I've noticed that in the Art Gallery area no one ever seems to say anything about a picture except "I liked this" and "this was really great", etc., and it makes me a bit nervous about coming here and doing actual critiques. It also makes me wonder what the point of posting stuff in the gallery is. I don't want to have 10 000 people (how many members does Renderosity have?) if all I get out of it is a "times viewed" stat, and all they get is a "ew, why did I waste time downloading that?" I was in a "everyone says nice things" writing group once, and I stopped going. Having people tell you your work is amazing and imaginative is all to the good, but I'd rather have them tell me that they didn't understand this bit, and that that bit remineded them of something funny when they didn't think it was supposed to, and by the way the ending seemed to fall a bit flat. If it isn't good enough to get published, I want to know what needs fixing. But I understand that people who aren't as determined to go pro as I am, don't always appreciate that sort of thing? And even the gentlest critique hurts. I get them and I get depressed, and I whine at my husband and so forth. I don't want to do that to anyone who doesn't want what it will get them. What do the rest of you think? I know several of you asked Crescent to critique lasts months' challenge entries, so I can't be the only one who wants some constructive critiscism. Does that go for your art work too? Would you like more in-debth analysis than you usually get in the gallery?

I'd like constructive feedback, (on my pictures and writing) which can be as hard to give sometimes as it is to take :-) I can only give my opinion as a reader, but I do try to be as honest as possible and suggest improvements if I think they'd be a good idea on other peoples work. I'd rather twenty people looked at a picture of mine (or bit of writing) and five of them commented on how to improve it, than get one thousand views of some bit of tat I've knocked up in a spare moment with one comment of "Great work". (not that I get one thousand views on anything I produce lol) I don't do great work. But I'd like to one day. That's why I post here and in the beginners section. I want some help to improve. I would like to know when I get something right or wrong. When I self critique I throw everything in the bin. If anyone likes what I post in the interim then that's great :-) The nicest thing I ever get happen to me here at Renderostiy, is when someone reads some of my work on my home page and im's me with suggestions for improvement. Sadly it doesn't happen often. I know, I've got them all archived. Shanna :-) Still wearing L-plates AND inflatable arm bands.

Well, some of the problems with poetry is that it's subjective and extremly personal. That makes it a hard one to critique. Stories, editorials, scripts those are easier and should be critiqued more often. With everything but poetry, you can pcik out grammatical errors, dry dialouge, etc. So yes, the door should be open to more constructive criticism than simply, "I liked it." However, many people don't feel comfortable giving stronger critiques because they doubt their own abilities and feel they aren't "qualified" to say more. I find this alot with replies to my own artwork. Many of my fellow Rhino modelers don't fully understand what is required to make an organic model and avoid negative critiques of my models due to that. The same can be said for my drawings, though of late, the critiquing has improved. I had to develop a different interpretation of how critiquing should work because of my experience in the galleries. Instead of looking for a, "fix this", I looked for a, "I liked this part". Using the positive feedback to tell me what I did right (causing me to repeat it) while varying the bits that were ignored in my later models. So, while waiting for the rare negative but helpful critique, take a look at what folks are saying they liked about your work...or if it's not mentioned, maybe send the member an IM thanking them and asking if there were any bits in particular that stood out. I personally thank everyone who comments on my work in one form or another (via IM or by returning the favor and finding something in their gallery I like).

ooooh...forgot to spell check.

I know my style in graphics and in writing are not the preferred styles on the forums. I can't tell a person they are wrong for not doing what I do...they are doing what is right for them. I really don't feel I have any credentials for providing critiques. I'm not a published writer. I'm not an editor. I'n not an artist. I didn't win awards in school for my abilities. I'm not a teacher. I'm not trained in any particular skills, nor do I study a particular form. Why would anyone care what I think? They should not. If they do, then they need to recheck their priorities. I don't open my graphics up to feedback because the "wow, this great" doesn't do me any good and the "this sucks" tells me nothing useful, and there is precious few who take the time to provide more input than that. I already know I'm not an artist and not doing the kind of graphics that would get lots of views. That was not my goal. Still isn't. I try, in my writing, to tell the truth of my story as best I can. I can't write like someone else, so some of the advice I've been given is not advice I can take (is it possible to change a style?) nor do I feel qualified in any respect to give criticism because I acknowledge that my preferences are, at best, the viewpoint of a minority of one. To be honest, I don't know what people want when they ask for feedback. In my heart of hearts, I think they want to be told they are wonderful. If I can't say that with any honesty, I would rather be silent than hurt someone's feelings. But sometimes I am silent because a graphic or piece of writing so moves me that it wouldn't benefit from additional comment from me. Catch 22. When I have given negative feedback, I've ended up in quarrels where the person defends what they are doing as if I am attacking the center of their universe. I don't really want to have any more of that kind of conversation. Better to be silent then.

Good point. It helps if people are willing to take the criticism they've opened themselves up to.

There's been problems with people hitting the roof if they received a less-than-stellar critique. I'm not talking about "You suck" comments, but merely, "This is good, but you might want to add something here" comments. I think it's sad that people can't handle honest, useful criticism. Alot of people are also afraid to criticize, that they'll hurt the person's feelings. We've also had some threads where people say, "No gallery = no right to critique" because we get the occasional no-talent troll. On the other hand, as someone pointed out in the Poser Forum today, you don't need to be an expert with tons of masterpieces to have an informed opinion. Me, I'm a b****, so I'll critique anything. ;-) Actually, there's a few things I won't critique, like real-life stories because I'm not comfortable with commenting on those (gee, I don't think it's believable that you felt that way?!?), and a few things have hit far too close to home, but otherwise I have an opinion on everything. I figure that there's no reason to have gallery comments if you can't be (politely) honest. That said, it takes me a while to critique things because I look things over several times and edit my comments several times before I'm satisfied with my critique. I can't claim I take as much time critiquing as the artist took with the original work, but I do take time. I'm not afraid to critique most things because I may not be an expert, but in those (many) cases I can look at things from a layman's point of view, and isn't that who we try to reach most of the time - the average person on the street? I'd rather hear a friend honestly say that they were entertained than have a literary expert expound on the amazing mythic symobolism I've invoked. What you may want to do is to find a few people whose opinions you trust and ask them to form a critique club; you alert each other when you've posted new pictures so everyone can critique and get critiqued. Personally, I think that good critics (and editors) are highly underrated. Then again, I have the suspicion that I'm a better critic than artist, so maybe it's just a falter ego at work. (Photoshop and Poser are out to get me, I swear!) Cheers!

What most people don't see in at least my posts on other peoples artwork is that I will say this needs fixed and then I will repost a better comment.. And I truly appreciate it when others tell me what needs to be fixed.. either in my written or my graphic work. It is important to learning that we receive criticism.

Personally I love to get critiques. But then I have a pretty thick hide. Probably comes from the fact that I can't spell my way out of a paper bag and therefore grew up having my stuff read and reread by my mom and sisters before turning it in. As a result I always got very good grades in my English classes, so I know the value of constructive criticism. Like Crescent, I tend to avoid critiques on things that seem intensely personal since I have no idea how raw the nerves are in such cases. And I am no poet, so my critiques on poetry are lame at best. I've been in writer's groups before and unless they are willing to give (and take) frank constructive criticism they become useless. I will never improve via participation in a mutual admiration society. One of the reasons I post here is that I can count on some folks to give me real critiques that I can use to improve my writing. I prefer to get my C&C in the open forum (one good comment can lead to another as seen in the last challenge C&C thread), but IM works too. I do like the idea of a C&C circle, as Crescent suggested. I'm game. Anyone else? jon

I would actually prefer to have whatever critique done on my work in open forum for others to see.. perhaps they are working with the same sort of problems and not brave enough to post yet.. and can see by whatever mistakes others have made how to correct them.

I think, if this doesn't sound too silly, it would be healthy (if you started such a group) to set down some ground rules. What is constructive feedback (as opposed to nitpicking? What is valid criticism versus a difference in a opiniion? What I find, often, is that people will say, "you're not doing this right," when they really mean, "you aren't doing it the way I would do it." The goal should not be a uniform style but to bring out the best in each individual. I would suggest, mildly, that a workshop on giving feedback might be helpful. There is a difference between steamrolling a person with your opinion and giving them information that helps them grow in their art. Sometimes in the midst of criticism, which is so easy, we forget that creating can be very hard for some people. And the writers and artists need to keep in mind that no one's opinion is the final word if you yourself believe strongly in what you are doing. You may tell me I need to change the way I write. It is up to me whether or not I want to write like you or like myself. I believe, at heart, I have no choice. I'd rather be silent altogether than to try to be someone else. But that's just me.

Lots of good points made above. It's (kind of) a difficult concept for me to understand people who get upset at constructive criticism. Especially when the gallery has a "tag" on it that solicits helpful comments for improvement. I agree with "Sho". When someone takes a look at something you did and has enough interest in it to spend time making suggestions, it feels good. AND, (possibly) helps. So, what are the reasons people don't offer critiques (very often)? (1) To some degree, critiquers (sp?) are "laying it on the line" and could receive sharp disagreement (as mentioned by dialyn). I guess it's natural to shy away from that. (2) People are probably concerned they don't have the "credentials" to offer suggestion. Either in talent or experience. I feel that way frequently. Accordingly, I couch any suggestions I make as those of a reader (or viewer) and not necessarily a writer (or artist). After all, people are targeting readers and viewers so why NOT see what they felt. (3) Perhaps the piece needs SO much help, one throws up their hands rather than list 20 (as an example) things wrong with a piece. (4) Time. Something that I certainly seem to have less of as I get older. Sometimes, I just don't have the time to spend on really analyzing something and then listing some suggestions. I suspect there are a lot of people in the world like that. In this forum, we seem to like feedback and discussion. I've rarely seen attacks and defensiveness. I think people want to know if a character was "fleshed out" well or if a story or poem made you chuckle, ponder, angry, or sad. Writing is a bit different, IMHO, than art. You know what is in your head and would like to know if it translated to paper. Also, an opportunity to hear suggestions about plots or characters you may never have even thought of. So, when a story gets my interest (or a piece of art), I'll comment on it with any suggestions I feel worthy (time permitting...grin). For example, I really liked _A's poem and offered (hopefully, gently) and took time to offer suggestions. He (she?) discarded all but one. I hope there was no offense taken and I certainly took none. In closing (yeah, I'm almost done), perhaps the art gallery should have that "tag" I referenced removed. Just call it a show gallery. Then people wanting suggestions could just post in WIP and move it when finalized. Lots of times, people are told that if they really want help to post it in the forum. I'm not sure that's ideal either as the forums could be become a jammed-up series of graphics that really belong in a WIP gallery. But, as Dennis Miller would say, "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

Or you could be right. I want to clarify something. Bad criticism is easy; constructive feedback is not. The problem is, that if the writer (or artist) knew what to do, they probably would have done it. So when you say to me, "you need to flesh out your characters more," it leaves me thinking, "yeah, well, how do I do that...what's missing?" Because in my mind and imagination, the characters are fleshed out. And my graphics are the best I can do that day. They aren't perfect but, on the other hand, they are as perfect as they are going to be that day. Not everything you see that is imperfect is a work in progress. Or you might say, everything you see is a work in progress because there are very few cases in which something could not be improved. Being imperfect is one of the delights of being human. The problem is if your goal is perfection, you'll never finish. That has been the death of many writing careers. I just saw a little segment on the competion between Picasso and Matisse, and how they inspired each other to create new forms and explore new techniques. I'm probably wrong about this, but I wonder if more isn't accomplished toward stimulating creativity when we are challenged than when we are criticized. I don't know that the reader or viewer is the best judge. I really don't. If you like fantasy barbarians and you are condemned to look at my art, you are going to hate it and say, as a viewer, this is bad you don't have any barbarians in it. But I didn't want any barbarians in my art. How valuable is that as feedback? I got some very good feedback from someone who had expertise and told me I wasn't focusing my lights well enough so that my shadows were going in unnatural directions. Well, now that helped. Because I was unconscious of the fact that I could move the lights. I had one of those moments of enlightenment where someone who knew what they were doing was generous enough to teach me, or give me tools, to improve what I was doing. If you are on the receiving end of criticism, compliments, or feedback, I think it is wise to consider the source. And just because someone says to change something, I hope we all know we have the choice whether or not to do it. I know that is an obvious statement, but I have gift for that.

Heck, if I see something I like, I'll drop in and comment. If I see something I think is 'almost there', I'll make a suggestion, especially if it's a quick fix (like scaling, textures, etc). Spelling is a temptation sometimes (some of the most creative spelling I've seen is from artists..and folks like me who dabble from time to time..;) but I've mellowed on it. If it's just out of the box, and the person doesn't have a handle on the package yet, I'll pass them by, because I've been there myself (still learning..uh Wings 3d, Anim8tor, Bryce, Poser, and have a few on the back burner..;)
I'll accept any constructive criticism..you can say I suck, but only if you can tell me why..;) I've gotten some good pointers from folks, and it's improved my artwork a bit, so I can always be going up from where I am. Any feedback is helpful..so don't be afraid to be helpful..;)

Ooh, I started a hot topic. :) (And then I had to switch computers and ask for my password because of course I don't remember things like that, that's what my computer is for and so forth.) As far as writing goes, I'm already in two other critique groups. (And, er, I guess I have credentials, too, because , well, I've sold a couple things... although I fail to see how that would automatically make me a competent critquer -- it certainly doesn't make me a good speller.) But with art I feel like an absolute newcomer, and awkward and not worthy to judge. I haven't noticed that it stops me from having an opinion, it just makes me less inclined to air it. But worse, without other critiques to look at, I don't even have a vocabulary to express my opinion in, and I flounder around not knowing how to say what I think.