This may sound like a bizarre idea (or maybe not--I've seen some odd things here before), but I was just thinking the other day that there have been an occasion or two where I have copied an image from one of the galleries and played around with it in photoshop putting my own twist to it. Of course this was for my own use just as a way to play with some post work-- I never posted (or intended to post) such things as my own. Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has done this before, but I thought that perhaps this could make for some sort of contest where someone creates an image and allows others to modify that image and we get to see what people can do with what someone else has started. I'm not looking for the actual file (like the Poser file), just a rendered image that folks could have a go of...oh well, enough rambling. I was also thinking about posting this message in some other forums -- good idea? Don't do it?

Actually, a while back I remember somthing like that, I can't remember who did it though. but it worked before (got lot of response) Tony

A Challenge with everyone's permission may be fun. However, taking other people's images and "playing" with it is not ok...People seem to think it's ok to take other's work "as long as you don't post it anywhere". But it's still stealing, just with a reduced chance of getting caught....

If you want to get into a legit contest for Postwork, check out Runtime DNA. They run contests and challenges often and have had actual "Postwork" challenges, where Traveler provided an image just for this purpose. I don't know what they're running right now, but this is the place to check.

Actually about a week ago(I can't find the thread),someone posted a link to DL a nude,baldheaded Steph image to see what people could do with it (postwork wise). Don't know how it turned out,but if it's better organized,I think it's a great idea. SWAMP

Luciferno did some totally awesome "teamwork" art. 1 person would do the render and someone else would do the post, then they did another image and switched roles. Some amazing art was created. I wanted to participate but got tied up with corporate wok and couldn't play. check out her gallery.

Dizzie..I don't think there's anything wrong with someone taking an image and doing anything they want with it, as long as it never leaves their machine. It's not even illegal. Display and/or distribution of it to others would be.

Post your modified version of the following pic to this thread and on August 1st, I'll judge the winner and do a texture for a clothing item of their choice or perhaps an item from the winner's wish list.

Since when is taking something that belongs to someone else, without their permission, not illegal? Not to mention imoral....

Don't know about anyone else, but if someone took something from me without my permission, Id be severly angry and would have the rights to sue or have that person arrested. Its the same thing as saying if a burgler comes to your house, and takes 'whatever'..say a lamp...is he wrong, and did he actually steal it, if he doesn't intend to redistribute it or sell it..but just use it in his own living room? Uh-uh, dont take images that you have no business taking without permission from that artist..no matter WHAT you intend to do with it. Its stealing no matter how you slice it, and its copyright infringment.

Not really. If I see one of your pics and decide to right click on it and use it as my desk top wallpaper... Would you SERIOUSLY call that stealing? How would you ever even KNOW? It's not like I'm redistributing it in any form (I agree that would be illegal) but if you don't even want people to save your images and look at them in joy, then you shouldn't publish them online IMO. But it's an age old discussion. And different people have different views on it. Personally I dream of the day where my pictures reach a quality where they're WORTH stealing ;o)

How do you really compare a real world object with a digital one??

I'll say right now that I'm not all that familiar with digital copyright laws & specific issues.

It seems to me that saving a digital image for your own use w/o future public display or attempted profit is no different than if you receive a magazine and cut out the pictures (or articles) for your own use - whether it's just to save because you find it nice to look at (or read) or because you want to use it for some personal project (decoupage, homework display, scrapbooking, etc). I'd sure like to see that being labelled as stealing, have a copyright lawyer come and sue the pants off of whatever student is just trying to get an 'A' on a project or the mother creating a memories album for her children and see how that flies in the face of common sense....

And on that vein - I've jaunted over to the Paint Shop Pro forum every so often and it seems that one of the challenges/projects they have on an ongoing basis is an image that others are invited to save and modify w/their PSP program and repost it. It allows people to show off and share their visions, ideas, and post work skills.

But Dizzie, by putting it on the internet you HAVE given permission for the picture to be downloaded to the person's computer. Otherwise they couldn't see it. Nobody has taken it without permission. What they do with it on their own machine is their own business and no violation occurs unless they put it out for display/redistribution. Whether we like it or not doesn't matter.

It seems to me that saving a digital image for your own use w/o future public display or attempted profit is no different than if you receive a magazine and cut out the pictures (or articles) for your own use But images in a magazine are 'sold' to the magazine for publishing purposes..the publisher and artist sign a contract and the artist gets a roylty payment for that image..everytime it is displayed in the publishers magazine and that magazine is sold. I've jaunted over to the Paint Shop Pro forum every so often and it seems that one of the challenges/projects they have on an ongoing basis is an image that others are invited to save and modify w/their PSP program and repost it. If a person posts an image and TELLS everyone that they can edit it and do what they want with it,..that is permission given. That is different from a user just going wherever on the net and getting what they like, and editing it.. Several artists make their living doing nothing but selling 'digital artwork'.. its a 'real world' trade these days..nobody in his right mind would take an image like MichaelAngelo's and change it and actually not get into some serious trouble over it..Alot of artists feel just as strongly over their own artwork as some of the more famous ones... As for 'how would I know if my artwork was being taken?' snicker "Vee have vays" ;) Spit: Just because its online does NOT mean the artist has given permission to take it. If someone here on 'Rosity sells textures, mats, maps, and an image is used to advertise it, you cannot legaly click and save it, and use it to make something of your own with it... If an item/or image is 'for sale' then its not free. The artists DO NOT 'have' to say you cannot take it..Just because they DON'T doesn't mean you can have it. Im in the process of working with a publisher, and believe you me, there are contracts/agreements that HAVE to be signed between the parties involved.. Besides that..everyone knows what all {or most} mothers teach their children.."Don't take anything that doesn't belong to you."

I agree....thus I have no problem with you taking the above picture and reworking it....but if you took something from my gallery without my permission and reworked it I would be fairly upset. It happens with alarming frequency I know(if I had ten cents for each time somebody had lifted my red haired elf, I'd be a rich woman. Just because you aren't likely to get caught doesn't make it right. I think you'll find that many will give their permission if you only ask.

"If I see one of your pics and decide to right click on it and use it as my desk top wallpaper... Would you SERIOUSLY call that stealing?" not a chance in hell- I've had lots of ppl tell me that they are useing my images as there desktop- too me it's the highest form of flattery.

Ah, yes... Photoshop contests. See them all the time, actually. Go to fark.com, they have four of them a day. Be warned, not for the faint of heart, or faint of butt. ^__^; ~DM

Attached Link: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

I recently became aware that some employees of a well-known computer company distribute some of my images among themselves to use as desktop backgrounds at work. I know two of these folks, and have no problem with this useage. It came as a big surprise to hear about this, but I took it as humbling flattery, and now sometimes send images directly to them at work. Not the nudes, LOL. On the other hand, just last week, I posted an image here and to the Poser newsgroup that was intended in a serious and heartfelt context. Someone from another binaries group took the image and reposted it to their group along with their own alteration of it. By the time I'd learned of this, someone else had posted yet another alteration. This was the first time this had happened to me. I was hurt and offended, mostly because of the serious context of the original image. In my protest response, I mentioned copyright, and was met with the common (and wrong) justification that because I'd failed to make a copyright symbol obvious, I'd sacrificed any legal claim to the image. Permission really is the key, isn't it? For just about any other image, I probably would have said "go ahead!" if I'd been asked in advance. Anyway, we worked out our differences and I do trust these folks not to do it again in lieu of permission. I'd love to show you guys the "before and after" versions but doing that would violate the point I was trying to make about reposting images without permission. (In spite of my offense they did a really good job.) Suffice to say that someone superimposed a giant cockroach on my image of an angel, and while the modifier intended humor, their intent backfired. Good thing I'm not the hotheaded litigious type. :-) The attached link was originally provided by cooler in another thread. It's worth a look. Hey Lunaseas, I love your idea! That was cool of you to offer. I'm no post-render expert but will give it a go. :-)

jumpstart - I'm sure you will become aware that there is more than one type of agreement for an artist to have with a magazine (or any other legitimate periodical/website). Yes, there is a signed contract or agreement that allows the magazine to print the content - the short and skinny of it breaks down to a limited license. The COPYRIGHT still remains with the originator and anything outside the bounds of the contract is in violation of it.

Am I saying saving an image from the internet and mussing with it for personal use is right? I have no problem with it - with doing it or having it done to me - because there are so many other much worse things to worry about in life. I understand that other people are not going to agree - thus you read my comparison and I stand by them. Do I think it would be kosher to contact the original artist? Yes, of course - it all has to do with manners. Do I think we need to bring the wrath of God (or whom/whatever) upon them for not doing so? No - unless they post/sell/claim it w/o permission or proper credits.

It is idealistic and naive for us to think that image grabbing is not going to happen. There are sets of circumstances (i.e. - blatant law-breaking and inconsideration) when it is called for that a person or group be made accountable for their actions. I don't think that in djthomas' example that such a thing is required - my opinion only. As we can see, there are others who do not feel the same and now that they've made their feelings known, it is up to djthomas and those others who read this thread whether or not they'll change their way of thinking and how they do things.

I recently became aware that some employees of a well-known computer company distribute some of my images among themselves to use as desktop backgrounds at work. I know two of these folks, and have no problem with this useage. It came as a big surprise to hear about this, but I took it as humbling flattery, and now sometimes send images directly to them at work. Not the nudes, LOL. On the other hand, just last week, I posted an image here and to the Poser newsgroup that was intended in a serious and heartfelt context. Someone from another binaries group took the image and reposted it to their group along with their own alteration of it. By the time I'd learned of this, someone else had posted yet another alteration. This was the first time this had happened to me. I was hurt and offended, mostly because of the serious context of the original image. In my protest response, I mentioned copyright, and was met with the common (and wrong) justification that because I'd failed to make a copyright symbol obvious, I'd sacrificed any legal claim to the image. Permission really is the key, isn't it? For just about any other image, I probably would have said "go ahead!" if I'd been asked in advance Excellent point. There are those artists that do not mind their images being used by others..with or without permission, and then there are 'certain' images by that same artist that he/she would rather be asked if it was ok to obtain the image.. Lucy and Geo: I think its great that you dont mind your images to be used for whatever pupose by others..but what if you sold those images for your very livelyhood?.. {some artists do} Would you still not mind someone coming along and taking your paycheck? I also understand publishing contracts in that there is a limited amount of time set forth in the said contract. After that time limit is reached, the contract is either renewed, or that publisher is not allowed to use that artists images. As for copyright, there is no time limit. Also, artists are not 'required' to post copyright warnings with their images, nor any other form of ownership of said image. I still say the best way of staying out of trouble in this instance, is to ask first before assuming an image is free, but to each his/her own. :)

"Lucy and Geo: I think its great that you dont mind your images to be used for whatever pupose by others..but what if you sold those images for your very livelyhood?.. {some artists do} Would you still not mind someone coming along and taking your paycheck?" Not likely that I'll ever make money doing this- so if ppl see and keep what I do post here thats good- maby it will last longer then I do :) allways a good thing for an artist. To be remembered! :) and I never said about posting modified images to other places and taking credit- but for there own personal use- like desktops. Your making quite a jump.

jumpstart - did you read what I said?? Was is not clear that I said law-breaking constituted appropriate action against the offender?? If an image is for sale, then THOSE circumstances would call for the person to get a royal reaming indeed. Do you also recall what djthomas said - that the image(s) he used were from the gallery - as in images that do not have a monetary value placed upon them?? My responses were based on his scenario and were expanded on only minimally. And I do know that a copyright warning, tagging, or marking of an image (or anything) is not needed for a copyright to be in effect. :) All I've really expressed is my opinions: I don't feel it's a violation of copyright to do it (because if I did, I wouldn't); I don't mind/care if it's done to me (if it needs to said be spelled out, I'm referring to the freely accessed images in my gallery); and I don't think that djthomas has done anything wrong.

forgot to add- that my war time pinups were mailed to hundreds of the boys over in iraq. ppl were taking them to school- this is all very cool. when some historian writes a book about the war- just another way to be remembered. more then most "pro" artist can say.

Until I get a Wacom, the lady stays bald. :-)

Excellent point. There are those artists that do not mind their images being used by others..with or without permission, and then there are 'certain' images by that same artist that he/she would rather be asked if it was ok to obtain the image.. Maybe I should've put this phrase**"Lucy and Geo: I think its great that you dont mind your images to be used for whatever pupose by others..but what if you sold those images for your very livelyhood?.. {some artists do} Would you still not mind someone coming along and taking your paycheck?"** in below the other one..I need to work on my context a bit I suppose...I was not refering ALL of my post above to monetary value, nor was it all aimed at any one person..As for Dj, I only posted what I know as an effort to keep them out of possible troubles... Opinions differ here, but I wouldn't advise anyone to openly admit to taking other artists images given the problems we have had on this site about 'snaggers' using others works..{if any of you remember that topic..it was about a Yahoo group using artists artworks for Incredimail stationary, and 'snagging' works from here at 'Rosity}

But I still think you're missing the point: PERSONAL use. It's not the same to use a pretty picture as a desktop wallpaper and to send it to others, print it, use it in IncrediMail or other of the mentioned cases. The analogy with a scrapbook is pretty close IMO. Sure other people can SEE my desktop but they're not GETTING the image. And people selling art for a living... I SURE hope they SELL it in better versions than a little, artifacted jpg. It's just not the same. Like a poster of a painting. It's pretty but it sure isn't the painting itself.

Im not missing any points..I see where others are coming from.. What Im saying is that its not ANYONES right to blatenly take anothers artwork for themselves without asking permission just because they like it, and want it for themselves for desktop or otherwise. Just because its a 'copy' of something doesnt make it any more right..If an artist {any artist} tells everyone to "take this image and see what you can do with it"..then by all means, take it..create something new and wonderful. But if an artist doesn't say that to you, then dont assume that it is free for the taking..just because SOME artists dont mind, doesn't mean ALL dont mind... Alot of artists put their images up for all to see, to show their talents, and possibly get recognised by someone who is looking to hire someone with those qualities..not all, but alot. Some people have no other option than to put it on the net, and altho they know there are people out there who prefer to take than create..they do so in hopes of 'some sort' of recognition...They dont put out there to be ripped. {again, some do, but not all} I have images that I wouldn't mind sharing, if I was asked, and then I have images that are strictly for sale, and I will not share. I create to express myself, and earn extra income..others have different reasons for doing their artwork. What I find disturbing is that there are actually people who do not care if images belong to another artist, and take it on the basis of "If its on the net, then its free" Or "If you dont want your images taken, dont put them online" Whats so very wrong with asking permission for ANY artists images? Is it laziness? Fear of being told 'No'?, No talent?, {which is a load of bull IMO, everyone has SOME kind of talent}

You're still missing the point by use of phrases such as 'blatantly take', 'for themselves', 'some sort of recognition'. 'Recognition' implies showing/distributing to others which is NOT what's being talked about and is, in fact, illegal. In fact you have no right to tell anyone what they can do on their own machines for themselves in private. Noone is saying it's okay to redistribute your work. What harm is done to you? I can pull any image from the gallery out of my cache and put a mustache on Vicky. As long as it stays on my harddrive I have a perfect right to do so.

but I was just thinking the other day that there have been an occasion or two where I have copied an image from one of the galleries and played around with it in photoshop putting my own twist to it. Maybe you missed this part of the post...but it sure sounds like someone 'took' an image from the galleries 'for himself/herself'{pretty blatent if ya ask me, or even if ya dont ask me}...and changed it..I see no mention of asking the artist {who's work was 'taken'} if he/she minded... Of course this was for my own use just as a way to play with some post work-- I never posted (or intended to post) such things as my own This line tells me that {at that time} he/she had no 'intention' to post anything that became of said changes.. this also implies that they knew they had no rights to the images...hence not posting it.. Anyway, I don't know if anyone else has done this before, but I thought that perhaps this could make for some sort of contest where someone creates an image and allows others to modify that image and we get to see what people can do with what someone else has started This phrase brings up the other points I {and others} tried to make, about using another artists beginning creations, and see what others could make out of it..suggesting a 'permission given to alter' image. One that CAN be redistributed for all to see. But Dizzie, by putting it on the internet you HAVE given permission for the picture to be downloaded to the person's computer Wrong! Whether you sell that image or not, or use it for your own viewing pleasure, or post it for others to see, it STILL belongs to the artist who created it, and YOU OR ANYONE ELSE have no rights to it unless that artist says you can do such things with his/her artwork. I could care less if you believe me or not, look up the digital copyright laws. In fact you have no right to tell anyone what they can do on their own machines for themselves in private In fact, any artist that discovers his/her artwork was taken without permission,{and finds out who took it} can in fact file suit against the offender. What one does with their own creations is indeed their business alone. * Noone is saying it's okay to redistribute your work.* There were points being made to show a given view/opinions..its one of those things that come up. I can pull any image from the gallery out of my cache If you got those images from this site, without permission from the artist, then you are also in the wrong...even if you never post it. Why does anyone think there is software out there designed to try and 'disable' right-clicking, and so on...those means to which people try and take images off the net...? Just something someone came up with because they were bored? Give me a break! Ask the Admins here if taking images off this site, and out of the galleries is 'ok', or if they will tell you to 'be safe rather than sorry, and ask the artist' There were legitiment reasons for creating software to prevent this..it was created to prevent image theft. You use Poser for instance..the creators of Poser give you permission to create new and wonderful things with their software, and even sell things you make with it..they do not however give you permission to sell their design as your own, or claim it in any way...same applies to images you find here and elsewhere...you have to have permission to copy and use these images for yourself...whether it is reposted, redistributed, sold, or kept to ones self... Just because a person can figure out a way to copy an image, doesnt make it right..'out of sight, out of mind' or "if I dont get caught, then its ok" doesnt apply here.. Apparently Im getting way, way, misunderstood here..Im not attacking anyone here, Im just trying to make my opinion known as far as image theft goes..I apologise if I came across as attacking anyone..I really mean no harm..but as Xoconostle said, it hurts and offends when something is important to you, and it is just 'taken'...Ive been there..and I will fight against it no matter what.

You're not being misunderstood in the slightest. You just seem incapable of seeing the difference between what someone does in the privacy of their own home and image theft. There is nothing in the copyright laws that prevents me from drawing a mustache on anyone's Vicky and sitting there laughing my a** off over it in the privacy of my own pc and I don't need anyone's permission to do so. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it illegal. And by pointing this out I am in no way, shape, or form, advocating image theft.

You just seem incapable of seeing the difference between what someone does in the privacy of their own home and image theft. If your sitting there in 'your own home' taking images off the net without permission..THAT IS IMAGE THEFT! WHAT, to 'you' would constitute image theft? Nothing? You're right about one thing tho, you're not misunderstanding me...your simply trying to defend your right to take images that do not belong to you, to do with as you please in your 'own home' Do the said artists of those images you have in your 'own home' KNOW that you have their images? I bet not...not if you say you dont have to ask their permission to use them or even have them... This is rediculous...Im going to bed...I know there will be more exciting discussions when I wake up...

Bot for heaven's sake... Every time you LOOK at a frikkin image on the net it is DOWNLOADED TO YOUR COMPUTER! If that is theft then browsers are illegal, coz they do such a blatantly illegal thing every time they display an image. sigh Next thing you know you'll need permission to VIEW an image here on Rosity...or...? Image theft is when you download it and redistribute it. Or alter it and redistribute the altered version. Image theft is NOT downloading it on your PC or using it as a wallpaper on your desktop. sheesh.... Yesterday I was blamed for condoning warez becourse I helped a newbie. Now I'm a thief becourse my browser caches images to display them?

I think being against anyone even using an image as wallpaper is rather extreme but people have the right to feel that way. As has been pointed out however, technically, we would all have to empty our browser caches after every visit to Renderosity. Even then, for a certain period, the image is probably still going to be there until that part of the disk is overwritten. In order to avoid steping on someone's toes, we would have to reformat or secure wipe our drives every time we visited the galleries, just to avoid having a dreaded copy. Irregardless of DMCA and other legal issues, a little common sense need to prevail. If anyone is that close with their images that they can only be viewed on-line in real time, freshly downloaded and then purged, then I agree that perhaps the internet is not the ideal environment for them to use for displaying those images. Of course, the Navajo have a cure for the problem. Their sacred sand paintings are created and then destroyed on the same day.

Actually we did that at 3-D Arena awhile back - posted a nude image for a postworking challenge. Frankly using an image on your desktop and not sharign it seems just fine to me - but I have todsay that I am more flattered when I am contacted by members who have said "I grabbed your image such&such to use on my desktop..." To know they enjoyed it enough to want to look at it over and over again and that they took the time to tell me so - makes me all happy and pink ;-) Of course I always write them back. as for "the image(s) he used were from the gallery - as in images that do not have a monetary value placed upon them??" That's not really true. I have sold images that were in the gallery here - larger versions of course and I've received commission work as a result of my work displayed here - so they do indeed have a monetary value :-D

I hate to say this but Lunaseas challenge seems to have gotten lost in this thread, perhaps she could post the image again to a new thread with a challenge title? I'd like to give it a shot. It's a great starter image :)

I did.

thanks :)

LSM - good to see you here hugs and thank you for your point about the monetary value - that setting was something I had not thought of before. Gives me something more to think about ;) In any case the few artists whose work I have saved do know I have them w/minor modifications for the image to either fit on my screen better and/or a change in the color saturation to suit my 'color' tastes ;)

Ahhh geez...Im NOT talking about about images that are automatically copied to the HDD people, Im talking about knowingly right-clicking an image and saving it..forget it..keep taking things without asking...eventually you will get caught..just dont come here whining and complaining about so and so accusing you of stealing their artwork that you so rightly deserve.

This is unbelievable... If someone wants to save my image and mess with it - fine. As long as they're not sharing it but are just doing it for their own amusement, I don't mind at all. Calling it image theft and making a big fuss about it is absolutely ridiculous, imho.

I agree with Eowyn. I would be flattered if somone wanted to use my image as a wallpaper. And if anyone would like to mess with any of my images fine as long as they aren't trying to sell it or redistribute it in any way. If it's image theft, why then on my mouse right click to i have the option to "save as wallpaper"?

yep, I don't mind wallpaper at all.....I just mind if you post something of mine that you have modified without my permission. It gets rediculous if we start getting on people's cases simply for changing the image. If you save it to your computer fine...if you play with it, and it never gets seen by anybody else then fine, if it is going to be seen by other people, get the artist's permission. And if nothing else at all...please credit the origianl artist. I had somebody actually have the balls to take my "elven charms" picture....change the color of the choker to blue and then she said she made the picture. I'm pretty easy going about things and almost always give permission to use my artwork if you just ask me, and that this person did that pissed me off. Slighty offtopic maybe, but is there software out there canlook for an image on the internet? I've seen my pic used occaisianlyt without my permission...but that was just by chance. I'd just be curious if my stuff is out there and where and how it was being used.

Lunaseas - one way to look for your image is to simply type in the file name (either the one you gave it or the one Renderosity gave it upon upload or even by the title of the image, "elven charms" for example).

Try using Google's image search function. Of course, if someone changed the filename, that isn't going to help :-) If you use Digimarc to digitally watermark your images and subscribe to their service they have a spiders that crawl the web and locate any marked images, supplying you with a report of where they were found. "eventually you will get caught" - Er, no, not unless you plan to go to everyone's home and look on their computers.

OK, here's my Saturday morning effort - where's everyone else's? I love postwork challenges!

That's lovely! Love the loose tangle of the 'braids'.

Just a quick one here. busy busy.. :)

Helen

Me too me too! This was fun! :)

Oh WOW - those are all awesome!!

Well, I figured I's try my hand at this. My second time attempting to paint hair and clothes. Not happy with it, but I had a lot of fun, thanks! :D

Great entries so far :) Good luck to everyone. Ok here is my attempt, all done in Photo Shop with my mouse *I am dying to be able to afford a tablet!*