OK...I'm relatively new here, and I don't have a lot of time to spend online but when I do view new fractals, I am always amazed at the high quality of work that goes into the posted images. But unfortunately, in the last two months several top fractal artists have left suddenly. Of those, only one gave a specific and, understandable reason. The others sound genuinely PO'd... Is there something we should know? Are these isolated incidents...or..were they pushed out? Should us newbies leave too? So, can someone come clean and tell us what the real problem is here?

I've been lurking here about a week and a half. I signed up because of the beautiful fractal images I saw, (upon following a link about apophysis fractals.) It is a shame people are leaving. I love logging on every day to see what people have put up. It's inspiring, as well as somewhat intimidating. :)

Hi, I supposed I must consider myself among those good artists who left? I haven't really left. It is just that I haven't posted since some time. And I don't know if and when I will post again. I am presently 'elsewhere'. Just want to take some distance from the i*net in general and have more time for my life outside fractals. For my part, this is not related to R-sity in particular. If you take a look at my gallery, there are still some images. Miche Dessureault

hmmm. Deagol was supposed to be deactivated today so I am surprised that I can see this and I'll even be more surprised if this post posts... The best fractal artists are still here. To find them just look in the most or best galleries. I don't know if you considered me one of those top fractal artists, but I am definitely gone. Did I get pushed out? Absolutely not. It's more like I felt like I was being sucked in, deeper and deeper, and I got tired of feeling that way. The other reason for leaving is that I objected to the link that appeared in my gallery to the most viewed gallery. Hey, if this place is good for you, stay with it. It did wonders for me in terms of building my confidence and challenging me to improve, and there is some wonderful, inspirational art here. Above all, great friendships can be made. Just make sure that you build images for your own satisfaction. Watch out for the sycophants (look it up, I had to) and don't become one yourself. Don't let the flattery go to your head. Keep your life in balance (grasshopper). If you can do these things, you will do better than I did. And then there is the departure of Matt. I have to admit, I got a kick out of that when I heard about it. I respect his decision. I think it took guts to do that. On the other hand, it is unfair to the other nominees. There's no chance of a fractal artist making Artist of the Year, so there is no loss there. That will always go to the Poser gallery. The fractal community will always stand in the shadow of the large breasts in the most viewed gallery. Those babies pay the bills on this site.

I'm fairly new too and concerned about the great artists leaving. I looked forward to all their work. If they're just involved with other things, that's understandable. I wish, if that's the case, that they'd leave their galleries too though, as I enjoy going through the older stuff as well. I agree, if there is something going on, I'd like to know what it is. Hopefully no one else will go. It would be nice if someone replaced the Featured Fractal on the community page instead of just leaving a blank space with question marks.

Keith, you're preaching to the choir here. I agree totally with your post, and frankly, the reasons you've listed for your own departure have a lot to do with why I rarely stop in and look around here any more. You said: "Just make sure that you build images for your own satisfaction. Watch out for the sycophants (look it up, I had to) and don't become one yourself. Don't let the flattery go to your head. Keep your life in balance (grasshopper). If you can do these things, you will do better than I did." You know, these words are familiar to me. They, more or less, were uttered to me by a friend who left this place a couple of months ago (had been phasing out before that, too). It's all a popularity contest and really has only somewhat to do with good art. Mostly it's just people who hang together telling each other how wonderful they are -- and sometimes I look at what is being praised the most and it's utter crap. Sometimes it's really beautiful. Too often, though, the really masterful, beautiful stuff gets ignored, or semi-ignored, in favor of crap a first-semester graphics student would turn out. So hey, if this is just a place for people to hang out and stroke each other, fine, if they really need that in order to feel like decent artists. But when you start tailoring your style and art towards what you think people will like -- especially in a venue like this, you (the general "you"), were finished before you ever started. And like you've pointed out, and Matt pointed out, it's all about the tits, man. Matter of fact, when I was told by a moderator about the new cover contest I told the moderator that I wasn't interested -- that, after all, the only people who win are Poser users. Ick. Happy trails, Keith, Linda, Matt, and those of you who have left for much greener pastures. :)

I am not disturbed by the tits. But I agree about the popularity contest. Comments and voting are supposed to promote good art or better art. But the true fact is that some real crap is overrated and overpraised and really good art gets ignored. But you see also real crap and good art that get what they merit. I also suggest to read some threads in the Copyright Laws forum. I will just repeat what can be read on these threads. I don't know if it still happens, but some merchants sold stolen copyrighted goods. Once discovered and their store closed, real owners never saw a penny from their sales and buyers were never reimbursed. Worse, some of those merchants came back, started new stores and here we go again. This warned, even if you don't post, R-sity is a goldmine of ressources related to digital art. Just this is a good reason to stay. Miche

A mixed bag of emotions for me:

Yes, R'osity is and always will be Poser-(read neckid_chicks_for_immature_males)-focused. And also, yes the galleries will always be subject to popularity games. It's the nature of the beast.

That said, in our own corner, we can do our own bit to buck the trends. How?

1. Be critical of your own work (--by which I mean 'do a critique', not slam yourself unmercifully--) before you post...Is it the best you can do? Does it show your own originality/personality/style to it's best advantage? Has it improved on what you have posted before?
2. When commenting on others' work, do you use terms relating to art (ie. 'composition', 'color', etc.) or do you only emote? I know that the former is more helpful to me as an artist, seeking to improve, than the latter. Yes, fractals can be hard to analyse, but even abstract art can follow artistic forms. Try to say why a picture appeals to you.
3. When you have a problem with a pic, or a suggestion for improvement, try using R'osity's IM feature, and send it privately. That way, feeling don't get hurt and the suggestion may be more likely to be accepted in good faith.

Final comments:
I will miss dearly those who have departed, for whatever reason they had for their decisions. I wish them well, and hope to encounter them in other places on the Web with cheers and glad-some hugs. For the time being, I shall remain--for my own reasons,...although I haven't been as active lately due to RealLifeConcerns. :( bleh

Hugz to everyone!

I love art. I love looking at art. I love making art. But what good would it be if I was the only one ever to see my art? If no one ever shared their art, I would only have my own to look at. To me, art is also sharing. I make art that suits me, that makes me happy. The way I figure it, I am not the only person that might like it, so I share it here. If it makes other people happy to see it, then that's wonderful. If they don't like it, they don't have to look at it! My point is, if you make art that makes you happy, others will enjoy it. Don't make your art just to get comments. Make your art from your heart and soul, and then others will like it too. Tres

I agree with all of the above... There are good and bad things about this site. Each person has to weigh them up and decide for themselves how much they can put up with. I just got to the point where the bad things outweighed the good and knew it was time to go. One thing I will add is that if someone does decide to leave then respect their decision. Attacking them just because you feel they have let you or the rest of the community down is not a nice thing to do. They obviously have reasons for doing it and you may not know what they are...Also, you never know if you may want to leave sometime. How would you want to be treated? Thank you very much to everyone that ever said anything nice about any of my images. Over and out... Matt.

I totally agree - I haven't been here at renderosity very long, but it appears to be more of a popularity contest than a community of artists. The renderosity administrators should take note: it may be "fun" from a programming standpoint to tally votes, and rankings and page views, and to create formulas for singling out images and artists, but HELLO this has nothing to do with art! Elections and popularity contests are enormously entertaining for bystanders, but not necessarily so for the artists who are trying to express themselves with their art. Web programmers who enjoy tallying votes and keeping statistics and page hits might not understand this, but unfortunately the burden falls on them (in this circumstance) to discover structure for interaction which does not favor a mob mentality. Good luck.

Terry, to be quite honest, I miss seeing your work. I do occasionally look at your site to see what's been added, but it's so much easier to look in a central location, like RO, to see what people have added to their galleries. And that, to me, is the main function of this place. Yes, it's wonderful to receive compliments on one's work; and by the same token, I like to be able to comment upon another's work. But when you look at some of the glowing remarks for some pieces, they seem so strained (and I mean in a manic, hyperbolic -- artificial way), that it's almost laughable, and THAT is what gets me sometimes. And I don't understand it. I would not WANT remarks on my work that were not sincere; and likewise, I do not comment upon anything that hasn't moved me in some way. If I want to just say "hi" to someone, I IM them (though I'm awful at correspondence, as anyone who has tried to do so with me can attest to, including yourself...). I, too, am in favor of doing away with the counts and the lists that foster the popularity contest atmosphere. They serve no purpose other than to create a false atmosphere. Someone, was it Keith?, used the word "sycophant," and I think it's appropriate in some cases. I believe it was Dryden who said: "A sycophant will everything admire: Each verse, each sentence, sets his soul on fire." Eh. In the end, I ask myself, "what does it matter?" After all, it's only Renderosity, it's not The Met, after all. So being number one here isn't exactly something to write home about, and it many times has nothing to do with actual art. Still, the process is divisive, and that's the problem.

Damn, i'll never get away from here at this rate...LOL I totally agree with the above comments as well. It's been a while (about 2 years) since i've been to an Art Gallery. While I was there I don't remember seeing pieces of paper and pens under each painting for people to write comments on...There were no little boxes to tick under 'Excellent', 'Good' and 'Crap'. There was also no one standing at the exit taking polls on who I thought was the best artist... Maybe this is a missed opportunity for Art Galleries everywhere? Maybe they can increase the number of 'hits' on old masters paintings by adding a bit of interactivity to the whole process? After all we're in the middle of a revolution...Video Mobile Phones, Interactive Digital Television, Broadband Internet Access, etc, etc...Why would anyone want to actually get up out of their chair, go outside their house and visit an Art Gallery? Maybe Art Galleries everywhere should take a leaf out of Renderosity's book and follow suit...? Or maybe not...

LOL!! Er, well, actually, there are a few pieces galleries have bought up that I'd love to be able to comment upon (ever hear of the acquisition of "Polar Bear in the Snow," which is basically a white canvas with a black dot on it -- the bear's nose , for $1,000,000?). Stupidity abounds wherever one goes, really. But yes, point taken. Shades of the movie Demolition Man... "now all art galleries are Renderosity." eek! I think it's all fine if one doesn't take it too seriously, but honestly, I know it can sometimes be hard not to at times. I was never one to want to be part of a snobbish clique even back in high school, so it's certainly no time to desire it now, that's for sure -- and that's what is irritating to me, it's like too many adults seem to never have outgrown that high school attitude. And I don't mean just here, but many online places and IRL. And honestly, when I talk about art and artists, I'm talking more an attitude than even ability, because so much of that is relative anyway. When one is an artist, one creates are because s/he must, not because there is a group of annonymous 'artists' somewhere out there with the ability to give praise, or take it away.

Well, here is what I think: though I may be more blase than some people here with regard to the competitive air of this website, I agree with the well-stated criticism by Cruel Animal and Fractalgrrl. I believe that ratings and view numbers simply have no place in a true art community. Further, when talented artists like Terry and Deagol leave a community, and those Poser manglers run amok, there is a problem. If Renderosity wants to address the issue of artistic integrity, and the loss of valuable talent, they will act. If they are only interested in the mercenary point of view, they will not. Let's find out. I think a good idea would be to have a petition written and passed around, and when/if a large number of their members express their like-minded feelings about this matter, perhaps the administrators will do something about it. It certainly couldn't hurt to try. Mindy

Mindy, that's a nice thought but it will never happen. Just click on the top sellers link under hot products on the right side of this page, and take a look at the banner ads that come up on every page. This place depends on soft porn for its survival. Something has to pay for the server space and bandwidth and it sure isn't going to be the fractal gallery. The fractal gallery survives on the cleavage of the Poser gallery.

Excellent points by everyone, and maybe it's just me, but I still don't see what the problem is. For those that don't like ratings/comments...I think there is the ability to disable comments and ratings on posted images. Perhaps what's really missing is HONESTY in comments. I very rarely see constructive criticism...and maybe that's because nobody wants to hurt anyone else's feelings. Regarding the tally of # of views....does anyone really care? Some of the ones I thought would merit a ton of views got relatively few...and vice versa. Why?...probably a myriad of reasons...maybe the thumbnail didn't catch the eye...and, yes maybe it was by an "unknown" artist. But, whatever...so be it....that is just the way it is. I suspect that most post here for fun(I'm certainly not making any money off it)...so...maybe we need to keep that in mind and take things a little less seriously.

Hi Gradient, I really couldn't agree more. All this stuff just isn't all that important to me, but by the same token I don't want to invalidate others' feelings...because clearly, it is important to many others. To me, what is best about being here is the opportunity to meet some special people....Tresamie, Pennylane, FractalLinda, Paragon, Marion and many others come to mind. If somebody wants to click their mousepads off on a pile of crap while typing those compliments in frenzied exuberance, rock on. :) S'okay with me. :) Mindy

Just to elaborate a little further. Renderosity is more concerned about their own survival than they are about art. Pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry and R'osity is tapping into the light end of that. To ask them to remove the most viewed gallery is asking them to cut of their right arms. Everything about this site is structured to point out the highest source of income.

Hi Terry, I dunno, "serious" is kinda relative. My mother was just diagnosed with stomach cancer and her doctor told me she has about six months to live. I myself am having some very serious and life-threatening surgery in a few months. Soldiers are dying in Iraq; in Israel, children going to school on buses are being blown up and their body parts are being strewn all over the place. Maybe I am just in a mood, and if so, please forgive me...but in the scheme of things, rating systems on websites and artists leaving art communities aren't really all that important. If you have people around you that love you, and you feel healthy, then perhaps a little perspective is needed. Mindy

Gradient,I guess you know now what the problem is. Nudity and rankings and votes. The way I see it concerning my rankings , votes and comments ,it is a way for people to let me know that they enjoyed what I did and not that I'm popular or not. I don't care about popularity,I enjoy making the images and Rosity gave me the opportunity to share it with others and that's what i'm doing. When I rank or vote or comment on someone else hisher image it's because I want them to know I enjoyed the image. I sometimes also use naked women in my images but that's because I think they are beautiful in the same way ,I think fractals,animals or the night is beautiful. I will use anything that I think is needed to make an in my Opinion beautiful image. If that is a problem than rosity is not the problem but whe as humans are becuase everything is based on that. Why do you think a Rembrandt ,Rubens or van Gogh painting cost so much money,because people give it high rankings,comments or votes in their heads but thats all in the amount of money people are willing to pay for it To me It's the same thing but with a different face and that goes for many things we as humans do. I think if you want to rank,comment or vote do so and if you don't want to than don't. If nudity is offensive than filter it and if you think it's not don't. I respect everyone,those who left and those who stayed. Everyone got the right to his her visions and expressions and the right to life according to that vision. For me with or without,votes, rankings and so on I enjoy creating the images and I leave them on if someone wants to let me know heshe enjoyed something I did. If no one does fine I still enjoy what I created. I think that's the most important thing enjoy what your doing and let your imagination run as free as possible. Be a free spirit. These are my thoughts , Longrider4ever.

...And I also left out Nancy Pelosi's hair and Kyocera Mita commercials ;) Yeah, Terry, I know what you mean...I am just in a foul mood. I do respect how you feel and did say above that I did not want to invalidate anyone's strong feelings about this matter. For what it's worth, I always appreciate when someone leaves a place without fanfare, as you did. To me, that packs a way bigger punch. {{{{{{{{Terry}}}}}}}}}}}

Brian, Unfortunately the nudity cannot be filtered out. If I want to share my gallery with my 8 year old nephew who lives in another state, the first button that he is going to push will be the most viewed button, thinking that he will see what is most viewed in my gallery. What is he going to see? T&A. He has no account preferences to filter it out. This single problem makes it impractical for me to use renderosity as a way of sharing my images with my friends and family.

Just a thought - Are any of you folks able to make a site for fractals only, thats as easy to use as this and that any of us who wanted to join could contribute to the making and upkeep? (there's an opportunity here for some clever person to make a few bucks). I don't have my own website (one day maybe) so R*****, even though its far from ideal, is the only place I can post my fractals. I wonder how many of us would be here if we could be someplace else.

We have a site almost just like that, Fayrelady. And it is free. The fractal artists ring, the ring Tina and I run, has a user's gallery where people can upload their images into their own personal gallery. You can't comment on the images, but you can have your own gallery, though, on the net. The URL to the FAR is http://www.tcdesign.net/fractalpp_webring.htm The thing is you need a website of some kind, even an AOL homepage is fine, to be able to join the ring to be able to utilize the user galleries. It is ideal for people with free websites who dont have enough space, or HTML skills, and they can have their own beautiful galleries.

This is hello and goodbye for me. I've been posting fractals here for only a few weeks, but the ranking system is very upsetting for me, and last night when I tried to make a new fractal image I couldn't even do it. So I am going to remove them now. If anyone here is interested in them, they will still be on my own site (searching for 'john mitchell' is the quickest way to find it). Vicky Brago-Mitchell

OK!! All of you have lots af interesting ideas, I think that worths!!

Definitely Keith and cruelanimal said it all. I was getting bored and bored and unmotivated every day - and it doesn't happen anymore, and I'm satisfied with my images again and pleased to make new ones without having to follow any "trend" or "standards". I do visit the galleries occasionaly and post in the forum but that's it. To me the last drop in the glass I think was having some image "stolen" (quotation marks are optional depending on your conception of "steal") and being used as a background for a Poser image - the composite image was made first, then I was asked if I could let the other "artist" use it in his/her masterpiece, after the image had been posted. It was a nice composition, but it wasn't so nice that it had to be done that way.