For some time now, a site called Simfreaks has been making /gorgeous/ meshes for The Sims using poser hair objects in it. At first, it was just the ones that come with p4, however, in the past they've used a style by Jim Burton and other such things. Because of their nature, they can't be used by p4 people, but my question is this. Is it still piracy if they're redistributing a low res mesh that used to be a product geometry?

Isn't that were Jerome and Ffion hang thier (virtual) hats? Unless they've started doing new heads, none of the one I have look like poser hair. As far as I know you can't seperate the head and hair on a sims mesh either. Also, calling them a lor-res mesh would be an understatement. These things are ultra low-res. later jb

Yes, unless they have permission. If the mesh original source is the work of someone else, it is piracy if they're releasing it to the public. Of course, if they've changed the mesh enough, it becomes hard to prove. I'd let Jim know and point him to the site. As the author, it's up to him to deal with it. Do they seem to be using the same textures? Sometimes we forget that the mesh isn't the only thing that is propriatory.

Yes, it is. And they've ripped Studio Maya hair, too. And you can seperate it, with the right tools and a bit of patience. And what makes me personally mad is they claim it's /their/ work and none other's.

I don't know if they have permission or not. Fionn claims the work as their own, no one else's. Most artists require at least a credit. I paid money to join this site to get to the /non/ pirated objects, and found the ones that aren't. In short, they're making money off of this.

praxis, If the orginal mesh is combined, in whole or in part, with another mesh, it still is propriatory.If here was someone combining a skirt from one figure with a top from another and sleeves from another. Three creators had their work stolen. Of course, if they saw the orginal and liked it, they may have made a mesh from scratch that resembles the original but didn't use any parts from it. That's legal, so long as they didn't use the orginal as a base. Again, it becomes very hard to prove when the mesh has been dramaticly changed.

This doesn't just resemble the Studio Maya side ponytail. It /is/. I just compared the image of it with an image of the ptail with the transparencies at zero. Same little hair placements, everything, just without the nice transmapping.

I guess my point is, you could make some of this stuff just by looking at a picture, (if you had the talent :) It is ultra low-res, so to compare a tiny gif/jpeg with a poser render, with or without transparencies, then point the finger is, I think, a bit much... As for not being able to seperate the hair and head, my point is that it'd pointless to do so, you can only use one head and one body per sim, the hair isn't interchangable, and I doubt you'd be able to reconstruct the original hair from that seperated hair model. They have a lot of heads, I've got most of them, some look like poser hair, yes. just the same as they look like shrunen fashion photographs. They have hair in there that pre-dates some poser freebies, but you done hear them claiming somebody stole thier meshes... Looking like somebdody else's work isn't a crime. Lets face it, Poser is a knock of of nature's handy work :) But if Anton would like to do the usual forensics on what, (in the right light, with a following wind) could be though of as bombshel hair, then I guess we'll know for sure. Personally I doubt it. later jb

lol... (I wondered when something like this would pop up around here) yes, I have seen plenty of poser hair and objects used in 3d gaming. Want to check meshes... go get milkshape3d and go look at it. That's what they use most of the time to import them. ignore praxis22... I was around this mess long enough to know that it happens all the time. Its not that hard to reduce the polygons with a 3d program to make it lowres.

Attached Link: http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/ms3d/index.html

the list of file formats that Milkshape handles. you'll find that you can import and export Sim meshes. :-) happy hunting :)

I have held my tounge on this subject for a very long time now. I play the Sims and have a subscription to SimFreaks, and as soon as they put up new hairstyles, I know what their Poser equivalent is. But it's not just hair meshes...it's also furniture. Quite a bit of the Egyptian furniture theme they ran a while back was Anton's work, and his textures. And let it be noted that SimFreaks is a PAY site. I pay 6 dollars a month for the subscription...so that is something else to take into consideration. I can take screenshots for anyone who wants to see for themselves. Just let me know. -Batty-

Attached Link: http://www.simfreaks.com

We also paid for those meshes and we read the copyright details. If any of the artists feel we have infringed on their copyrights, they are more than welcome to contact me through our support. support@simfreaks.com Heather Castillo Owner, SimFreaks.com

The keyword here would be "redistribution" ... If there's any redistribution so someone could use the mesh outside of simfreaks.com without the need to buy the original mesh then I think there's a problem. Just a bystander, I don't play sims or ever gone to simfreaks.com or any other 3d game site... Generally speaking with 3d games... the graphics have gotten too good they give me motion sickness lol

Hi. My name is Fionn, and I am one of the parties in question here. First of all, I want you guys to know that I am a huge supporter of Renderosity (as my account would show) and I faithfully purchase all meshes that I have used. Now, the question remains...am I stealing these? God, I hope not. Am I violating copyright through unauthorized distribution? Here is what happens. About 50% of the meshes that I used in the past (give or take several original pieces) used work that was from various artists in the community. I use Rhino to do most of my stuff now, but there are several times, even of late, that I have used these meshes to help our community. I can't find better quality, and happily admit that many appreciate them on a different level. But, let me address a couple of issues that were brought up in this forum. #1 credit. Agreed. It has been an oversite on my part (though I was sure to credit the Studio Maya mesh that I used recently)and will be rectified. I assumed too much in the area of the usability of the given material, and will be sure to give the credit where it is due. While I have freely admitted my use of this website and the artist's files to everyone, however, I want to make sure that I have corrected this error. My readme. txt files include such credit, but let's be honest...no one reads those. #2) Backwards compatibility. The process with which I have to convert the meshes available here to products available for the use in the Sims makes it extremely difficult, nay impossible, to convert them back to use in Poser. I shouldn't say impossible...there are people out there with much greater skills than I that could do it, but why would they want to when the products are readily available here? To save a few bucks? The time taken would far outweigh the advantage of saving the pennies. And, if they are that good, they should be providing content here. There are three areas of concentration with which the files would be nearly impossible to reuse, and I want to outline those, if I may. A) Shaping. In order to use them, I have to enlarge and reshape the files. In many cases, I have to duplicate frontal faces, and of course, the .skn format, used by the Sims program, does not even support bump mapping, so the conversion process dumps that aspect of the object files entirely. I also have to attach them to default cranium files in Poser. B) Poly Reduction. Many of the lovely subtleties of meshes available here are entirely lost due to the tremendous polygon reduction that has to occur. In most cases, 90% of the original polygons are lost, leaving only the border and shape of the hairstyle. I use 3D Studio and a couple of prioprietary vert reducers to accomplish this. As a rule, these files must be reduced to something shy of 4000 vertices; converting to less than 1 mb. of file space, once the conversion is made to the Sim's format, .skn. What this means, of course, is that even if someone could take these meshes, change them to the appropriate size needed for Poser conversion, resize, then the product would be far inferior. Indeed, much of the effect that keeps these files looking like their Poser counterparts is illusory. C) UV Mapping. This is the area with which it would be impossible to do a backward conversion. In order to work in the Sims, I have to fit my meshes on a standard 128x128 bitmap, and as such, only 40% of that area is available for mapping with the hair. So, the UV mapping has to change. In many cases, I opt for conserving what I can of the mesh author's intended mapping, but I rarely can. So, most of the reconstruction occurs in this area. I hope I have helped with this issue some. It is not my intent to defraud or discourage this community in any way. I have learned lots of meshing techiniques from the experts here, and have in no way, I hope, defamed or stolen their great work. Also, I want to say this: if any artist feels that the work is a violation of the understood rules for purchase here at Renderosity (or at DAZ), or is an abuse of freely available policy (as in the case of Studio Maya), please e-mail me at barbarosx@comcast.net, and I will IMMEDIATELY take whatever steps are necessary to correct the problem. I want to quickly address Batty's comment...we are a PAY site because we believe in the purchase of materials that we have used, and that payment helps to compensate for that. Last year alone, I spent about $400 in the purchase of meshes (I know...I did my taxes) and gladly support the artists when those new and great meshes are made available with my funds. As to the furniture, that comment is a little misleading because while my meshes might be remotely usable in a backwards way, the furniture is really just sprite snapshots of the 3D file, and not convertible in any way, in any other format. In that case, no part of that file could ever be reproduced by anyone. I welcome all comments and questions at the posted e-mail address. Thanks for your time. Fionn

AprilYSH The Sims is actually a hybrid game of 3D body meshes and skins and 2D world. There is no 3D motion sickness ;) I do my work in 3D, then convert it to sprite art through a series of renders.

In case any one is confused what a sprite is . Its about the equivalent of a square prop in poser with photos aplyed , masked and transed. It only takes a image and makes the rest transparent so they are useing renders of 2 sides of a obj more or less.

I was into CounterStrike for a while. Might get back into it now that I can host games. CS uses decals and sprites. There's a program called Hammer that can be used to make maps with. I have the Game Studio software as well and looked at the demo of MilkShape (EIU and VisUp vrml poly reducer are enough for me.) Yada yada. I would still want to create my own stuff if I was going to call it my own stuff, or I'd want permission and credits to use other folks' stuff. But you never know, maybe for a very small royalty, or nothing at all, the artists will work this out. Its nice to see some open discussion on this and I wish the best for all involved.

Bingo. My main concern is not that someone can get at the files. I've worked with Sims meshes, and they're /very/ low res. Just a few faces, actually. My concern is credit. I've downloaded some of these files, Fionn, because I like the work, and I usually read the readme files just to make sure I'm installing right. No credits, as far as I've seen. As for the furniture, that's impossible to recreate in poser, because it's just a picture, nothing more. They own the rights to the picture because they bought the model and rendered it. But the heads...?

Attached Link: Safe and fun use of Poser stuff as Sprites

The use of images to create sprites would be harmless as that the items are image/trans based. Copyright in the Poser community has traditionaly been limited to creating image based content only. It is true Poser products are not , for the most part, offered in anyway meant as development tools for creating other mesh products. Though I think the use here is harmless to the creators, reverse enginneering is typically not permitted. It is true that the convertions are pretty much useless after converted to Sims format. The meshes are not anything useable if ripped back out of Sims. I do know that this site pulls so much bandwidth that they are mostly just concerned with only covering their bandwidth and not profit. I would suggest that a happy solution would be to for the site to seek permission from the arist to modify/convert items in exchange for some publicity. Also, perhaps credit could be exchanged by mention on the site or a banner somewhere. The sims is fun and I am sure many SIms customers would be very interested to learn about Poser and what we do as well. Regards, Anton

Anton, Sure thing! Will make a note to get that done this week. Keep up the great work. :D

Heather, Fionn,

I want to thank you both for coming over here to post and clarify. :)
Thank you for the information you've given as well, it clears up all the questions I had. I believe you deserve every penny you earn with the subscriptions, I know it has to be a massive headache and amount of work to run SimFreaks.

My main worry was with credit. As incredibly touchy as the Sims community is about credits and recycling other peoples work into another form and distributing it, I was expecting to see mention of what was used and from whom it came-not just a thank you to the creators of plugins for Poser and 3ds Max and Daz and R'osity. I was expecting to see a credit to the original mesh artists.

For Sims players who have no knowledge of Poser, it is a mite misleading for them to think or assume that all the work has been done from scratch.If there is no mention of it, that is what they usually assume. I think perhaps mention of the original source could be mentioned on the pages for the sets and heads, and it would be great. As Anton said, many Sims players might become interested in Poser, which would increase revenue for all parties involved.

I don't challenge your ownership of the meshes these things came from, or the hard work and artistry it has taken to put them into Sim form, I just think more credit should be given.
I hope you are not po'ed at me for speaking up on this. I am a paranoid little Bat. :)

please, keep up the great work both here and there.. I'm a download-a-holic.:)

-Batty-

I know I personally can be bad about that and it isn't because I don't appreciate someones work or want to take credit for their meshes. Usually after an update, people will post kudos etc in the forum. At that time, if it isn't one of my originals, I usually say something like "All I really did was purchase the mesh and convert it over, but glad you like it." :D I understand how everyone feels. I get upset when people steal my sims work and recolor it. I'm very protective of my work and I want credit where it is due and I should have taken the time to do the same. Truth is that it's more just not taking the time to do it because I'm always swamped with work, than anything else. I'm going to be redoing the Egyptian section very soon anyway. I'll post a link beneath each Anton item. Teresa is adding the Egyptian textured furniture that Anton made, she's been working on it this week (btw Anton, there were some broken links on the Daz3D site for those texture enlargements). BTW Anton, how would you like it to read? Credit to you or the site?

Daz bought all my stuff when they hired me so you can mention me but link to them. I'll check the links.

Attached Link: Treasures of Egypt

I checked the links. They are fine to me.

Hi. Thanks for the replies, Anton. I am a great admirer of your work. Batty, as to the credit for the meshes, the only reason that I have left it off in the first place is because of the bastardized way in which I have to convert them. I also Truthfully, the meshes are so manipulated and so polyed-down that, were I an artist, I wouldn't want that claim. However, when I stated that anyone who resubmitted my files had to include a readme, it is because that readme contains credit to artists that I have used, particularly for that original series. I was always adamant that this remained with those files, because I knew that the links may be lost, but I could enforce that. I have never made any bones about those meshes which I convert, and those which are originals in my dialouges, or in the forums. However, that isn't enough. I have not been giving the proper credit where it is due. It wasn't to claim credit for myself; I was the first to do the process of conversion, but that is where my initial innovation left off. I want to, and need to, do more. So, I am going back to the original series and thereafter, and will have updated links and credit lines with those files that have been converted from a pre-existing geometry. I will also pass this on to a few of my meshy-convertin' cronies that are doing the same types of things. I hope that, and the knowledge that we fully support their work with our finances, satisfies those artists affected. Thanks again to all. Fionn

I just wanted folks to know that I submitted a rather lengthy list of the work available (regarding this issue) at www.simfreaks.com to my webmaster, and I invite all the mesh artists whose work I have utilized to come by in the upcoming days to note that I am making the effort to provide accurate and adequate credit. Give us a few days to get them all updated. Links will be provided for each name used, when at all available. In addition, at-large links will be provided to www.Renderosity and www.Daz3d.com. If individual artists require more,don't agree, or have any questions about the process or backwards engineering used, then please e-mail me at barbarosx@comcast.net. This has been a long time in coming, and I appreciate the patience of the community and the artists. Fionn

Attached Link: http://www.simfreaks.com

It may take a week or so. Our webmaster is part-time. Anton, check out the Egyptian Theme and see if the credit is suitable. I'm still working on the section, but you get the general idea.

Fionn and Heather, Thanks for clarifying the issue and the manner in which you're resolving it. As someone who 'found' Poser from playing The SIMs, I agree that the links and credits will help both communities. As an aside, 'Hiya' long time no see, as it were ;)... I'm not sure if you'll remember me or not, but I used to run 'Spanki's Skin Shack' website and wrote a utility (BodyWarp) for playing around with SIMs meshes. - Keith

Keith, Yeah, I remember you. In fact, I believe you had a tutorial that helped me emensly in the beginnings of my skinning. I never became much of a skinner, no patience for it. haha

Keith, I still use your final Bodwwarp edition as a final export utility, because it writes really fast .cmx files. You and Aladrin Kelahn were the pioneers, Dude. Good to hear from you. Fionn