I have just started to notice some really good modelers that were here are now gone, or you hardly ever see them anymore. Some real talent has been pushed out, or just lost in this shuffle.I feel bad about them. I asked this over in the Poser Forum, but you are modelers and I would indeed like and need your imput. Over this past week, Mike and I received 2 emails from 2 other modelers. They got together and wrote us a letter, to summarize it, they told us that because we offer so many free models that they have lost alot of money due to the fact that they sell their models. Alot of their models are similar to ours. Mike and I really took this letter to heart. With everything else happening to us this week, we wanted to stop and really examine these 2 people. Good, kind and hard working people, they addressed it kindly to us, but are indeed upset. What are your views on this? We do not want to take money away from anyone, we thought the pie was big enough...but maybe we were wrong. We are honestly trying to get some good solid answers...Please advise us. Thank you. Sharen

I guess I'm more of an artist, and not even a 3D artist. I'm more focused or written word art, although lately I'm trying to get my hands (or fingers) dirty with some visual art as well. From my point of view there is art i choose to share freely with the public and there is some art i prefer to sell and earn money from. The line between the two depends greatly about the kind of things i want to share and express as opposed to the case where I use my technical expression skills for the use and unterest of others (and expect a reward for it). The case that you describe sound to me as if someone would tell me i shouldn't publish my short stories on a free web site because they are damaging people who try to charge money for the same quality of writing. I think you expressed it right, there should be enough pie for everyone. It should be YOUR choice. If you made your models to help others and make a change in the world (help others produce better art) than you should keep them free. If they were only a technical skill, than I think you better start charging money for them :-) In any case, I think the wrong thing would be to take your models away and hide them. (but again, I'm a bit of a political artist, so i'm very sensative to any kind of censoreship or a violation of the freedom of expression :-)

I don't know if it's just the nature of the beast or not, Sharon. As advised, we started with free models to see if our historical based work was wanted. The download figures were huge so, we went ahead with some sales, not expecting anything like the numbers from the free stuff, but even a small percentage would have been great! But no! Only several purchases have happened. Maybe this is because we're not doing naked woman, or costumes, or they were just the wrong models at the wrong time or at too much money. I do know we're giving it until the end of this month to see if things pick up, if they don't, there be no more models from us, free or otherwise. Stopping free stuff may not be the answer though. Regulating it might, but I don't know how you'd do it? There are a lot of people out there who rely on free stuff because they can't afford to buy models. We want to help those people, which is why we offer free models and textures at our own site and Renderosity. It also attracts clients. But, I have to say, it would be nice to get some return. In the end it may come down to the survival of the 'strong' or the 'lucky', and as much as we're feeling the effects of that ourselves, it just may be the way it is.

I have a tiny suggestion... but first... I admire how you (Sharen & Mike) have been able to give so generously of your high quality models. I'm not a Poser artist at all, so I've never been able to benefit from any freestuff items here. I don't think that you should ever stop giving away some of your models as freebies. That is part of who you guys are as individuals, and it's not quite right to repress that part of your nature. (I still remember how you helped me with my earliest conversion problems from about 2 years ago). However, I do understand how you feel about "killing" the livelihood of other artists. When I first released some massive freebies, I was pretty much accused of doing the same thing. Although I must admit that my motivations were more to challenge the quality of the products in the marketplace. A long time ago I was very disappointed that a handful of merchants were charging exhorbitant prices for poorly crafted products. This, to me, was just not right. I haven't released many more freebies since then because the quality of stuff has jumped up, and the prices have become a lot more reasonable. Overall, anyway... Here's my suggestion... what about partnerships? On my own, I am unable to produce a dominant product that will define a marketplace genre... plus I run the risk of possibly competing with a friend. I simply go into a joint venture where my partner (or partners) brings in added value that increases the total worth of the product. Instead of simply giving something away, and derail other merchants... collaborate and produce a more inexpensive product with twice the quality possible, in half the production time. I am currently working with about five different teams in various stages of completion. Some are pure conversions, others are a mix of props, others take existing models and progressively build them up to more Poser ready products. It has always been my underlying belief that a "community" should be inclusive and serve as a building block for better relationships, and not exclusive... where we have to miss those who have moved on. Just my two cents. Please don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to pontificate from any higher ground... I'm too short to attempt that sort of thing, it's only a suggestion. :o) Cheers! M

There's something I meant to add and Moe just reminded me. It's great to keep the price down, and WE know we have to, even if it kills us. There are some who are trying to do this as a living, which means they can't keep their prices as low as they'd like. There are also a few, like us, who are UK based. If, say, we charged $5 for an item we only get $3 IF we make it Renderosity exclusive. Convert that to 's and it goes down around 2 per item. Hardly worth it really. We're relatively new to all this and I'd love to hear what the likes of Andix of 3D Modelz has to say on this subject.

I hear ya, virtuallyhistorical... I'm based in Thailand, which is a country that does not yet support Paypal. If I decide to sell a product for US$5.00 in partnership with another merchant... that means I will only get US$1.25 from each sale... before I even get my money processed. In order for Renderosity to cut a check, their bank charges them something like US$50.00 to enable them to send me my share of the sale. Once the cheque arrives here, there is a waiting period and a bank fee on my end for them to process the cheque, another US$15.00. It's laughable considering that I need to sell a US$5.00 partnered product 53 times before I can actually make any money. What can I say? Those are the breaks of the game. And you think you got problems in the UK? :oP LOL! Cheers! M

My heart goes out to you! Mak

Hi Mak, As I'm sure you're aware, we're also in the UK.. Now, we use Paypal for payments from sites that we sell brokered products on, which at present is payment in US $ from all of them, including our own on-site store. However, after much chasing of NatWest, we're finally getting a Streamline account, and more importantly, a SecPay merchant account. This will then allow us to charge customers in Dollars, Pounds or Euros, the choice will be theirs. OK, we have kept our prices roughly the same since we started, although we've made some modifications, as we've learnt our way along. Generally, the price is the same, so what we've tried to do, is increase the worth of the product.....either in the detailing or the versatility. very few of our products are exclusive anywhere, so the base line commission applies to all. Further, we pretty much have a permenant sale on, of varying degrees discount. so for a $10 pack, such as WorldZ, the current R'osity price is $7.50, of which we get $3.75. Fair enough, little amounts....but....we're working on the Woolworths Principle....which is a low price, shifting lots of individual units. This works for us. But, yet again, the Marketplace is an evolving creature, and standards change....what was awesome 3 years ago, might look a bit faded by now, so you have to evolve with it....stagnating, and resting on former laurels just will not keep you there in this increasingly competative market. Ideally, you need to stay an occassional step ahead, or do something truly spectacular. We also have the added bonus of there being three of us involved at 3dmodelz, and all three of us just love doing 3d. So we've never any shortage of new stuff......in fact theres a reasonable sized update going to our on site free section this weekend. But to Sharen (Sams3d), i repeat, we don't think you should be feeling bad, thats just the nature of this beast.....nothing is constant, except change. best wishes Andi 3dmodelz

On the original subject, you wouldn't believe some of the sanctimonious and self-righteous drivel we've had to listen to at times.....

Just mention your name and you appear! Thanks Andi. Mak

I have to salute Wings 3d, Anim8tor, and Doga L1, which have brought bad modelling to the reach of millions..;) Well, it's a good place to start. I think that really good modelling will attract paying customers..it's just that for now, anyone can make models, so there's more pressure, but you guys will come out on top in the end.

But you sell some stuff as well don't you? For you the freestuff serves two purposes, first to give something bck to the community - though I have to say I think you're way in credit on that one. Second it acts as a shop window for your other stuff. You might just as well argue that you are damaging your own sales! Honestly, without wanting to sound callous, I think you should do what you do and let other folk make their own choices. All artistic endeavour, when it strives to be commercial, hits the simple problem that there are probably more 'artists' than there are customers for them. It's hideous, but that's the world we all live in. Someone elses success or failure is not your responsibility. For all you know, their 'failure' or struggle has nothing to do with your freestuff, but more to do with their marketing/ choice of product/ pricing/ sheer dumb luck/ fashion/ and who knows what else! I wish I knew how produce what other people want to pay for, I really do - er- except that I'd end up producing stuff that I hated - so maybe I don't after all.... The point is, you don't need our advice - you've done a great job, given incredibly generously, and are rightfully admired and respected. You do what's right for you, and whatever you do, judging on past performance, will probably be right. regards peejay

Well said peejay! Mak

Ironic how the answer to your free historical models conundrum can be found by diving into some historical US court cases :P (okay, so different eras completely, just work with me here). I can't recall the case name, or the naems of the parties involved, but here's a summary. The gov't of some state (New York?) gave a permit to a bridge company to build a toll bridge over a particular river. A few years later, the gov't contracted another company to build a bridge about 100 feet down. This bridge was not a toll bridge, however, but completely free. Now, obviously, Company A was pissed that Company B was building a free bridge, so no one in their right mind would use their own toll bridge. They took it to the supreme court, trying to close Bridge B. The supreme court, however, decided that competition benefits EVERYONE, and that the individual greeds and wealths of company A only benefited company A. And there in lies your answer. If the competition's product isn't good enought to warrant paying for, or their marketing strategy is unprofitable, then they will flounder. That's competition. That's capitalism. Love it or hate it, immoral or not, that's how it works. My 2 cents, don't spend them all in one place.