Attached Link: 1. Two Faces of Poserpros by sargebear on 12/26/03 18:36 (Deleted)

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by JohnRender on 12/31/03 14:42

Admins: can we please change the forum software so a poster can not delete a message once a reply has been posted? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's sick of jumping into a controversial posting only to see the original posting is long gone.

=== > by CyberStretch on 1/1/04 15:24

I agree, the original post should not be able to be deleted after being responded to.

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Ref the link for the original thread.

Gads, that makes me sound rather official. I was just making the suggestion as a member of the community because I know requests get a little lost in threads, and that is frustrating to everyone. Take care, and thank you for the help.

Oh, I thought it was an official request! ;0)

Regardless, now it is available for everyone to comment on.

Yipes, that was far from my intent. I think I need to get uncoordinated...I don't want everything I post to seem as if it is coming from an official source when most of the time it is just me blithering on. To start the discussion on topic, my thinking is that the original poster should have the right to delete a message they have had second thoughts about. I recall several (alas, many) instances where I posted in the heat of the moment and then decided to delete because I knew I had yet again made a fool out of myself. Overall, I'd rather be able to delete than not....until someone installs common sense into me. On the other hand, it really bugs me when someone asks for help, gets it, and then deletes the post so we don't know what the question was. It does make some threads very confusing to follow. I don't think there is one rule that will make everyone happy.

IMHO, I don't think posts should be deleted once they've been responded too. If you come to your senses immediately, you should be able to delete it. I've done that then reposted if I found an glaring typo (you know, like missing a VERY important "not" or something.) Once it's been part of the conversation, though, it needs to stay there. Otherwise it's confusing, and in some cases deceptive. How many times has there been an "I didn't say that" when there was no way to see WHAT they said because it'd been deleted? You can't take a remark back IRL; if it mucks up the threads, I don't think you should be allowed to do it here. We all oughtta be prepared to sleep in the beds we make; maybe we'd make a few less of them (but, probably not).

I agree with Cyberstretch and Fyrespirit. It's becoming irritating in Poser forum to see a request for help, one reply that doesn't always appear to answer the title of the post and the original deleted. It's common across phpbb systems that a post cannot be deleted once it has been answered and this works fine in most circumstances. The logic being. Think before you post. Dialyn. As you are a co-ordinator on this website it is impossible to "assume" that you are just "blithering on" unless you state such. Anything else you say must be taken as being from an official context. Same as any moderator, co-ordinator or admin on this site. If the members are now to assume that staff are just "blithering" imagine the chaos. Smitthms recently dropped threats into one thread (although I wasn't aware co-ordinators could hand out warnings) if people think that staff are blithering he would have been completely ignored and things may have gotten worse. Something for you to consider in the future perhaps.

"Coordinator Dialyn" - i like that one! :) i agree about not deleting after a respond. think first, write later.

"To start the discussion on topic, my thinking is that the original poster should have the right to delete a message they have had second thoughts about."

This would make a good argument for something else that is sorely needed: an EDIT function.

If Members could edit what they have said vs completely deleting it, I could understand. Likewise, instead of wielding an iron fist, the Admins/Mods/Coords/etc could Edit out any TOS-violating commentary while leaving the pertinent parts of a post intact so the conversation could continue without the, usually, unnecessary locking of threads; liberally used to squelch topics of Member - but maybe not PTB - interest.

The lack of Editing is a serious oversight and a serious drawback to the numerous other fora software available on the Net.

I would much rather see an Edit vs a Delete function, IMHO.

Okay, it's officially unofficial...anything I posted in this thread or the related one is just me blithering. :) While I would love an edit button, I know there is a concern that members would say something flaming and then later edit it out and try to look innocent about the whole thing. My main strategy these days is to write out the message and not post it. But sometimes I forget. And regret. :( My bad.

"While I would love an edit button, I know there is a concern that members would say something flaming and then later edit it out and try to look innocent about the whole thing."

And, what prevents them from Deleting it altogether? Deleting still poses more problems than simple Editing, IMHO.

You're probably right. But, of course, if someone wanted to edit instead of delete, they simply could edit out the entire message which would leave you in the same place as the delete. Remember, it is the author of the message doing the deletions, so you could still end up with empty messages.

R'osity could restrict the Edit and/or Delete from the first (or any) post that has been responded to. That should avoid any abuse.

I have no vote in the matter, but it seems like that would work.

Well, been gone for awhile, and ran across this topic...I can't tell you how many times I have posted, only to realize that something is misspelled, or something is missing altogether after the fact. ~and I hate that preview thingy..I never use it~ I think edit/delete options would be very nice indeed..but for arguments sake or flame-fests, the admins could always keep the first hardcopy of the post ;) That way we wouldn't be bothered with I never said that..if it came down to brass tacks, the original could always be reposted by admins to whomever needed to see it....thats my opinion anyway ;)

With this subject, as in so much else, there is a balancing act going on between advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage - the ability to re-think your words. U.S. Congressmen are allowed this privilege in the Congressional Record. They can edit the record of their floor speeches after the fact. Good or Bad?

Disadvantage - History being re-written, and forum threads not making any sense / being difficult to follow.

You can, of course, prevent the thing that you are responding to from being deleted by quoting it in your own post. Of course, there is then a danger of being accused of misquoting. Oh, well.....

CyberStretch - Why don't you try a little experiment, and delete your first post in this thread?

Leave it the way it is.

DELETED

Oh I agree. Once something has been responded to it should be 'locked in'.

How about a SPELL CHECKER so some posts won't need EDITING....:)

Let them delete their message if they want. If they wrote something stupid, why punish them by locking it in? Since it will give them a bad reputation for "dead-heading" a thread, it's almost a self-limiting mechanism. They will learn to avoid doing it in time.

If you take away the ability to delete your own post, then you take away freedom. <--- note the peroid at the end.

<--- note the peroid at the end. Uh, oh.....typo......"period" not "peroid". Edit? Delete?

Where's that spell-checker..........

hehe smart ass! :P

ok, this isn't a subject I'm overly passionate about so if someone wants to argue with me, then whatever. But some of the comments here are kinda disturbing. The majority of the people who post here are grown adults, yet when I read stuff about not wanting to allow us to edit our own frickin' posts because a few immature brats MIGHT say one thing and edit it later to look innocent...I feel like a 5-year-old being told I can't have any pudding if I don't eat my meat. If someone is so offended by a tos violation in somebody else's post...do a screen capture of it and send it to a mod or whatever. All I can do is shake my head at being told we're not responsible enough to have the freedom to edit our own posts (which is more-or-less what's being said here). The benefits of an edit button far outweigh the problems it would cause.

Moi?! I'm cut to the quick!

IndigoSplash, if it were purely hypothetical, I would agree with you. However, many times in the past, on this board and on others, people have "rewritten the past" or deleted incriminating evidence. The ability has been abused, in some cases it has caused a disruption of the normal forum exchange, and that is why this request is being made. The problem has been demonstrated.

I see your point FyreSpirit and thank you for that. I still can't help but think there's a better solution though. There should always be caution used when solving a problem by punishing the whole lot, so-to-speak. I speak from experience after having been a moderator for a very large on-line community (not an art site). It would take more than a post or two to explain where I'm coming from. So I apologize for being vague here. Aside from that, the temperment of artists doesn't mesh well with authority and repression as it is...I'm just getting a little concerned lately is all. The atmosphere here reminds me too much of what happened to the site I belonged to before I'd had enough of it and moved on. I'd hate for it to get that bad.

Just so everybody is clear on this. A message is never actually deleted from this site. It's merely cloaked to everyone except the Admin. All of those embarrasing things you say...then decide to delete... are still being read by the PTB. That should be deterrent enough not to post something unless you're really sure you want other people to see it.

Never deterred me. :/ Unfortunately.

But, even though the Admins/Mods can see it, the Members can't.. read the first post.

Why are people so worried about seeing someone put their foot in their mouth? The answers are more more useful than the questions anyway. Even if you don't know the question. You can certainly figure it out by the answers given. Can't you? Please help me figure out why NOT knowing what snide remark, slip of the tongue, or question a member posted is such a big deal.

Scott, it's not just watching people put their foot in their mouth. There is a growing number of posts (especially in Poser Forum) where someone has asked a question relevant to the software, got one answer and deleted their post, leaving others (newbie and veteran alike) to try and second guess what the heck was said. This isn't particularly helpful if you're looking for information on a particular subject, especially if the answer is "I dunno, maybe someone else does" or similar. Yes foot in mouth has some reasoning, for instance the habit of certain members to delete everything they say in threads in an effort to "look innocent", I can name four who do that as a matter of course following a discussion that hasn't gone their way. Mostly though it's just annoying to have threads completely disrupted by this. There are more than a few conversations that make absolutely no sense at all because of deletions.

Forum threads are, in many ways, like pages in an article or chapters in a book - they tend to build off one another; as long as the thread stays on topic. The initial post (aka the Prologue or First Chapter) sets the scene, general tone, etc, of what follows. By being able to delete posts, you are effectively reducing the overall benefit of the thread by removing, oftentimes, the key points that the rest build off of. Imagine what would be lost if the article/book/whatever you are reading suddenly lost the introduction and/or several paragraphs/chapters before you finished it. Would it make as much sense to you if some of the key points throughout were stricken?

If the post has no merit, then when just "cloak" it vs actually deleting it? Obviously, for it to consume resources, it must have something beneficial to offer or it is nothing but a waste of space. Likewise, if you can "cloak" a post, you can also maintain a history of changes as well; it just takes a little more effort to do so.

Since 95% of all other forum software contain the ability to Edit a post, there is obviously a reason for having it; or else why bother coding it in the first place?

How many posts have you seen that contain valid points, but may temporarily digress into a flame, and the whole post is removed? Would it not be better to be able to go in and strike out the flame and keep the rest vs losing everything in the post?

If congress can edit history - events that one would suppose to be more far reaching, I think we can allow the only method of edit we have here at Renderosity which is to delete. Though mildly irksome, I think it is better to allow someone to change their minds and delete than to force them to leave every word. Trouble makers can still be found out and dealt with behind the scenes and the thread can go back to being informational. Those who feel their comments or questions are no longer needed or taken badly, or if they found their info elsewhere ( how many post before searching for the answer in a previous thread?) should be allowed to remove their posts. If the question seems to still need answering another member can re-ask the question. Just my opinion. ( I reserve the right to delete this post at any point in the future. :-) )

"I think we can allow the only method of edit we have here at Renderosity which is to delete."

Since Delete is "the only method of edit we have", would that not suggest that Editing may be a prudent addition? If you had a choice, would you edit or delete your posts if you made a mistake?

Edit is almost always a better option, but alas I don't know what it would take to add to the forums here. I have always presumed that it would be a monumental effort since edit has been asked for in the past but never added.

how many post before searching for the answer in a previous thread While I do agree with much you say Barbarellany, I think that threads should stay intact, the option to EDIT a post would be more acceptable to most than the ability to delete a post. However, this one statement I've selected, have you tried searching for something in Poser forum? Or any forum? You get a mass of disorganised stuff back, much utterly irrelevant. The search functions on this website are possibly the worst I've ever encountered and it seems utterly incapable of handling even a simple boolean search. I have a feeling there's a good reason so many questions are asked over and over and over again, and it's not always because the poster is too lazy to look for the answer. :)

I don't know how difficult edit would be to add to this forum. It appears to me that it is already active for certain staff members so it's obviously built into the forum software. Renderosity is a flagship example for Bondware software which is sold to customers. If a customer wants edit (which many I should think do) it would seem a rather silly exclusion. Most likely it simply has been disabled for this site rather than excluded from the code.

So why then not just add edit? PTB? are you there? Can you answer this question?

R'osity already knows who the Member is, and what the MessageID/ReplyID is. All an Edit function would require is:

1. The ability to call up the stored text in a multi-line text box (such as the Reply box);
2. Allow the Member to make changes; and
3. Issue an UPDATE statement to the backend database to replace the message.

Of course, if R'osity wanted to keep previous versions of the post, they could substitute the new post's ReplyID for the MessageID and keep the old one for posterity.

Whereas Tim has procliamed his affection for databasing in the past, this should be an easy option to implement; given his technical background.

Problem with this is, how do ya know that its been replied to or not. Forums aren't threaded, so I make a post and goof up, but before I can delete it to rewrite, someone else has posted and I'm screwed. And if its something where people can mistake it for something else (OH MY GOD! NOT HERE!), it'll only cause fights and the mods will actually have to do work. If the ability to edit posts are enabled, but you can't delete, whats to stop someone from removing all text from a post (and don't say "We can have it so if there is no text, we will have it reject the edit" because there are ways around that.

"Forums aren't threaded"

Look above at the URL and you will see you are incorrect. The URL lists the Forum, Message, Reply, and Post - if you click on one. In fact, I will dissect it for you. Your post:

• ForumID=12357 is the Community Center Forum ID
• &Form.ShowMessage=1596184 is the First Message ID
• &Reply=1598324 is Your Reply ID
• #42 is Your post number in the thread.

Therefore, your post (1598324), is a child of the First Message (1596184). How do you think that the forum software knows that your Reply belongs with my Message?

"so I make a post and goof up, but before I can delete it to rewrite, someone else has posted and I'm screwed..."

That depends on when you notice the goof up. Since the forum software shows you your post immediately after posting, you could easily click Delete and restart before anyone has a chance to read it. If you decline to re-read, who's fault is that?

There is a very slight chance that someone will post immediately to your initial post before you can click on a link. If you could Edit the post, then you could fix the goof up, right? So Deleting is moot.

"If the ability to edit posts are enabled, but you can't delete, whats to stop someone from removing all text from a post"

Nothing, I suppose. But you also post at another forum where this is possible, IIRC, and how often does that happen realistically?

"(and don't say "We can have it so if there is no text, we will have it reject the edit" because there are ways around that."

Both are possible if you know what to look for and how much you are willing to qualify the text before processing.

Perhaps someone can illustrate why having a Delete funtion and not an Edit function is a viable solution? You can argue pretty much the same case for either situation. To me, the Edit function would be much more versatile than the Delete; which would make it the preferable choice anyway.

What I meant was it isnt threaded in the traditional sense. You can only make your posts a child of the OP, and not any other really. The controls for threading arent as detailed here as they are for a news group or some of the other forums. I've seen it though where when I've posted, there has been another post waiting after it loads up. That does happen when its an active thread and if ya got a slower connection (it happened to me the other day, and you know how little I post here). Also I know that when I make a post, I can reread it as much as I want, but it still will make sense to me, but then a few minutes later, a friend tells me "Hey man, ya know that what ya said can mean this" (this is a common occurance for me). As far as someone removing text from their post when they cannot delete does happen quite a bit. Someone gets pissed at different people making fun of what they say, and they remove it. Or they think the post isnt valid anymore, because info contained has changed, so they just remove it so a casual looker wont be misinformed. Personally, I think you should have both edit and delete at all times.

The rule should be: If you post a message, you can edit or delete it until it has been replied to. If you change your mind, or weren't thinking, or whatever, you usually have a few minutes until someone responds. People should realize that once they hit the "Submit" button, the message is posted forever. After a reply has been posted, there should be no deleting or editting of posts. Some examples: 1) The example in the first message, above: someone posts a scathing message, gets some replies that he doesn't like, so he deletes his original message. 2) Someone posts a question, gets an answer and then deletes the question. The follow-up answer is then like "Jeopardy": every gets to guess what the original question was... which is fun on a game show, but in a message board. 3) Editting: Someone posts a nasty message. Someone replies to the message. Poster #1 then edits the message to remove the offending comments and then claims that he's the victim. It's happened here before. 4) Or, what about when people go through and delete ALL of their postings, including messages that are in a huge argument thread. For, one, it collapses the argument because that person's point-of-view is gone, and two, deleting the posts marks the message thread as "unread".

What about when someone says something that is taken wrong, and it starts a huge arguement (which has happened here before)

Then they clarify it in another post. Not that difficult. Like an Editorial retraction in a newspaper.

That dont always work. Had that problem the other day, I said something, and a person took it the wrong way and wouldn't believe me when I tried to clarify.

Even Editing/Deleting is not going to change someone's adverse disposition. :0)

Yeah, but it can stop others from making the same mistake and joining in, and if things are changed and the person doesnt continue with the person with future posts in that thread its more likely to be dropped