is very cool modeler and the skies are a ready made lighting system. It took the community to look past render speed and see the beauty in Bryce renders. In the hands of the community Bryce is religion, Bryce is life! Bryce is who we all are inside. Bryce is the ONLY software I've seen that inspires such loyalty and freedom. It never ceases to amaze me how far the community has taken it. Keep taking it further - rumors of its death are highly premature. Scott : )

I deleted a fiery post I made earlier. Thanks FWTempest for the strait arrow. In a sleepy haze I think I realize now missed the point.

I agree with Drac the community needs a lot more constructive critism.

I don't agree that this months entries "brought out the less-creative side in people". I would say that some of the executions were rougher and less involved than others. Creativity is something at can't be measured empirically. There were very diverse solutions to the challenge.

To be honest the challenge itself was more technical in nature given the technical aspects of modeling in Bryce. I really applaud those that took a shot at the metaball hands and the beginners that gave it there all. I believe the contest, to a large degree, isolated the beginner users and those more comfortable making their models in programs that can model better.

Brian Hubenig

Ok, my face is red, my earlier post should have read. FWTempest - Thanks, and I chuckle too about that corner, because as soon as I got some input from the folks here and found out what was wrong I fixed it. But I forgot to replace my entry, wasn't till I looked at the entry page and saw that block, ah well. I hope I can do better in March, I'll turn a year older, maybe wiser too? So in my defense of getting FWTempest's name wrong, I have two possibilities. One I'm getting senile! And two and this is a legit excuse, I kind of mix you two up, because of your talents and helpfulness.

I've only been here a short while and this was my first entry to a challenge. I entered sort of late, because I had a hard time with the subject and the rules. My interpretation of the rules was that the work had to be done entirely in Bryce. To me, this meant no use of outside resources. Not even an image that was created previously and placed on an object, whether it is used as a terrain map or on a 2d piece or a texture. My interpretation may be wrong, because it is obvious that this is one of Bryces capabilities. I, myself use this technique often. The subject was difficult in that it was hard to put aside religious beliefs. In any case, I gave it a shot and had a lot of fun with the challenge. If I may make a suggestion. Because the topic was a difficult one to portray, and future topics might be as hard to represent. It might be a good idea to post the entry's title and authors interpretation as to how it fits the topic of the challenge.

thank you all.

Drac, I think part of the problem with fewer entries was the shortness of February coupled with people having other demands on their time. That being said, I think what people came up with was interesting and creative. How do you illustrate 'awe and grandeur'? The problem I have with criticism is that a lot of it is aimed at technique. It's good to advise and help people to improve their technique, this forum is a valuable resource for that and I'm grateful to everyone who contributes. But technique is not art. Maybe we all need to hang out in the Art Theory forum, or maybe build a special 'art tutorial link section, I don't know. What I do know is that if I am trying to capture a mood, I need to know what would best express that mood. Maybe I can't do that without better technique, maybe I just need to relax. Anyway, that's my input on the subject of criticism. I think any challenge topic that generates this much thought is an excellent topic. Lin ps - if my entries don't get any points, are my contributions pointless? ;)

I completely agree with TJohns comments about constructive critisism. The only problem is that some people dont take it too kindly. I remember the first ever post i made to a gallery picture and then the remarks i got back from the picture author (i cant remember who ;) ) who didnt like my comments at all, it took 3 messages to convince him i was just trying to help. Without critisism how can any of us improve ourselves.

I didn't get any votes on my image. I think this is because I didn't take the title, "God of Bryce" as litterally as others. My image had nothing to do with a "God" or "Diety". I figured the idea behind it was to create things not originally intended with bryce. Hence the modeled furniture in my image. I think that this challenge was confusing for a lot of people, but I also don't think that it's anything to get extremely angered or depressed over. Getting no votes hasn't put a stopper on my desire to create, nor has it made me never want to enter a monthly challenge. Being my first time ever taking part in a monthly challenge, and I have found nothing negative about it, except that, in my opinion, a lot of artists are taking things way to seriously. I had a lot of fun doing this, and I've seen some great images. And I am waiting anxiously for next months challenge!!!

I'm still trying to get one vote... :) and Beauty is truly in the Eye of the beholder. Great work everyone, always...

I would like to say that I love critism. How can I improve if I do not have people telling what they think that I am doing wrong. But I do agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to help someone see what is wrong. First though to the artist, there is always room for improvement, when you post you should expect feedback, and not always is that feedback positive. I am always grateful for help given. As far as this month's challenge goes I had some trouble with it because of the theme. I have only one God. But I looked at it in a different way. NOT as THE GOD, but as a tool to unlock the creativeness that is inside us all. I have only entered two challenges and I find that they do exactly that CHALLENGE. How can a person learn if not challenged. As far as the rules went I had no problems with that (maybe cause I am new to all of this). My entry was not as good as some others but it was not as bad as my entry last month. I saw how much I had learned in the month since the last challenge and was very pleased. I need no votes to see improvement in myself and I strive to become as talented as even a few of the artists here. I hate to see strife and upset. I have come to love this place in the two months that I have been visiting here and have learned so much from everyone even if they are not aware of it. Thank You Tammy

I think it would be a shame if we get an ethos of "either you produce a professional quality pic or you shouldn't enter" - which is the message I'm getting from some comments. These challenges are meant to be fun. Some people don't have so much skill and some don't have so much time, but I myself would prefer that they enter what they can than that they sit on the sidelines. As for "Bryce only", yes, you can hammer in a nail with a saw if you like a challenge. See what a saw is capable of! Push it to the limits!

Good point Phantast!