i ran this idea by Moe a loooooong time ago and i've forgotten about it until i read the "welcome mod" thread. it'll be awesome if we can have a modelling challenge for all the different progs that we used, Wings Vs LW Vs Rhino Vs wateva else progs there are out there... what say you my fellow members?

I was hoping you'd forgotten all about that idea, Phlegm_Thrower... LOL! (major migrane the size of Mt. Kilimanjaro starts setting in) The idea is awesome, but unless we can agree on how we evaluate challenge entries... we're in for a lot of confusion. For example... do we allow renders or, since this is a modeling challenge, do we stop at wireframes? How do we keep it simple and fun? We need to focus on the mesh building part of things and the resulting object, without dwelling too much on the application. I'm game... but I will yield to the superior wisdom of Master Teyon. :oP Cheers! M

Why not have everybody create the same object. Then evaluate the quality & complexity of the mesh, contour lines, edge loops, ect... Are there enough polys to do the trick? Are there more polys than necessary? That type of thing. All you would need to do is come up with a common thing that everyone knows what it looks like, so the models would all be close to the same looking. Then it would be easier to grade the mesh. Sort of like what Moe did with the spoon.

Ooooo, yes the same object, although we don't do organic, but if it isn't organic I am in. Sharen

yeah i agree with Electric... model a specific object but allows for elaboration... after all, modelling also depends on the modeller as well as the prog to make it look cool... the point of this modelling challenge is NOT TO SHOWCASE THE POWER of each program. it's basically the same as program specific challenge where u try to make the best model based on your skill except this will allow more people to participate. about the polycounts, im gonna have to disagree since im using RHINO, a NURBS modeller... so basically choose a theme, and model it as best as u can... i might suggest wireframe and untextured greyscale for the final render... that way u can't really hide any defects on the model with textures. if we can get more inputs from people here on how to proceed with the challenge, it will greatly help sort out all the details...

Hmmm...I still don't think the place is ready for that just yet, we're still trying to decide what all to include here. Having a challenge would kind of force us to have a backroom so we could keep a log/gallery of the winners but so far, that's all that would be in there. I'm more concerned with getting this place together content wise and then, once we're a little settled, we could see how a challenge would fit. However, if enough people want it, I'm up for running it. Poly counts would be meaningless to folks who use A:M or NURBs based programs like Rhino. We'd have to have a way to judge the effectivness of each based on the form of modeling if we concern ourselves with counts. I'm no expert in splines or metaballs, so I'd feel weird about that. So, I think counts are out. Assuming we'd actually be ready for this: I could see a bi-weekly theme for making day to day objects with the occassional big object/character given a window of a month to complete. We would want everyone to start from the same general design/idea and then let them go from there, perhaps with a brief explanation of the steps used and why they took the design in the direction they did. The entries would have to be wireframe and well lit greyscale renderings only, I think. That way, nobody gets distracted by snazzy colors rendered in the latest GI program with all the filters you could shake a stick at. There wouldn't be a "winner" but instead a "best-of=show" with a runner up and honarable mention. We'd have to break the challenge into skill levels also, based on how well a member feels they know their program. Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced would probably be the easiest and clearest breakdown. NO PRIZES SHOULD BE AWARDED BESIDES HAVING YOUR WORK SHOWCASED HERE UNTIL THE NEXT "BEST OF" IS ANNOUNCED. I don't think I'll budge on that. Prizes, at first, seem like a good idea but can lead into problems later. Maybe we could give a prize at the end of the year...sort of a "Best of the Best". In that idea, During the month of December, we'd collect all the "best of" from the year and ask the members to decide which model stnads out above the rest and the image chosen gets a prize. It'll place a higher value on prizes should we decide to use them. Well, that's what I have so far. Again, I'd rather concentrate on what we think the day to day content of this place should be but I'm willing to jump in head first if you all want to start challenges now.

Believe one good reason for a challenge would be to show us why we might want to learn another program and which one(s). Have a little hard fought skill with nurbs and Rhino, and know with that program anything can be modeled, but believe that organics might be more appropiate for a poly modeler, but is that actually true.
And for mechanical modeling, that Rhino does with ease, might be a software others might want to add to their toolset, but don't know it yet...
The theme of a bio - mechanical creature that is currently going on in the Rhino forum has been very helpful to me to "have to" work on both aspects... Such a theme for a multi-apps challenge would be interesting here i believe.

Agree wire/flat shaded is good, but one of the reasons for other softwares/combos... is render quality. Have been impressed with what i have seen of C4D, but lightwave and max i have also seen good results....
Having two postings. One rendered, one flat shaded, and a little writeup would be helpfull to compare.

WIP's along the way, which is something i am noticing that is starting to go by the wayside in the Rhino forum, would also be very helpful, to see how a project evolves...

For the fun of the doing, and to learn, more then "true" competition, is what i hope this is able to remain at, once started.... so agree prizes should be out.

some thoughts, hewsan

I think the idea has merit - kind of similar to what I was suggesting (except I went off track). Agree the accent should not be on the prize side of the challenge (mostly 'cos I'd never win and that would cheese me off no end), but on the learning from each other and sharing aspect. Also, speaking personally, the keep it simple (and relatively fast) aspect is appealing, I have way more things to do than time to do them already, but I'd love to see this forum really humming - there's so much we can learn from each other. my tuppence worth peejay

Im game as long as we can use any app. I use Rhino, Zbrush and Blender. Now Zbrush is my app of choice for organics and Rhino for the rest.

okay...been reading this, and, it is plain that folks want a challenge. now, since this is the modelling forum...how about part of the challenge being based on what tools in your APP of choice, and, how you used them? i know that i am not the only one who sunk money into more than one app....keeps me out of the marketplace, doncha know....'cause i'm gonna live off the land, make all my own stuff and hit the poser hot 20 every time i post to that gallery...and, i won't use any marketplace objects, 'cause i am a purist. (actually, i am a purist...making the 20 every time was just a delusion...discount it and read on.) these programs, all, have their strengths and weaknesses. so tell us how you did the challenge, what tools you used, how you think your app did what you wanted. how you could have gotten more if your app could.....blank? i like this forum because it opens our eyes up to the fact that one modeller, no matter how expensive, or impressive..still is just a tool. and, to combine it with other tools that do similar, but, other things can be a sweet thing. oh, and, yes, i mostly like organics...so, if it is building a space port, i am not gonna play.

I'll echo poppis organic comment. Gotta be organic...or at least bio-mecha.

Just sticking my oar in :o) I've got to disagree about the challenge being organic, that's my preference too but it should have variety. Partly to make it fair (everyone gets a crack at their favorite type of modelling) and also because tackling something unfamiliar is going to teach you more than making the same type of thing that you're used to modelling. :o) - Baz

Here's what I gather so far...- We should definitely have a regular modeling challenge in the Forum, and by "challenge" we mean that no prizes are involved except for a bit of recognition from your peers.

• Challenges should not be application specific and the subject matter, theme or topic selected should lend itself well to any sort of modeling application.
• Since it is a modeling forum challenge, wireframes are the obligatory output as a valid entry, although final renders are also welcome.
• Work-in-Progress images are a definite part of the challenge since the most important part of these challenges is to learn from each other.
• The challenge winner is decided on by a show of hands by the forum members. The winner goes on to suggest a topic for the next challenge... although it might need to be agreed upon by everyone first.

There are a couple of undecided bits, which I would like us to tackle first...- Do we divided the challenge into newbie/beginner and intermediate/advanced categories?

• Do we always make it a point to choose topics that are at once both organic and mechanic? Or do we offer one style of challenge over the other alternatively? Or do we offer two distinct challenges in cases where we are unable to offer a combined topic?
• Do we agree on having these challenges every month?
• Can we agree to limit the size of images posted (both WIP's and entries) to a maximum width of 800 pixels?
• Can we agree to some basic forum ettiquette that does not allow for hijacking threads started by other members?
• Can we agree on abiding by Teyon's choice for what our first challenge will be... and when he thinks we are ready to start?

I know we have to start somewhere... but both Teyon and I would like to get all the mechanics of this Forum set up properly before we start doing stuff. This may have been around for a fairly long time, but it's new to us... so we need to get a comfortable sense of the Forum's pulse first. Give us a bit of time. :o) Thanks for your input. Cheers! M

When I was a kid in school, there were three different Art type classes:

Standard Art - Where you made everything from pottery to paintings (Organics)

Graphic Arts - which has since been supplanted by the computer.

And Drafting.

Rhino has more than it's fair share of people who do little else than Organics, and it seems the Organic folks always win out for the challenges. Yes a blend of Bio Mechanical is a way around this, and I will agree that I have learned allot from just trying to do a Organic for a challenge.

To be quite frank, many of the Rhino users really suck at Organics and that is why we work on our independent projects like cars and planes.

Granted no single forum is about the wishes of just one single person, but honestly, if a person does not feel comfortable doing something, they usually hold no interest in it.

Sports? I sucked, always the last kid in phys-ed to be chosen for team sports. To this day, I avoid Sports programs on TV. I just hate them (unless they are shooting something with a gun or arrows, preferably balls; or driving something that doesn't need to be hit to make it work).

What I think would be the best challenge, and it may be harder to start but I personally believe it would make this the biggest of the forums, would be to divide the challenge into two forms, one Organic, one Mechanical (or what ever you want to call something that doesn't grow and is made by man).

With three levels - Masters, Advanced, and Beginners; The Masters could be required to do combine the Mechanical and the Organic models. For instance: A table, Table Cloth, and bowl of fruit are both mechanical and organic, right?

FOr what it's worth, thats what I think. Oh, and also, remember, there are those who use AutoCAD - (which I don't understand why there isn't a forum for and why Renderosity doesn't sell it) But AutoCAD users should be allowed in on this one I think.

I'd agree to everything you said Moe except for the sake of making the organisation a litle easier why not alternate organic and inorganic. If someone doesn't feel they can tackle every subject is that so bad? I know I won't have time to attempt every one, and as I said before tackling a model that you find difficult is a great way to learn and let's face it, most of us aren't expecting to win but to learn and enjoy right? I suppose a beginners section for total newbies is only fair with the mods deciding who can enter that category. I don't think there's any need for different categories for advanced and expert.. And of course AutoCAD users should be allowed, modelling app should be irrelevent. - Baz

I look forward to seeing if this will work. (the use any app thing) Some apps don't lend themselves to doing organics and some don't do mechanical things as well. It will be interesting to see how they are tackled by different apps. On the voting thing. A while back there was a voting fiasco in one of the other forums. After it happened I didn't want to be a part of that group. Sorry its just me. I do this for relaxation and don't want to deal with squabbling. Maybe to vote you should have an entry or something like that. Or leave it up to the mods. I don't know.

I'm gonna dip my toe into this, I agree on having a challenge .. when this place is up and going as Teyon mentioned. Perhaps the challenge could be on a question posted here, like "how would I go about doing this ?" and then have answera and then a follow-up challenge on it. another thing about the challenge ..NO POST WORK or maybe even NO RENDERING..just plain jane gray scale .. and after all this is a modeling challenge NOT rendering challenge. Afterwards we could take the model, render it and go to the challenge arena and post them there and maybe draw some more peeps over here. ** soaking wet now - meant to dip in a toe and fell head first into it **

it's not that i actually dislike doing inorganics...they are fine, as long as they are a building or furniture or something. what i have trouble with is some of the elaborate space thingamabobs that alot of folks enjoy doing. it just seems i have no imagination for space stuff. (remember, i actually won a challenge in the rhino forum for the "ice transporter"?) what i'd love to do is get my feet a little more wet in lightwave on this challenge. i know i have learned alot from the rhino challenges.

With a little ingenuity and creative thought... not to many topics can't be tackled as either organic or strictly mechanical by the creator... Adding aspects of both, or what you are comfortable with is, actually is part of the "challenge" in the intital design process.......
Leaving the challenge themes a little open to interpretation could well lead to interesting concepts and that is part of the fun i think....
I work at 1280x960 and for the forum or gallery usually make the image at 1000 pixels wide that fits well most browsers at 1024x756... Wonder what most people here work at. Size of the finished piece is OK at 800 pixels but to see more detail, a 1000 pixels would be nice perhaps.
Two divisions (or three if we have enough participants) so no one feels to discouraged.... though hope people compete against themself, and can use as inspiration other's works... think would be good.

Sounds like a cool idea. The spoon thing was neat. For posting to the forum I recommend 800px or less for the image width for readability issues concerning sideways scrolling. (If you want it wider post in gallery.) So, when will it start?

Cool idea..I am in!

lol im not in coz i can make is a ball but would love to look

Moe & Teyon - have you looked at what audity has done in the C4D forum. We have monthly challenges there, the winner gets to pick the next topic, and has to post a mini-tutorial on how they created their model/scene. You can look at the challenges section to see what has been done ove the past 5 months. We also have a (whats appears to be quarterly) major challenge. Right now it's a "Toy Story" theme. There are prizes for this contest, and the donators of the prizes are the judges. The idea of a challenge here sounds great, but you shouldn't be able to post final textured renders. Some apps such as C4D, LW, and MAX via Brazil, can produce some very spectactular output. Apps like Wings, Amapi, Carrera, just can't do that. Default grey or wireframe renders should be the only thing allowed. This would showcase the model more than the output ability of the app. Also the challenge themes should cover the spectrum, organic, mechanical, mixed, architechural, and what ever else comes to mind. Well these aare my thoughts... (steps down off the soap box and passes it to the next person) Spaz.....

Spaz, Can't do it? Sure they can - in the right hands. Wireframes as the final output? I think it might be a good idea to make a wireframe obligatory, and perhaps show a wip or two but shouldn't we actually vote on the final rendered image? I mean isn't that, beyond the learning aspect, the point? - TJ

Let's keep this discussion open. :o) Looks like we are all coming closer to a consensus. I tend to agree with SPZ-Desdinova (where the heck have you been, chief?) regarding wireframes as the appropriate submissions for a modeling challenge. As an artists' community, in my opinion, we should try to be as inclusive as possible and get as many folks involved here, rather than exclusive where we might end up with only a few entrants. I definitely see your point on pushing the learning envelope, bikermouse. I don't think that there is a problem with posting a final render of the mesh here as well as the obligatory wireframe. Any other thoughts? Cheers! M

I agree Moe (as I posted earlier) .. no rendering and certainly no post work, afterall this IS modeling. Just wire frames sounds ummmm .. ok ... hows about a grayscale inset of the final product, but then again that could lead to who can better set up lighting and such ... hummm maybe just wireframe is the way to go. bob either way I'm easy ... just not cheap. LOL

I'm cheap but not easy. I agree that post work would not be appropriate in my opinion. Texturing? in a wireframe you wouldn't see it, but it might be nice to see. It seems that we should start with a simple framework of rules (as prevoisly listed by Moebius87) and evolve the process as we go along. I think that as time goes on we may wish to modify the rules by consensus but it seems we have a starting point at least. -TJ