I'm not here to upset people, but Ive noticed that this site is slowly becoming a pile where people can throw their not so good work. Instead of people listening to critiques and becoming better artist, they are throwing together 5 minute pictures, and are getting comments and votes on something that wouldnt make it on any other art site. Is this site nothing more than a popularity contest? I understand you may have frinds here, but I thought this was an "art" community. Ive also noticed Im seeing better work in the galleries than in the hot20. This is really true in the 2d gallery. Some of the stuff Ive seen in the 2d hot2o belongs in the beginner gallery or work in progress. Theres nothing wrong with being a beginner. Im not a bad person and Im not trying to find enemies. I just hope that people will try to improve instead of thinking because they made it in the hot20 that they are good artists and dont need to improve. I understand why so many people have token a "break" from this site, and I dont blame them.

Good for you for having said so. I know that I post my images here to get a critique on them in the hope of trying to improve. I know I'm far from perfect, and probably never will be perfect. But it's nice to know where I'm going wrong so that I can improve.

Hello .... I just bought my first pc about one year ago .... I also have taken up photography on my own for approximately the past two years (35mm slr pentax) .... I visit numerous websites similar to renderosity .... I found this had a place for 'photography', in additon to some simply amazing artworks or renderings .... someday, I would love to be able to learn this form of art, also, and then pass it along to another new someone.... right now, however, I'm simply trying to figure out how to 'scan' my "double exposure" pictures properly to then upload here to renderosity for viewing and constructive commentary .... I'll take any and all help on this to begin with .... thanks, ahead of time for those chosing to take a few minutes of his/her valuable time .... most appreciated .... Now, as to the post itself above .... First, I have to say I feel ill at ease trying to 'tell' anyone, anything about 'what is good' and what is 'not good' since I've never rendered b/4 .... I have posted a few times, recently, in comments whenever someone struck me with one of their works .... I think, however, in reference to the above person's initial post, that I do agree in part .... when I judge a 'photograph', I always try my level best to judge it 'technically' .... not emotionally .... however, the human being is an 'emotional' creature .... that's what makes someone post such beautiful works .... emotion .... something touched someone deeply enough to want to take it from conception to finality in their own, unique style .... when I enter 'photo contests' I am amazed by the number of 'judges' who vote for pictures .... I have to most humbly say that many times the best 'technical' picture(s) don't win .... a good 'dog and kid' shot wins over a unique compositon .... here at renderosity, I see that 'nudity' draws a crowd .... what a surprise .... lol .... I'm anything but a prude .... the human form is the most magnificent in my humble opinion.... maybe I should not even comment on anything posted here out of my area .... but, I know what it takes in my particular area to do something good .... and I see works here posted by various individuals that are truly, spectacularly done .... many,many hours are invested I am sure, so I try to reward someone for the 'attempt' whether I deem it a '10' or a '5' .... I guess 'effort' means alot to me .... to me, there is that proverbial 'fine line' between 'critique' and 'critic' .... so, until I, personally learn how to become anywhere near the 'artist' most of you here are, I will try to simply add my humble opinion as to what resonates in me while viewing such works .... I'll leave you with a 'thought' someone passed along to me many years ago .... "Something worth doing, is worth doing 'bad' and 'well'" .... most appreciatively, roadrunner69.

Hello, I understand your concern, and to some degree I agree with you.(not about any specific gallery) But, Members are free to comment in any way they see fit, as long as they stay within the TOS.. Yeah, in some cases the "Hot 20" is a popularity contest. I can also say from persona; experience, some folks just get bent out of shape if you offer ANY criticism.. Even if it is constructive. :-( I don't think this issue is site specific.. I've seen the same thing at other sites.. Remember we live in world where everything has to be "Politically Correct"...

How 'bout you encouraging the people you like? How 'bout you posting on the forums when you discover something wonderful in the galleries...and let people know why you think it's so terrific. If you see a persistent error in art, why not throw out a tutorial on a better way of doing things. You don't have to get personal. Just say something like: "Hey, I have a cool way of doing lighting...have you tried this?" The problem with criticism is that it often becomes personal....but there are other ways to satisfy the need to prove you know more than someone else, which is actually sharing what it is that you know that they don't. Just a thought.

The popularity contest isnt in the hot20 alone. Its on the entire website.

Being new here,does someone 'win' prize monies for being voted 'best'?? .... if not, the one good thing I've learned in my lifetime, is that I don't have to be the 'most popular' .... peoples seeking that 'title' are missing way more than I am so very fortunate to have .... don't let it get to ya' so much .... I remind myself,at times, that "I" loved my picture I took .... even if no one else did .... make any sense to ya'? .... I mean, to use an analogy, If YOU liked 'hamburgers' better than 'steak', would you eat 'steak' just to be popular or would you eat 'hamburger' and GRIN? .... most respectfully....roadrunner69.

My point still stands...these type of issues are not Renderosity exclusive. Look around the web... If you REALLY see something different, let me know. How would you suggest we fix this? I mean c'mon, what should we do? approve comments? That's not even close to being practical.... Folks have their favorites...They will tend to give favorable comments to them.. Please feel free to share your suggestions on how to improve things...

No, no one wins money for being in the hot 20. I see what I was trying to explain is getting lost in a bunvh of excuses on why its ok for Renderosity to be a popularity contest. I see this site as a refridgerator door where people can post whatever pictures they can. Just because you made a picture doesnt mean you should post it. Alot of artists know that you only show your best work. I find it funny that Renderosity has a forum for people looking for work. Ive been told by a few people that they would never come here to look for people, not because no ones good, but because the good stuff is hard to find. Im done with this, I just urge everyone to try and become better artists. Remember that the worst critiques are often the ones you learn the most from, and a nice "wow, what a cool pic, youre my best friend" comment doesnt do anything. Ive seen people move to othe art sites (albeit slowly) because they knoe exactly what I mean. The thing that keeps Renderosity alive (it's popularity contest) will be its demise because people can only take so much. People that have the authority on this site, mods or admins or whoever should think about the quality and quanity of work here. Just a thought.

There are no cash prizes for being voted in the "Hot 20"....Tho, I'd offer to bu you a burger at the fast food restaurant of your choice when your get your first image in the Hot 20..:-) Just trying to cast a little humor on this... This brings up a very valid question to me... Why do you create your art? Do you create it to get lotsa "ooohs and aaahhs" from other members? Or do you create it for personal expression? Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with doing a specific type of image because you know it will "sell" That's what commercial art is all about right?

I'm not giving you a "bunch of excuses".... "People that have the authority on this site, mods or admins or whoever should think about the quality and quanity of work here." Renderosity is(to some degree) a learning site.. We encourage members to grow and learn along the way.. Not everyone is a "master"...It's a part of the growing process.. I, for one , really enjoy watching new artists progress in their work. To me, that's what it's all about. Growing and sharing and learning...

Yes, but you dont grow if people lie to you and say a picture is "excellent" when in fact it could use alot of work. Lying to someone and giving them b.s. critiques while voting them into the "hot20" makes the person think that they dont need to improve because they have the words and votes of their friends. I could point out alot of examples where I see this happening. If you want to make a picture just to get applause from your friends, you should do it somewhere else. This was supposed to be a legitamate art site and its not. Its more a trash can full of artwork that wouldnt make it on any other site. Perhaps some of the more "popular" people should at least try to do what Im saying. Post an image at another art site, gfxartist or digitalart.org and see how far you get. The majority of the people here are blind to art, and just because they can upload a picture, they think it is art. Whats the point in having a beginner gallery, if all the beginners are in the poser or 2d hot20s? So there isnt any progress being made.

So what do you suggest we do? I'm all ears....

Well I have to say something here I was a beginner here in 1999 and if it hadn't been for people telling me I was doing great I would have just stopped creating. Sometimes giving a little praise is a good thing. Yes you can suggest in a curtious way how they might change something to better the pic but to come right out and tell them they stink (in so many words) would just cause them to rethink doing it in the first place. I have had most people here give me great encouragement by this kind of praise and suggestions. It helped me to grow. I am no way as good as some here but am on my way. SndCastie

I critiqued a picture once and was threatened if I did it again, I would be hacked. I had to create another account because people would whine when I gave them constructive criticism. I dont really care anymore. For all the future artists and people who want to go somewhere with their work, if you cant handle criticism, then I suggest you find something else to do. The minute you send something to a potential client, theyre not going to kiss your ass and tell you what you want to hear. Theyre going to tell you what they want, and if you cant do it, they will find someone else that can. Everyone has to get better and hone their skills. No matter what artist you ask, be it a digital artist, traditional painter, etc, they all say they are not good enough and need to get better. For the ones who are hanging around in the hot20 thinking their newest 5 minute render is a piece of art, stop lying to yourself, because its not going any farther than this webpage. Im stopping here, because I dont really want to start a flame war. Theres no reason for people to get defensive over criticism. Its another tool to help you learn. I say Renderosity needs to get rid of the ranking system and voting for awhile so people can stand back and see what they are doing right or wrong.

"I critiqued a picture once and was threatened if I did it again, I would be hacked." You do NOT need to tolerate that sort of behavior... We don't allow that here.. personal threats are a direct TOS violation.. Contact any staff member.. We will resolve it.. personally, I don't rate images, nor do I allow ratings on my own...

Personal attacks may not be tolerated but several artists who only posted their art here were sent anonymous e-mails to their home mail boxes for posting art opposed to the Iraq war; some left Rosity because of it. Some, myself included, stayed but with a completely revised opinion of Renderosity. Seems ironic that we went to war to restore freedom of expression and speeech in Iraq, yet that same attitude is not expressed by some members towards others.

Here is a quote from Frank Zappa from his "The Real Frank Zappa Book" that may be relevant here.....maybe this is sort of out of left field, maybe not...BTW - it has the SH#* word in it so read no further if you are likely to be offended!

"The most important thing in art is The Frame. For painting literally; for other arts: figuratively - because, without this humble appliance, you can't know where The Art stops and The Real World begins.
You have to put a 'box' around it because otherwise, what is that shit on the wall?
If John Cage, for instance, says, "I'm putting a contact microphone on my throat, and I'm going to drink carrot juice, and that's my composition," then his gurgling qualifies as his composition because he put a frame around it and said so. "Take it or leave it, I now will this to be music." After that it's a matter of taste. Without the frame-as-announced, it's just a guy swallowing carrot juice." ~ Frank Zappa

Regarding the statement "This was supposed to be a legitamate(sic) art site and its not Its more a trash can full of artwork" hmmm...who determines what is a legitimate artwork huh? Well, that's why I included the quote above.
Opinions about artistic merit are like assh*les, everybody has got one. It is all subjective. For anyone to say they know what is "good" art or "bad" art sounds a bit elitist to me...If someone wants constructive critique about how to render something better or get such and such an effect or look in an image, great, that's what the comments are for. If people get antsy when they receive constructive feedback, then they are being too sensitive and probably shouldn't allow comments.
However if people troll in comments, with no constructive feedback as content, then this is against the TOS and should be reported to a mod or admin so it can be looked into. Out and out harassment such as mentioned above and threats of hacking are serious, as pushinfaders says these incidents will be regarded and dealt with seriously. As for the HOT 20 and votes etc, well - popularity is popularity, it follows no artistic guidlines or criteria and I don't see how it ever could, it's just what people like and vote for (if they take the time) ~ like voting for politicians it doesn't attribute any particular values to what (or who) is being voted for (ie. good, bad, honest, dishonest), it's a just a poll for heavens sake...

I like that quote punkclown....it does indeed sum up pretty much what we can 'see' here or not :)

"Opinions about artistic merit are like asshles, everybody has got one. It is all subjective."* LMAO!!! Nice one, PC. :o) But seriously though, critiques and commentaries do go a long way in developing an artist's craft. Sure, there is a lot of friendly banter and even empty flattery that goes on in here. You'd be foolish to think that this isn't the case in the "real world" as well. In my humble opinion, there are many, many, many artists here who are very serious about their work. And most of them can distinguish between a passing compliment and a serious dissection of their endeavors. Whichever the case may be you will find that, most of the time, positive encouragement leaves a better after taste than negative reinforcement. But then again, there are amateurs and rank hobbyists like myself, who simply derive an enjoyment from creating something and then sharing it with the community at large. I'm notorious for posting nothing but WIP images in my gallery, but I try to learn from the feedback I get. Some comments are from long time friends, who are just dropping by and saying hello... other comments from people I have never had the pleasure of befriending yet... also dropping in just to say hello. :o) Nothing wrong with that, right? Every once in a while though, I will get a comment that really makes me stop and take another look at what it is I think I am doing. My point is that artistic expression, and ultimately it's enjoyment, is a personal experience for me. The imposition of my taste in art (or the profound lack of it) on others wouldn't be good form. And I would hate to think that my own (malformed) appreciation of what I enjoy had to be coordinated, moderated, or administered by someone else. :o) Cheers! M

Hi d_hood,

perhaps you should reduce your arrogance a bit. Not only hard work and sweat counts for what might be called art but ideas and brain also. I cannot help you, I will not delete my post The First Day in the Life of... that is or was in the 2D Hot20. Even if you send me more insulting IMs.
I have made this image in a few moments, and yes, it is simple, but it was its simplicity that surprised me when I saw what kind of effect it has on some viewers (not on you I suppose). It is opinions like yours that can make Renderosity an ugly place.
Create your kind of art, enjoy the comments you get on your own images, say, when you don't like my images (how many did you view?), but don't make a stupid crusade of it. There is always an artist that will be better than I am, and there is always someone whose images I like more than yours. But I would never go and write this under every of your images.
It is not only friendship that made people comment under my images. I tested the design with pencil and paper before I made the image posted here. In my eyes the image transports some emotion. It has something to do with the feelings between a parent and his/her child. I have little children, I feel these emotions and others could feel them also.

Regards,
Andreas

Art is a terrible wonderful thing. :o) For the artist-creator it can be a powerful and personal experience, so it is understandable how we can be passionate about these art works we produce. However, there is a place for personalities and passions... a critical discussion on one person's perception of what might be happening to our community needs to focus on that issue. Let's try to keep this thread on topic, please. And it would help to remember that disagreements need not be conducted with disrespect. :o) Just a friendly reminder. M

"I just urge everyone to try and become better artists."

Gee, what a novel concept. Why didn't the rest of us think of that?
Did it ever occur to you that this site has beginners as members? Heaven forbid they start somewhere and post what they learn.

Here's a news flash for you, telling someone their images should be deleted is not, in fact, "constructive criticizm". In all your arrogance would you accept constructive criticizm yourself?

You don't hit the ground running. Your first attempt will not be "Hot 20 material" (and please, the hot 20 is not an accolade. it's over run by one group who feels it's important). This site is not exclusive to professionals.
Deal with it.